Arthur

Gnidrologist said:

I actually was mad enough to watch the whole match (started at 3.30 AM my time). Impressions - think he played absolutely perfect match.
You have to understand that this Brazil lineup was chock full of incredible attacking power in the faces of Nyemar, Coutinho (who both were linking up among themselves like mad) and Douglas Costa, Richarlison, who both were monsters (that Rucharlison guy - how did he end up in Everton and not premium club?). He stayed also a share of time in the second half, when Villian, Paqueta and some other less known, but mostly attackers were subbed in.

What impressed me is how great his movement is off the ball, both defensively and when in possession. He seems to have really gotten some clues from Xavi in how to constantly be on the move so as to appear in the right time in the right place to release the pressure from the teammate, who either is pressed hard or doesn't know what to do with the ball. In defense, he is a pressing monster and had quite a few key interceptions and tackles after which he easily retained the ball by dragging the markers by their noses and either passed it further or drawn foul. He's very gritty, quick and always on the move. Have some workhorse genes in him.

Now the safe passing meme is just bullshit. He really does pick his passes with scrutiny, not just because it looks interesting. Don't remember him being dispossessed or misspassed once, except for couple of long balls. The thing is he doesn't just safe-pass to the guy that is nearest to him like young Roberto and other shysters, he constantly makes these turns and looks around, where is the more space and what would be most optimal solution for continuation. He did some sharp forwarded passes and even darting runs, which where perfectly calculated and composed. It was obvious that his teammates trusted him to find the ways for transition. He was perfect pivot for a team that has insanly attacking minded forwards and meh defenders (except Marcinhyos), providing the balance and and transitioning. Very calming effect on the team i think.

Admittedly i'm maybe too optimistic and Salvador is a shitty team. So let's hear a tome of BBZ's greatest works now.

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Great observation. I guess people are expecting 2 or 3 assists and a rocket goal against El Salvador. Arthur understands his role on the pitch and will perform to the specific duties that the manager gives him.

I think the worry is that he gets too passive and never breaks out of the mold to risk or increase the tempo when the moments desire. Similar to how Rakitic has transformed and lost a lot of the edge that he had in his Sevilla days.

Comparing to Xavi, he was also risk-aversive and defensive in his output in his early days. It was only when Radomir Antic came in, shifted him further up field and took the shackles off him and gave him freedom to create and look for through balls did his offensive game get unlocked. After that the rest is history. Arthur might just need that a-ha moment with the right manager at the right moment too.

Xavi was 23 when Antic joined the club.

This forum is a bit crazy with certain people comparing Xavi stats at 29/30 in his absolute prime with 10 seasons or so of LaLiga experience in the first team to Arthur who has just moved to Europe.

Yes, Xavi was very conservative in Van Gaal days although he did his specific duties well. I think some people don't remember that.

Porque said:

Great observation. I guess people are expecting 2 or 3 assists and a rocket goal against El Salvador. Arthur understands his role on the pitch and will perform to the specific duties that the manager gives him.

I think the worry is that he gets too passive and never breaks out of the mold to risk or increase the tempo when the moments desire. Similar to how Rakitic has transformed and lost a lot of the edge that he had in his Sevilla days.

Comparing to Xavi, he was also risk-aversive and defensive in his output in his early days. It was only when Radomir Antic came in, shifted him further up field and took the shackles off him and gave him freedom to create and look for through balls did his offensive game get unlocked. After that the rest is history. Arthur might just need that a-ha moment with the right manager at the right moment too.

Xavi was 23 when Antic joined the club.

This forum is a bit crazy with certain people comparing Xavi stats at 29/30 in his absolute prime with 10 seasons or so of LaLiga experience in the first team to Arthur who has just moved to Europe.

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Gnidrologist said:

Yes, Xavi was very conservative in Van Gaal days although he did his specific duties well. I think some people don't remember that.

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Again, let's accept that EVERY player has both pros and cons, the world will be a simpler place then.

