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Thread: Catalan referendum

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfe View Post
    Stumbled upon something a friend of my Spanish friend has posted:
     
    “To all my friends abroad, after reading the texts, pictures and videos that some of you are sharing and commenting today, I kindly ask you to please get the facts straight and read the whole story before getting publicly outraged about the so-called disproportionate violence from the Spanish Police, against the so-called peaceful voters; and most importantly, before getting moved and touched and sympathize with an apparently democratic, liberal, beautiful and idealistic movement as the secession of Catalonia can look like at first sight. The reality is far from that.
    The illegality of the vote is irrelevant and the infinite irregularities surrounding it are irrelevant as well. All foreign media have informed abundantly about how the vote had been declared illegal by the Constitutional Court, about how it was approved in the Catalan House of Representatives without regard to any of its own laws, bypassing all possible statutes and not observing any legal procedures or guarantees. We have all seen that not even half the polls were duly monitored, how countless people voted in multiple stations, how the census included minors and deceased and how ballot boxes were placed in the streets for anybody to vote without control.
    We all know that already. Yet it is not important nor the point. A lot of things that are legal are immoral, and vice-versa. History does not judge events by its legality but by its legitimacy. Laws change every day, and what is illegal today can be legalized tomorrow. Even if all those irregularities had not happened, and even if all regulations had been observed, the situation would not be altered.
    What matters here is not whether the vote yesterday was legal or not; what matters is that it was illegitimate, because it tried to grant a few the right to decide over what belongs to all. Catalonia is NOT the exclusive property of the people who were born in Catalonia, or of the people who live in Catalonia, or of the people who call themselves Catalans.
    Catalonia belongs to all Spaniards. Catalonia is the heritage and patrimony of us all; and it is so, not just because our young Constitution declares it explicitly, but because we have all worked for Catalonia, fought for Catalonia, contributed, committed, and served to Catalonia. Catalonia has been part of Spain for more than 500 years, never ever having been an independent State (unlike Scotland, FYI), and has been part of the Spanish Nation for more than 1.000 years. And it has been so because our ancestors, our fathers and our grandfathers have fought for it. Because they worked together to build it, because they shed their sweat and blood, fought in countless wars and died for it.
    The bridges, roads, dams, ports and cities of Catalonia were not built by Catalans only, but by all the people in Spain. The wars that freed Spain and Catalonia of foreign enemies were not fought by Catalans only, but by all Spaniards. The Reconquista that defeated and expelled the Islamic invaders from Spain and Catalonia was not fought by Catalans only, but by all Spaniards. So was the liberal revolution that brought a modern State and Constitution, or the peaceful transition from a dictatorship to the current democracy. We did all that together. Catalonia is part of the United Nations, of NATO, of the European Union and of the Euro Zone because it was part of Spain when we joined these Institutions, and we achieved so with the effort of all the Spanish people. Catalan banks have been rescued with Spanish money. Catalan pensions, education and health care are paid by us all.
    We all paid the Barcelona 1992 Olympics or the high speed train to Barcelona. We have all together built what Catalonia is today.
    And we did so because we are a Nation. Because we have a history together and we together have a project for the future.
    That entitles us all, ALL Spaniards, to enjoy Catalonia and to decide over it. Today I have the right to go freely to Barcelona. Why are a few entitled to deprive us all of that right? I can go to work in Catalonia if I wish, to live there or to peacefully retire if I want. Who are these few and with what right they can prevent us all from that? On what grounds?
    Again, Catalonia has never been an independent State and has never decided to freely join Spain. It has always been part of Spain. The same goes the other way round. Today, citizens of Catalonia can move around Spain as they wish, and enjoy a world of rights for being Spanish citizens. They can establish themselves wherever they want. They can work, go to school, to university, to hospitals, to a football match, to cathedrals or museums. Who are these few to take those rights away from all of them? They have always had and always will have those rights, because they have earned it as Spaniards, by contributing to this country and Nation for generations and centuries.
    We have done great things together and we wish to do more. If a few do not feel Spanish, they are free to go wherever they want. This is a free country and they can go at any time and moment. But they cannot steal us a part of Spain that rightfully belongs to us all. A part of our land, a part of our history, a part of our sentiment, a part of us. I refuse to accept that a few can take what is ours by right, and has ALWAYS, ALWAYS been.
    Please do not get fooled by the black or white childish argument that “to vote is always right”. To vote is NOT always right, regardless of whether legal or not, the same way that voting on torturing, beheading and killing every tall or short or blonde or bald person would not be right.
    The vote in Catalonia yesterday was not only illegal, it was above all illegitimate and immoral, because it was sheer robbery. And that is all that matters. Plain and simple.
    Cheers to all!”


