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Thread: 8 - Arthur

  1. #5716
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    One thing is sure, Arthurs start in 19/20 is way better than 18/19. All though the guy was amazing in his debut season start, with amazing press resistent play, his performance where more lacking as the season went along. A common trade for young players and especially players who just transfered. Some people blame Valverde, but I think it was just a natural development for him to hit a wall. He worked his ass off and hereby performed exceptionel, but couldn't do that for a whole season. In some ways he covered some of Sergio and Rakitic flaws in the start, but that workrate is impossible to maintain though a whole season. So 1) needed to strengen his physical awareness and 2) needed to build a better fitness. And right now i see that he has done both. Also the supporting players de Jong and fati/griezmann have a better workrate than previous players, which helps. 3) while his physical awareness has become better, i still see signs in his play where he works to much, which again is a sign that it's far from perfect (iniesta xavi Sergio Rakitic level) and om sure he will drop in form at some point. But because we have other hardworking players this season compared to last season, it wont be that big a problem for him. 4) the most important and promising improvement though from last season, is him adapting to a more attacking style. He wont keep up the stats he has now, but it still shows he has worked on it and right now he really looks like a xavi reincarniation. Season start right now is 9/10 and it will probably drop to 8/10, but if the guy keeps putting effort in his development like he has done until now, he will become a truly special midfielder. Also I think he will profit a lot from de Jong both in play, but also mentality wise, because the dutchman is also determined to wprk his ass of to get grea

  2. #5717
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregorrin10 View Post
    Simple solution. Ban bbz already...said it over 6 months ago. He's so obviously a troll, you can't even develop serious and useful debate with him hogging all the attention with his stupidity.
    My honest take on it: either BBZ is an incredible genius, who implemented some never seen before level of trolling on this forum, or he’s an incredibly stupid football fan and analyst who wasn’t even able to chose the right club for his weird tastes years ago.

    It’s the absolute top or the absolute bottom in his case. A man simply can’t honestly decide to shit on the club’s best midfielder and defend club’s worst midfielder, with shit arguments like "Rakitic makes more interceptions".

    When I was younger, me and my friends used to spend hours playing FIFA. There was one guy who completely sucked at that game so he’d troll just for fun, he’d lose a game 5-0 and say "yeah but I’ve got a better tackle success rate".
    BBZ is that kind of guy, for his own good I hope he’s trolling too.

    I wouldn’t ignore or ban BBZ though, he’s the vilain who’s horrible posts provoke chaos here, and we love to hate them. You’ve got to give him that. But he still completely sucks at analyzing football lol.
    Last edited by YodaMaster; 10th October 2019 at 09:20 AM.

  3. #5718
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    On every topic like this you can learn a lot about human nature, tribes and clans.

    On the last 2-3 pages, someone can spot interesting psychological patterns, as always.
    For example, no matter what I wrote (and how much I exaggerate), some fans won't jump on me, like Tackle, Khaled, Tricky, Barcaman, Joan, Vlad, Gaudi, Ursegor, Hamzah etc.

    On the other hand, there will be guys who will jump on an every wrong word or number like: KingLeo, Messi2140, Villarubi, Yoda, Gnidro, 2 Dons etc.
    Since guys in both tribes are smart, I guess it is not about a thing that one tribe "sees" my mistakes and the others don't=but more about friendship and tribes.

    Then there are guys who are just living in a dreamland and who like to live in a bubble where everything is perfect and our players are almost flawless (especially young players and new toys) and they are angry when someone is crushing their dreams with pointing to some flaws of their favorite players (Gregorrin guy is an example of that guy).
    Then the 3rd, there are random user who just disagree in a certain topic, and there is no deeper hate there or crushing of their dreams.

    So, before going into useless fights with some members, it is easier to "live" and answer posts when you know where their anger or disagreements are coming from.

    Further, another thing which baffles me for years on this forum (and on all similar fan-forums and pages on internet, in music, movies, art, politics, sport, religion) is a human need to overhype your tribe (Barcelona and our players in this case).
    It is a known psychological and sociological fact that people get into tribes and groups to feel more safe, to surround themselves with people who share the same opinion/interest and in some cases to feel: I am more important than others (who don't get these things which I get. For example in art: people love to get into groups with other people who love and "understand" art and then they all feel better, smarter and different than normal people who don't know shit about art. The same is about religion, politics or interests)
    The same basic principles apply here.
    The first general tribe is: Barca, where all of us are against the world. This is why we hate Real Madrid, Psg, CR7 and similar.
    But inside of a general Barca's tribe, there are smaller tribes where people hold their backs, like: EV guys versus EV haters. Lovers of a specific playing style/a player vs opponents etc.