Now, since I am not a fan of Arthur since he plays too slow and too safe for my taste, I will write down what we know about him for now.
Good sides:
1. he can take the ball out of our half from our box into an opponent's half, the same as Busi/Xavi. He is better in that part than Rakitic, Rafinha and other midfielders.
2. when he has the ball and when he is pressed, he is good in keeping the ball, shielding and passing it safely. Better than Rakitic, for example, in that area also

Where he is bad for now:
1. playing almost only shortpasses all the time. And what annoys me: he plays always to the closets player near him.
Imagine that he has the ball, and that on the left he has Busquets 2 meters away from him and Coutinho 5 meters behind Busquets, so, something like:
Coutinho (without a marker) - Busquets (without a marker) - Arthur (with the ball).
Now, if you want to speed up a game a little, IF BOTH Busquets and Coutinho are free without markers, often it is better to pass the ball directly to Coutinho and not to lose time with: Arthur to Busquets, Busquets to Coutinho.
When you look at Arthur's passes from the stands or from a Tv, in 90% of cases you know whom he is going to pass: to the closest player near him even though he has other options (players without markers).
So, not only that he isn't taking risks with TRUE forward passes when you pass through a defensive line.
He also isn't trying long ball to switch sides faster.
And this thing which I described when he is ALWAYS passing the the closest player even though he has other options.

What we don't know:
His actual defending.
We DO know that he is good at pressing (Pep's style) when you want to get the possession back fast.
He makes some tackles this way.
On the other hand, we don't know yet is he good in defending when the opponent has the ball and when we defend around the box (against big CL teams) where you don't need that high pressing, but being calm, mark players and mostly intercept passes (and tackle dribbles).
So, these tackles and interceptions when we defend in a true way are different than "pressing" high up the pitch.

For example: Messi is good in pressing from time to time and he can steal some balls that way.
But he is bad in "a true defending" when the opponent plays a slow possession game and our team is in our half.
Dembele also can tackle an opponent in high pressing, but is horrible in actual defending when we defend as a team in our own half.

I may be biased, I am not one of fans who discovered Xavi in Pep's days.
And I am not one of those who think that he was average before Pep.
In early 00s, my favorite players were Rivaldo, Xavi and Luis Enrique (due to a fighting spirit).
During Rijkaard, I always loved Xavi more than Deco.
And during Pep, I always loved Xavi more than Iniesta.

Anyway, for me, even in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, Xavi was very good to awesome.
And imo, NO, he never played even close to Arthur (in terms of being conservative and safe).

I know, it is stupid to compare players with Xavi, but imo, I have never seen such a conservative passer at Barca since 2003'.
Since some guys here posted that Xavi was too safe before 2003, let's check that, for example, against Real Madrid, team who won 3 CL titles in 5 years back then.

Now, in this video Xavi was 22 years old.
Please take a look at a few things:
1. he is NOT passing the ball to the CLOSEST player ALL the time. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't.
If he has 2-3 players free, he will sometimes pass the ball to the player who is far away from him, to speed up a play and transition.
2. further, look at amount of his long balls forward, or long balls to switch sides.
3. or just look at the amount of his forward passes between players (I call those TRUE forward passes, and not when you pass forward to your fullback who stands unmarked 1 meter higher up the pitch from you, so in theory that is also a forward pass).

Anyway, Xavi aged 22 against Real:

Also, always remember, each player both has:
1. a natural talent
2. a learned skill

Let's say that it can be 50:50.
Now, if a player is a natural dribbler, like Adama, he has 50/50 in natural talent.
With trainings, IQ, tactical understanding, he can improve even more.
On the other hand, someone like Gomes or Samper, who isn't a natural dribble, can learn how to dribble ONLY to a certain extent, but mostly will never come close to "natural" guys.

So, Arthur's vision and creativity can be improved over time.
But if he isn't naturally gifted in that area (and I think that he isn't), he can't improve THAT much as natural guys.

Now, once again, go and watch Arthur's passes in any match, or from yesterday.
9 out of 10 or 19 out of 20 passes are extremely safe and predictable shortpasses to the guy who is closest to him.
Now watch his safepasses to the closest guy:

xXKonan said:

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BBZ8800 said:

Where he is bad for now:
1. playing almost only shortpasses all the time. And what annoys me: he plays always to the closets player near him.
Imagine that he has the ball, and that on the left he has Busquets 2 meters away from him and Coutinho 5 meters behind Busquets, so, something like:
Coutinho (without a marker) - Busquets (without a marker) - Arthur (with the ball).
Now, if you want to speed up a game a little, IF BOTH Busquets and Coutinho are free without markers, often it is better to pass the ball directly to Coutinho and not to lose time with: Arthur to Busquets, Busquets to Coutinho.