    And this.

    https://www.facebook.com/spara2nunka...5961098054728/

    Since most people are forgetting this perspective on Catalan independence...
    The quote in your post is probably the worst I've read about the topic.
    By this logic no region will ever get separation, no country will gt freedom out of colonization
    The separation of any region has been always about its own people, who ever try to argue against that has lost it IMHO

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    The quote in your post is probably the worst I've read about the topic.
    By this logic no region will ever get separation, no country will gt freedom out of colonization
    The separation of any region has been always about its own people, who ever try to argue against that has lost it IMHO
    But that's where it gets tricky, catalonia is not comparable to a colony where a homogenous population is ruled by a culturally foreign power. Most catalans today are part spanish, like xavi who's father is from andalusia, but that statement in itself is sort of dumb because there's really not enough cultural difference between catalans and "spaniards" i.e andalusians, castiles, asturians, etc to really make that distinction. A good friend of mine was born in madrid, but moved to barcelona when he was a baby and was raised there. He is bilingual of course, his parents are both madrilenos. So is he catalan or spanish? What he and most reasonable people say, is that being spanish and catalan is not mutually exclusive.

    I would have had sympathy for the independence of catalonia in the 50s and 60s, when catalan culture was opressed by a fascist government. The reason why i'm personally anti-independence even from a ethical point of view is because the motivation behind it now is not cultural freedom or autonomy, which is something catalonia has enjoyed in the last 35 years to a large degree. The motivation is an artificial nationalistic fervor that was created deliberately by men like jordi pujol and now puigdemont to detract from their own incompetence and corruption. And this is no joke, catalan nationalism has become toxic and repressive in recent years. Said good friend of mine was threatened with expulsion from university when he was holding lectures in castellano because 90 % of his students were from other parts of spain or foreigners who couldn't speak catalan. There's always two sides of a coin, as they say.

    That being said, the police brutality was absolutely atrocious and completely unnecessary. I'm totally with pique and others who say that people should be allowed to vote and express their feelings. But that's more down to rajoy and his goons in the partido popular being the exact same incompentent nationalistic idiots as puigdemont.

    I really hope both get kicked out of power by people on both sides who just say fuck you assholes, we wanna live in peace.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by khorne View Post
    But that's where it gets tricky, catalonia is not comparable to a colony where a homogenous population is ruled by a culturally foreign power. Most catalans today are part spanish, like xavi who's father is from andalusia, but that statement in itself is sort of dumb because there's really not enough cultural difference between catalans and "spaniards" i.e andalusians, castiles, asturians, etc to really make that distinction. A good friend of mine was born in madrid, but moved to barcelona when he was a baby and was raised there. He is bilingual of course, his parents are both madrilenos. So is he catalan or spanish? What he and most reasonable people say, is that being spanish and catalan is not mutually exclusive.

    I would have had sympathy for the independence of catalonia in the 50s and 60s, when catalan culture was opressed by a fascist government. The reason why i'm personally anti-independence even from a ethical point of view is because the motivation behind it now is not cultural freedom or autonomy, which is something catalonia has enjoyed in the last 35 years to a large degree. The motivation is an artificial nationalistic fervor that was created deliberately by men like jordi pujol and now puigdemont to detract from their own incompetence and corruption. And this is no joke, catalan nationalism has become toxic and repressive in recent years. Said good friend of mine was threatened with expulsion from university when he was holding lectures in castellano because 90 % of his students were from other parts of spain or foreigners who couldn't speak catalan. There's always two sides of a coin, as they say.

    That being said, the police brutality was absolutely atrocious and completely unnecessary. I'm totally with pique and others who say that people should be allowed to vote and express their feelings. But that's more down to rajoy and his goons in the partido popular being the exact same incompentent nationalistic idiots as puigdemont.