    And when you sum it all, people love to overhype the things which they love in order to feel more special than other people.
    Example: I love art and art is the best thing which happened in a human history. And I feel so better/smarter than others who don't get it.
    In music/movies/cartoons/anime/games: this genre/musician is the best thing ever. And people who don't get it are dumb and are missing so many things. I feel so special/better than others for understanding the greatness of this genre/musician and to surround myself with "smart people" who understand the same interests.
    Now let's go to Barca, similar principles can apply: I feel better than other football fans because I am a fan of Barca, and we are a special club, unlike others.
    Or: we rely on La Masia. We are special and fans feel special because of that. Or: we play Total-football and Joga Bonita, unlike others and fans feel special/better than others because of that.
    But then, this weird human need translates onto players. And majority of people start to overrate our players in order to create this feeling of being special/different than others in their heads.
    Because: if our interest is special and better than others (Barca), then we also feel special (as humans) and our life/hobbies/free time makes sense, right?
    Our invested time isn't a wasted time. And our life wasn't a life of a loser who had boring interest or interests which supported loser teams/musician/political parties.
    Plus, our future (in terms of Barca) looks bright. Which again means=we didn't waste our lives on loser's projects and we are investing time and thoughts into a winning project.
    And since all people want to be winners (even in terms of interests), when you sum it all, we come closer to an explanation WHY all football fans (or fans of any interest) are heavily overrating the objects of their affection and why they are deeply hurt and hostile when some dares to ask some questions and potentially crush their dreams.

    Now, I will agree that some of my posts are shit and exaggeration, but deep down, I am crushing people's dreams for years with asking questions about Halilovic, Bartra, Samper, Alena, Dembele, Malcom and now Arthur.
    All of these players are a perfect example of these projections: I am special, my interests are special, I feel better than others due to my interests, my interests are a winning project and there is a bright future infront of us.
    And then, if Dembele is (or was) a key man of that project in your head (where your interest will be a winning interest, aka winning La Ligas and CLs in the future), then when someone comes and says:
    Dembele is dumb as fuck, a bad fit for us, he will never be a good player and we will probably never win CLs with him as a starter=this is not only a kick at Dembele and his skills, but a kick in hearts and dreams of 90% of fans here who are doing the process from above (get in a tribe, feel special, feel better/different than the others, invest a lot of free time and emotions in that process/interest, pick a winning project since humans want to win in everything since we are driven by ego and survival urges).
    Again, this is why me or any users with similar digs to favorite players will need to suffer 100s of insults on every topic EVEN if my ideas turn right in the end.

    Anyway, let's go to Arthur now.
    User McLovin was less aggressive than some other posters, so I will reply to him:
    You asked about Arthur's attacking play.
    Of course that he has improved, I have already said that.
    But about his attacking play, when you analyze a lot of factors on a deeper level, there are some major concerns and red flags:
    1. even though his numbers are good in these 5-6 matches, he has now equaled the number of his club's goals and assists in his whole career.
    So, in 5-6 matches this season he made the same number of goals and assists as in his whole career.
    So, logically, this won't be sustainable.
    It doesn't mean that he won't assist here and there, but it is hard to expect anything close to these numbers in the future.
    2. further, imo still, his natural instincts are: calma calma, and play it safely. It is obvious from his moves and body language that he is "forced" to play attacking passes. EV or his team has instructed him to do so.
    In some cases those passes worked perfectly till now, but in a lot of cases it has been seen that he is not natural with a timing of these passes or decision making, because again=he is forced to do that and it is not in his blood.
    In that sense, imo, he should stick to a double pivot role or to a CM controller-playmaker, not to a CAM role for Barca's level.
    3. regarding his defending, I don't even want to go deeper in this, because as explained above, we are not even discussing this object here, this is all about ME crushing people's DREAMS.
    Arthur from a real world has obvious defensive flaws (slow, short, bad in the air, bad at interceptions, bad against counters).
    But Arthur from people's heads is a symbol of a new Barca and a symbol of a brighter future.
    So, in order for people to accept that he has some obvious flaws, they will need to accept in their heads that their favorite player is not perfect and thus=that their interest (Barca) has lower chances of winning than before accepting this fact from BBZ's posts.
    So, basically, this fight and similar fights is not about Arthur's defending, Dembele's IQ and similar.
    It is about an internal battle of fans and about process of accepting that players whom they are overhyping in their heads are not as good as they would like to.
    That still doesn't mean that Arthur or XX is not a good player.
    It only means that a player XX has a lot of good things and a lot of flaws.
    But again, since 90% of posters are driven by their desire to feel special and with a desire that their object of love (Barca, and certain key players) are perfect in order to guide us to CL trophies=and this is why a forum is filled with imo semi-dumb posts: xx player played great. What a player. Generational talent. Has chances to be one of top3 RBs in the world. We are set for the next 10 years.
    All these type of posts and desires come from everything what I have explained above.