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That's really not true in a general way. It depends on a lot of factors. It's not true that the longer pass is always the best. You also have to think about possible follow up options for the one who receives the ball. Maybe if I pass to the closer guy, that guy has access to other players and can develop the game in more ways. If I skip that player automatically and play longer you will basically put a lot of men behind the ball and limit your options up front.

This approach is better for counter attacking teams, which seems to be your preferred style. Positional teams, the ones who play a possession game usually develop a passing system that minimizes risks. Which is why long passes who are far more easily intercepted and harder to control are not very often picked.

And, obviously, he doesn't play short passes all the time. He does usually play short passes, as our midfielders usually do. It's part of our style. Passing in short spaces and making combinations. We don't play direct football.

serghei said:

cut

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serghei, not directly related to your post, wanted to ask you a question. Are you - all things considered (such as movement, attackers in front, role and so on) - content with the creativity Arthur has shown since coming here?

I honestly can’t comprehend how can anyone compare him to Xavi right now. From what I have seen so far his passing is more simmilar to the one of Busi not Xavi. Xavi had some wonderful forward passing skills while I haven't seen one from Arthur so far. He is not breaking the lines he is not finding or creating space, so far he is only passing the ball to the first person next to him and he is doing that in a slow-motion mode. I must admit I am still not on the hype train.

serghei said:

This approach is better for counter attacking teams, which seems to be your preferred style. Positional teams, the ones who play a possession game usually develop a passing system that minimizes risks. Which is why long passes who are far more easily intercepted and harder to control are not very often picked.

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Football is evolving all the time, and imo: faster football is the next step for all big teams.
In 90s, football had midfielders like Prosinecki (Croatia, Barcelona and Real) who were walking on a pitch without too much running and with zero defending.
Those type of players can't play serious football today, 20-30 years later.
Then, we had Italian CAMs like Totti without too much defending and without that much movement and running who's duties were through balls and scoring.
Those players don't exist in a modern era anymore. Or at least, not in that way.
In late 90s, Gattuso was the only guy who was running like crazy around the pitch. He was a miracle back then.
Today, every team has 1-2-3 midfielders like Gattuso.
In 90s, in general, footballers were running less, they had a weaker stamina and players didn't need as much muscles as today.
Today's players are more like robots compared with 90s.
Players still have technique, but back then it was, let's say: 10/10 technique and 3/10 physique.
While today, big CL teams have 10/10 technique and 9/10 physique.

In 90s, nobody played 4231 for example.
Majority played 442 with 2 classical Cfs, and 2 classical wingers and only 2 midfielders.
Today, more or less no one plays a classical 442 with only 2 true midfielders.

About extreme possession game, imo, that is a part of the past.
In league competitions, where you have a lot of weaker teams like Getafe and Levante, possession football and slow football is still good.
But on a CL level where you play against 50:50 teams, slow football usually don't work anymore.
As said a lot of times, after 2011, all CL winners played faster than classical Barca: Chelsea, Bayern, Real, Lucho's Barca.
And also, all teams who were successful at Euros, World cups and Copa Americas lately.
When I say faster: I am not talking about 20 fast passes/triangles in the middle of the pitch (fast passes without moving forward too much), but 2-3 fast passes to get the ball forward as fast as possible while the opponent didn't have time to park the bus yet.

The last time when a classical possession based team won something was: Barca in 2009 and 2011 and Spain in 2008, 2010 and 2012.
After that it was all about:
Pace, direct football, counters.
Or like Real Madrid/Lucho's Barca=where we had a possession football in a modern way with way more direct and vertical play.

In that sense, I said a few times, Arthur looks like a player who fell from a timemachine.
He looks like a perfect sub for Pep's Barca from 2008-2012.
How he will fit in a modern football, I have no idea.

Further, his conservative style of play is more suitable for a pivot in 433 (Busi), or for a double pivot in 4231.
I have no idea how will he fit in 433 together with Busquets.
I guess that we will lack in a creative department with those two on a field together.

On the other hand, if he will be our pivot in 433 in the future, after Busi, then we have another problem: all big teams TODAY have faster, bigger, stronger defensive midfielders (Casemiro's type) and then you can have 2 technical guys infront of him and you have a balance, a mix of technique and physique in midfield.
On the other hand, if Arthur is our future defensive midfielder, then we are screwed again, since we will be the lightest and the shortest team around again.
All other teams are getting stronger and faster (and equally as technical), while we aren't moving in that direction.