    I really hope both get kicked out of power by people on both sides who just say fuck you assholes, we wanna live in peace.
    Every region belongs to its own people in such situation, an argument around it is flawed.
    I do think that with a legit referendum people will hesitate just like Scotland did based on the points you made, a lot of people are already mixed there and there is a lot to lose etc. But you can't change it to "it belongs to all Spain so let all Spain vote for it"

  4. #124
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    Question, if Catalonia pulls it off and does become independ with la liga boycotting us. Is it possible we wont be able to pull a monaco and just be stuck playing pele matches like a whale in a pond?
    Barcelona would become obsolete.
    6RACIES XAVI

  5. #125
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    What is the main reason of catalonia wanting independence right now? Has to be more than cultural difference. Many countries have massive internal culture cariation but they don't disintegrate and even live peacefully.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neymessi View Post
    What is the main reason of catalonia wanting independence right now? Has to be more than cultural difference. Many countries have massive internal culture cariation but they don't disintegrate and even live peacefully.
    Financial more than anything by sounds of it.

    They think will be better off away from Spain.

    If they were to be worse off I would bet it would be nowhere near a close vote and they would stay part of Spain.

  7. #127
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    Independent Catalonia will suffer in economic terms for some years until recovery, that's inevitable and normal. Politically they will suffer for some time, too. Given the unwillingness of the Spanish people and parliament Spain will vetoe/boycott all membership negotiations concerning Catalonia joining the European Union.

    The question is who is the bigger loser in this case - Spain or Catalonia? I still believe it's Spain, they lose 15-20% of their economy (which recently began to recover) and population. The banking system might leave Catalonia, but that's part of the game. New banks will fill the void in time. Also there are no guarantees that Basque country or Galicia won't come out with their own independence agendas after these events. Matter of fact majority of the Basque people support the Catalan independence.

    What concerns me the most is the faith of F.C. Barcelona. Staying in La Liga seems to be out of question, although the Spanish football loses half of its marketing, revenues and glory. La Liga turns into a Bundesliga with Real Madrid becoming the Bayern Munich of their league. Barcelona might not be allowed to compete in UEFA competitions for some reason - again political decisions, allocation to another league or the Catalan football federation not being a UEFA member. The good news could be the disintegration of RCD Espanyol.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windhook View Post
    La Liga turns into a Bundesliga with Real Madrid becoming the Bayern Munich of their league. Barcelona might not be allowed to compete in UEFA competitions for some reason - again political decisions, allocation to another league or the Catalan football federation not being a UEFA member. The good news could be the disintegration of RCD Espanyol.
    1) You have noticed that Bayern is actually now in a position, where they have to actively try and avert disaster of going into another slump for a few years, similar to late 2000s? Bundesliga will hardly be a one horse race if they don't invest in their team and leave it up to egos to sort themselves out. Bosz is hardly a master tactician that'll be able to beat them consistently, but Dortmund have a far brighter few years ahead if they keep going like they are.
    2) The main reason it would become the Scottish League is not really anything to do with RM, rather the backroom culture of clubs like Valencia or Sevilla who simply may not make the transition and exploring the reasons for them to bridge the gap. And that is Simeone's biggest mission at Atleti and the reason he stubbornly refuses to go. The brand value of the rest of the league has been steadily rising and they failed to build the culture of steady enhancement. Giving silly contracts to players and bringing in loanees who don't really give a fuck isn't the way to go. I'd hope that they keep up the form this season, but like with Sampaoli's team, it usually takes one stumble for the groups they assemble.
    So while Barca leaving the league would be fairly tragic financially in the short term, many teams would have a huge opportunity. Because while they may not earn or get watched by the same amounts of people worldwide, players would automatically be able encouraged by only really having 1 or 2 teams to beat for the title as opposed to 3. CL premiums would be guaranteed to 1 more team. A team like Villarreal would benefit massively. Would make no difference to mismanaged ones though since Lim has a history of throwing money at Nanis, Negredos.. telling Prandelli to piss off.. getting caught into a RIDICULOUS Zaza deal .. nor Seville, who are only a little better than Liverpool at keeping their assets and it doesn't seem likely for them to keep up post-Monchi.
    Last edited by Wolfe; 6th October 2017 at 05:10 PM.
    People are boring.