    Without posts from me and similar users, this forum will turn into a brainwashed bubble where all posts will be: he is good, yes, he is good. He is also good. Everyone are good. We are so good. The future is so bright. We will be winning everything for eternity.
    While it will never happen since it is only a bubble (created because of those human psychological needs) and doesn't have too much with reality.

    One more thing about Arthur, why I have said to calm down.
    On a psychological level, we have some facts till now:
    1. last season, he started awesome, bot dropped after 3 Months. People offered alibies that it was because of an injury.
    2. at Gremio, one Brasilian user mentioned that Arthur often had hot and cold periods: when he is happy, he played awesome. But when he was sad for some reason, his level dropped significantly.
    3. now, I would add: last season in some matches, Celta away iirc, from his body language it was clear that he is very sad and unhappy for not playing as a starter anymore.
    When he was entering a field as a sub in some matches, he was cold and without too much motivation. He was barely looking EV in his eyes and listening to what he is saying. His face was more or less saying: "oh, fuck off you moron."
    Then he was subbed 3 times around the minute 45-55 (Espanyol, Sociedad, CDR final Valencia).
    Then he went to play on Copa America and said some things like: I am happier here because Brasilian coach allows me to play in this way.
    When he came back this season, he was benched again for Alena-Roberto-Frenkie-Busi midfield.
    He didn't play too much and he was still sad and angry (imo, from his body language when he was entering a field as a sub in those days). Then EV decided to drop Raki, plus Bob and Alena were bad, so Arthur got his chance.
    But, he was a sub in March, April, May, June, July and August.
    That means that he was sad and angry for 6 straight Months.
    And now when he got chance, he was playing like a lion in midfield, attack and defense, and he was running and covering like crazy.
    Some people started to make fun too soon and said: lol, and people said that he had stamina problems.
    Again, hold your horses guys.
    1. he has played only 5-ish full matches, he was rested in one match in between (unlike Frenkie in that time who played 7-8 full matches in a row), and even though he rested, in the last 2 or 3 matches, Arthur's level dropped compared to a level of his early matches from this season.
    2. now, someone who wants to dig deeper could ask some logical concerns:
    1) about his Stamina, are the issues still there? And was he just giving 120% till now, but over time, he won't have that much stamina long term?
    2) secondly, about his psychological state, WHAT IF his awesome matches in the first rounds of this season came as a revolt of being benched for 6 Months?
    And if what we have seen was not "a normal Arthur", but an angry/revolted Arthur?
    And now, when he is clear starter again, maybe his motivation (which was at 120% early in a season) will drop to normal levels (let's say 90-100%)?
    Some might say that this is already happening in the last few matches where his level was good but not as high as in the first matches.
    Now go back to previous points, he had the same problem in his first season (played well and motivated when he wanted to prove himself, and dropped his level when he became a starter).
    Also, as a one Brasilian user said: he was hot and cold all the time at Gremio.

    So, let's slow down and see:
    1. how will his defensive game work against better and counterattacking team
    2. how will his attacking 3rd game look like longterm
    3. whether his motivation will drop, and was this good form a product of a revolt for being benched for 6 Months, or can he offer such a high level consistently
    4. the same about Stamina long term, after playing 90 minutes for 5 or 10 matches in a row twice a week
    There are 100s of concerns like with any player.
    And as I have said, over time we usually figure out flaws of all players, which we didn't see in early days.

    Someone will say: Bbz, you only see negative things.
    Well, again, since too many users are seeing only positive things and nothing else, some of us need to post red flags and concerns, or we will turn into a 13-years old fan page group where everything is awesome and all players are flawless.
    We know the good sides of every player since everyone is mentioning them.
    Let's write about flaws also, to even it out and to get closer to an objective world.