You'll hear something odd from me now: Seeing how Arthur plays, forces me to jump on Frenkie's hype train and saying: please board, buy Frenkie, he looks more like a guy from the next, faster era of football.

Anyway, let's see whether and how much can Arthur improve his creativity.
For now, he doesn't look like (imo) even close to a level of Barca's starter.
Again, especially if you consider how football is evolving towards more pace, faster football (and what people don't like to hear: more athleticism on top of technique).

Raketa10 said:

I honestly can’t comprehend how can anyone compare him to Xavi right now. From what I have seen so far his passing is more simmilar to the one of Busi not Xavi. Xavi had some wonderful forward passing skills while I haven't seen one from Arthur so far. He is not breaking the lines he is not finding or creating space, so far he is only passing the ball to the first person next to him and he is doing that in a slow-motion mode. I must admit I am still not on the hype train.

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Problem is you're assuming that everyone is comparing Arthur to Xavi in terms of talent but it comes down to style actually.

The problem I have with the Xavi argument is just how badly people are trying to use him to make other players like Arthur look bad in terms of talent. Xavi was a very rare talent that no one will be able to replicate and despite that he too wasn't a perfect player at the age of 22 either. He had quality but he really exploded when he was around the age of 28 years old up right until he started to decline around 2012-13 as his legs started to go.

Does Arthur need to improve? yes he does and his passing between the lines will get better once he gets more gametime and adjusts to Europe.

xXKonan said:

Problem is you're assuming that everyone is comparing Arthur to Xavi in terms of talent but it comes down to style actually.

The problem I have with the Xavi argument is just how badly people are trying to use him to make other players like Arthur look bad in terms of talent. Xavi was a very rare talent that no one will be able to replicate and despite that he too wasn't a perfect player at the age of 22 either. He had quality but he really exploded when he was around the age of 28 years old up right until he started to decline around 2012-13 as his legs started to go.

Does Arthur need to improve? yes he does and his passing between the lines will get better once he gets more gametime and adjusts to Europe.

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He actually pointed out to the comparison of style, not talent, hence the Busquets comparison

I'm starting to doubt whether BBZ is pretending to be deliberately obtuse or genuinely not very bright graphomaniac. The whole point that i an many others are making is whether Arthur is suited for Barca in terms of his style and ability for current squad in current year. The answer is - yes he does. Whether he become great for us absolutely hangs in the air. How he compares to the best midfielder ever talent wise is fucking non sequitur and you simply shrug off this notion no matter how many times you're being told. No one will be on his level in our lifetimes just like there will be no one equal to Messi. Tedious stuff.

Btw, if i was BBZ i'd write a long ass post about how in that video he posted Xavi has constantly like 3-5 meters of space around him to make decisions and his passing targets quite often are equally loose. Also the tempo and physicality was like in today's women football. Not to mention that teams (except italians) couldn't park the bus like today. The concept was non existent. The Salvador team, even though shit as individuals were constantly harassing and pressing starting right from the center of field. Players rarely have ore than a meter of space and not being marked by two or more players. And that's shitty team. Good teams can be even more vicious. Remember how we were criticizing Xavi for having become a sideways passer in his final 5 or so years? He couldn't adapt to more intense and defensive football, poor guy. :bbz:

khaled_a_d said:

He actually pointed out to the comparison of style, not talent, hence the Busquets comparison

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Yeah Might have read that too quick on my part.

Either way, I don't really see him being close to Busi in terms of style though. His movements and his scanning of the field and stuff is a lot closer to Xavi's in terms of style can Busi's imo.

He's also a lot more mobile. Could probably play a defensive mid, but that would waste of his abilities.

Can't really see what's the problem with the questionings. Lack of creativity is alarming and can be (will be, imo) a factor which might decide his future with us. He doesn't seem like a natural at it (unlike Puig for example, or FdJ) and although he'll for sure improve, remains a question if it will be enough. No need to be defensive.

Gnidrologist said:

I'm starting to doubt whether BBZ is pretending to be deliberately obtuse or genuinely not very bright graphomaniac. The whole point that i an many others are making is whether Arthur is suited for Barca in terms of his style and ability for current squad in current year. The answer is - yes he does.