  9. #129
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    1) The recent Bayern slump of form is temporary. It was reported in non-tabloid German media that leading players in the club were unhappy with Ancelotti, the same guy you use as avatar. Dortmund's amazing form in the Bundesliga will end at some point, obviously. All in all every league that's big on the market needs a change of pace. Anyway Dortmund leading (and eventually winning) the Bundesliga is not what cost Ancelotti his position. Everyone knows he lost a lot of confidence after the defeat against Real Madrid in CL last season. The demolition by PSG sealed his faith.

    2) I couldn't care less for the Spanish La Liga after F.C. Barcelona are banned from that league. I hope Real Oviedo return and win it 5 row in the 2020's.

    Barcelona leaving/ban would have serious short term effects on the Catalan club and LONG TERM effects on all the rest of Spanish clubs. There are already professional clubs in Spain that are financially in ruins - remember Eibar were saved from relegation all thanks to Elche's bankruptcy?

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windhook View Post
    1) The recent Bayern slump of form is temporary. It was reported in non-tabloid German media that leading players in the club were unhappy with Ancelotti, the same guy you use as avatar. Dortmund's amazing form in the Bundesliga will end at some point, obviously. All in all every league that's big on the market needs a change of pace. Anyway Dortmund leading (and eventually winning) the Bundesliga is not what cost Ancelotti his position. Everyone knows he lost a lot of confidence after the defeat against Real Madrid in CL last season. The demolition by PSG sealed his faith.
    Hang on, are you even borderline suggesting here that these players (R&R primarily that is) did NOT behave like a bunch of impatient, spoiled and out of touch cunts who realised they are pretty much becoming expendable in a new system Ancelotti was implementing? Why d'you think he brought in James and let Costa go on loan? To strengthen the wings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Windhook
    I couldn't care less for the Spanish La Liga after F.C. Barcelona are banned from that league. I hope Real Oviedo return and win it 5 row in the 2020's.

    Barcelona leaving/ban would have serious short term effects on the Catalan club and LONG TERM effects on all the rest of Spanish clubs. There are already professional clubs in Spain that are financially in ruins - remember Eibar were saved from relegation all thanks to Elche's bankruptcy?
    Short term effects on the Catalan club who would find themselves without a league to play in unless Ligue 1 takes pity...

    Who even mentioned Eibar? Using a club who got promoted 1 or 2 years ago in this argument? There are a plenty of teams who are simply misusing the resources ATM. Hardly long term effects on them since a window of opportunity would open and the clubs would HAVE TO pull together in order to keep the league on the European stage. Problem being VCF and others do not seem ready for it.
    People are boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfe View Post
    Hang on
    Obviously you are far removed from reality of the situation in Bayern and Spain. Just because it doesn't suit you.

    Also repeatedly you seem to have a problem with Valencia C.F which I don't understand.

    Good night, mate!

  12. #132
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    So Puigdemont backed down from declaring independence and instead called for negotiations with Madrid. Negotiations? What negotiations? Certainly Madrid will not negotiate for Catalonia's succession. More autonomy for Catalonia? Less money sent to Madrid? So the whole vote thing was just a bargaining chip used to force Madrid to yield more power to Catalonia? And it backfired, with Madrid condemning his speech and not willing to yield at all.

    I have no dog in this fight and I have no preference of their independence or not but I felt this whole thing was managed very poorly. Initially he was supposed to declare independence within 48 hours after the result of the vote came back. After Madrid threatened to dissolve the Catalan government and the EU turning their backs on them the separatists basically chickened out. The supposed declaration was pushed out to today. And his speech was postponed by more than an hour as the Catalan separatists sought some last-minute mediation. This whole thing made Puigdemont and his fellow Catalan separatists in the Catalan government look like fools. Did they even have a plan? Did they not foresee resistance from both Madrid and Brussels?
    Sóc Culer.

  13. #133
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    No, he deferred a declaration of independence and basically told Madrid the ball is in your court. If not then we'll declare for independence in a few weeks anyway.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAK View Post
    No, he deferred a declaration of independence and basically told Madrid the ball is in your court. If not then we'll declare for independence in a few weeks anyway.
    Madrid will probably just tell him to try it and see what happens.

    The vote was a farce that cant be used to declare anything anyway.

  15. #135
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    shit time for me to go Watch them because every season is a potential last season. Still i think the process of independance is slower than what people might think.
    kilometers matter ..