    Kisses and hugs, even to guys who jump on every post of mine
    Last edited by BBZ8800; 10th October 2019 at 09:47 AM.
    FU Barto, FU the whole board, FU Abidal, FU Neymar. The end of Barca

  4. #5719
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    On every topic like this you can learn a lot about human nature, tribes and clans.

    On the last 2-3 pages, someone can spot interesting psychological patterns, as always.
    For example, no matter what I wrote (and how much I exaggerate), some fans won't jump on me, like Tackle, Khaled, Tricky, Barcaman, Joan, Vlad, Gaudi, Ursegor, Hamzah etc.

    On the other hand, there will be guys who will jump on an every wrong word or number like: KingLeo, Messi2140, Villarubi, Yoda, Gnidro, 2 Dons etc.
    Since guys in both tribes are smart, I guess it is not about a thing that one tribe "sees" my mistakes and the others don't=but more about friendship and tribes.

    Then there are guys who are just living in a dreamland and who like to live in a bubble where everything is perfect and our players are almost flawless (especially young players and new toys) and they are angry when someone is crushing their dreams with pointing to some flaws of their favorite players (Gregorrin guy is an example of that guy).
    Then the 3rd, there are random user who just disagree in a certain topic, and there is no deeper hate there or crushing of their dreams.

    So, before going into useless fights with some members, it is easier to "live" and answer posts when you know where their anger or disagreements are coming from.

    Further, another thing which baffles me for years on this forum (and on all similar fan-forums and pages on internet, in music, movies, art, politics, sport, religion) is a human need to overhype your tribe (Barcelona and our players in this case).
    It is a known psychological and sociological fact that people get into tribes and groups to feel more safe, to surround themselves with people who share the same opinion/interest and in some cases to feel: I am more important than others (who don't get these things which I get. For example in art: people love to get into groups with other people who love and "understand" art and then they all feel better, smarter and different than normal people who don't know shit about art. The same is about religion, politics or interests)
    The same basic principles apply here.
    The first general tribe is: Barca, where all of us are against the world. This is why we hate Real Madrid, Psg, CR7 and similar.
    But inside of a general Barca's tribe, there are smaller tribes where people hold their backs, like: EV guys versus EV haters. Lovers of a specific playing style/a player vs opponents etc.

    And when you sum it all, people love to overhype the things which they love in order to feel more special than other people.
    Example: I love art and art is the best thing which happened in a human history. And I feel so better/smarter than others who don't get it.
    In music/movies/cartoons/anime/games: this genre/musician is the best thing ever. And people who don't get it are dumb and are missing so many things. I feel so special/better than others for understanding the greatness of this genre/musician and to surround myself with "smart people" who understand the same interests.
    Now let's go to Barca, similar principles can apply: I feel better than other football fans because I am a fan of Barca, and we are a special club, unlike others.
    Or: we rely on La Masia. We are special and fans feel special because of that. Or: we play Total-football and Joga Bonita, unlike others and fans feel special/better than others because of that.
    But then, this weird human need translates onto players. And majority of people start to overrate our players in order to create this feeling of being special/different than others in their heads.
    Because: if our interest is special and better than others (Barca), then we also feel special (as humans) and our life/hobbies/free time makes sense, right?
    Our invested time isn't a wasted time. And our life wasn't a life of a loser who had boring interest or interests which supported loser teams/musician/political parties.
    Plus, our future (in terms of Barca) looks bright. Which again means=we didn't waste our lives on loser's projects and we are investing time and thoughts into a winning project.
    And since all people want to be winners (even in terms of interests), when you sum it all, we come closer to an explanation WHY all football fans (or fans of any interest) are heavily overrating the objects of their affection and why they are deeply hurt and hostile when some dares to ask some questions and potentially crush their dreams.

    Now, I will agree that some of my posts are shit and exaggeration, but deep down, I am crushing people's dreams for years with asking questions about Halilovic, Bartra, Samper, Alena, Dembele, Malcom and now Arthur.
    All of these players are a perfect example of these projections: I am special, my interests are special, I feel better than others due to my interests, my interests are a winning project and there is a bright future infront of us.
    And then, if Dembele is (or was) a key man of that project in your head (where your interest will be a winning interest, aka winning La Ligas and CLs in the future), then when someone comes and says:
    Dembele is dumb as fuck, a bad fit for us, he will never be a good player and we will probably never win CLs with him as a starter=this is not only a kick at Dembele and his skills, but a kick in hearts and dreams of 90% of fans here who are doing the process from above (get in a tribe, feel special, feel better/different than the others, invest a lot of free time and emotions in that process/interest, pick a winning project since humans want to win in everything since we are driven by ego and survival urges).
    Again, this is why me or any users with similar digs to favorite players will need to suffer 100s of insults on every topic EVEN if my ideas turn right in the end.