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Here is the problem.
Style
You, Konan, Serghei and some others think that his style reminds of Xavi's or of a controller.
Me, Khaled, Laporta and some others think that his style can't be described as Xavi's since he lacks in a key par of Xavi's role: creativity.
If you will now say: lol, a controller only needs to control, like Arthur. Xavi was one of a kind.

Well, in the last 15 years:
Cm Deco, quite attacking and creative
Cm Xavi, no comment needed
Cm Iniesta, no comment needed
Cm, Keita, able to play forward passes
Cm Van Bommel, lots of deadly, direct forward passes, even though he wasn't the best fit in general
Even Motta as a Cm had lots of forward passes even though he is a more defensive player.
Later: Fabregas, creative, even though a bad fit.
Rafinha, creative.
Arda, creative, but with other flaws.
Rakitic, still more creative than Arthur.
Gomes, a crap. No need to compare anyone with him.
Denis, more creative.

So, I don't need to compare his creativity with Xavi.
This is Barca and here, it is all about attack and passing.
This is why Semedo sucks.
This is why we are buying Gks who have world class feet technique.

Arthur is for now the least creative/forward minded CM which I have ever seen at Barca. or at least in this century, since I don't remember players from 90s that well since I was young.

In short: people say that his style is like Xavi's.
Our reply: Well, only some parts of Xavi's style. He lacks in other parts.
If you reply: Ok, his style is of a typical controller.
A reply: Well, then he is the most conservative controller I have ever seen, compared to other top teams, and not to Xavi.
And if you compare him with normal Barca's midfielders, again: he is the most cautious passer which I have ever seen.
And now go back to a part: we are Barca, it is all about attacking, passing, scoring, risking here, then you have a reply why me and some others aren't too impressed with Arthur for now.
Quite the opposite.
The way how he plays currently, I see him more suited to a slower Italian football of Milan, Inter, Lazio and similar.

Further, I don't get your question completely (this will sound weird, I don't know from which country you are, but your English phrases and words are way more complicated than from 99% of other posters and I often need to Google several words from each of your posts).
About whether he is suited for Barca in terms of his style, what kind of question is that?
I guess that you wanted to say that in theory Arthur's style fits Barca's classical like a glove.
Further, can he be useful this season (since I don't get your posts, as explained above due to your complicated phrases)? Well, of course.
But that is not a big achievement since more or less everyone can be useful:
1. Coutinho, of course
2. Busquets, of course
3. Rakitic, yes
4. Rafinha, yes
5. Denis, in some matches he can help in the 2nd half
6. Vidal, probably since he brings something different
7. Arthur, he is not a bad player, of course that he can help

So, I won't even compare him to Xavi, but to current players.
If you ask for my pecking order, against parked buses against La Liga teams, it would be:
1. Coutinho
2. Busquets
3. Rakitic
---------------
4. Rafinha
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5. Arthur/Vidal
7. Denis

Against Roma, who pressed us like crazy: Arthur is more useful since he is the best in getting the ball out of our half.
But again, against minor teams who park buses, I don't see too much use from his game currently and I would rather see even Rafinha at Camp Nou against Getafe as a 4th pick midfielder.
Even Roberto as a midfielder would bring more against minor teams since he is direct and way more attacking.

About a 2nd part of your post how old Xavi declined, well there are 2 possibilities:
1. either he aged and started to play more safe
2. or, he wasn't able to break defenses anymore because the opponents have figured out TikiTaka and how to stop our deadly actions

Since I am talking for years that our opponents have figured out TikiTaka, I could agree with a 2nd part of your post.
But then:
= if the opponents figured out TikiTaka, isn't it wiser to evolve to something new, and yet, we are buying a player who is a weaker copy of our TikiTaka guys, who were also figured out over time?

I will say only one thing in the end (sorry read only first paragraph). We managed to loose in CL with scores like 0:3, 0:4, 0:3 against far inferior teams in otherwise successful seasons in recent years because we couldn't control midfield for shit. Had only defensive or offensive players. No one to glue them together or manage the keepball and retention. Even if i'd take your ludicrous hyperbola of "only controller" seriously, it would still be better to have at least one than none. Or we can keep relying on Busquets as our sole playmaker in midfield. Suit yourself.