    Anyway, let's go to Arthur now.
    User McLovin was less aggressive than some other posters, so I will reply to him:
    You asked about Arthur's attacking play.
    Of course that he has improved, I have already said that.
    But about his attacking play, when you analyze a lot of factors on a deeper level, there are some major concerns and red flags:
    1. even though his numbers are good in these 5-6 matches, he has now equaled the number of his club's goals and assists in his whole career.
    So, in 5-6 matches this season he made the same number of goals and assists as in his whole career.
    So, logically, this won't be sustainable.
    It doesn't mean that he won't assist here and there, but it is hard to expect anything close to these numbers in the future.
    2. further, imo still, his natural instincts are: calma calma, and play it safely. It is obvious from his moves and body language that he is "forced" to play attacking passes. EV or his team has instructed him to do so.
    In some cases those passes worked perfectly till now, but in a lot of cases it has been seen that he is not natural with a timing of these passes or decision making, because again=he is forced to do that and it is not in his blood.
    In that sense, imo, he should stick to a double pivot role or to a CM controller-playmaker, not to a CAM role for Barca's level.
    3. regarding his defending, I don't even want to go deeper in this, because as explained above, we are not even discussing this object here, this is all about ME crushing people's DREAMS.
    Arthur from a real world has obvious defensive flaws (slow, short, bad in the air, bad at interceptions, bad against counters).
    But Arthur from people's heads is a symbol of a new Barca and a symbol of a brighter future.
    So, in order for people to accept that he has some obvious flaws, they will need to accept in their heads that their favorite player is not perfect and thus=that their interest (Barca) has lower chances of winning than before accepting this fact from BBZ's posts.
    So, basically, this fight and similar fights is not about Arthur's defending, Dembele's IQ and similar.
    It is about an internal battle of fans and about process of accepting that players whom they are overhyping in their heads are not as good as they would like to.
    That still doesn't mean that Arthur or XX is not a good player.
    It only means that a player XX has a lot of good things and a lot of flaws.
    But again, since 90% of posters are driven by their desire to feel special and with a desire that their object of love (Barca, and certain key players) are perfect in order to guide us to CL trophies=and this is why a forum is filled with imo semi-dumb posts: xx player played great. What a player. Generational talent. Has chances to be one of top3 RBs in the world. We are set for the next 10 years.
    All these type of posts and desires come from everything what I have explained above.

    Without posts from me and similar users, this forum will turn into a brainwashed bubble where all posts will be: he is good, yes, he is good. He is also good. Everyone are good. We are so good. The future is so bright. We will be winning everything for eternity.
    While it will never happen since it is only a bubble (created because of those human psychological needs) and doesn't have too much with reality.

    One more thing about Arthur, why I have said to calm down.
    On a psychological level, we have some facts till now:
    1. last season, he started awesome, bot dropped after 3 Months. People offered alibies that it was because of an injury.
    2. at Gremio, one Brasilian user mentioned that Arthur often had hot and cold periods: when he is happy, he played awesome. But when he was sad for some reason, his level dropped significantly.
    3. now, I would add: last season in some matches, Celta away iirc, from his body language it was clear that he is very sad and unhappy for not playing as a starter anymore.
    When he was entering a field as a sub in some matches, he was cold and without too much motivation. He was barely looking EV in his eyes and listening to what he is saying. His face was more or less saying: "oh, fuck off you moron."
    Then he was subbed 3 times around the minute 45-55 (Espanyol, Sociedad, CDR final Valencia).
    Then he went to play on Copa America and said some things like: I am happier here because Brasilian coach allows me to play in this way.
    When he came back this season, he was benched again for Alena-Roberto-Frenkie-Busi midfield.
    He didn't play too much and he was still sad and angry (imo, from his body language when he was entering a field as a sub in those days). Then EV decided to drop Raki, plus Bob and Alena were bad, so Arthur got his chance.
    But, he was a sub in March, April, May, June, July and August.
    That means that he was sad and angry for 6 straight Months.
    And now when he got chance, he was playing like a lion in midfield, attack and defense, and he was running and covering like crazy.
    Some people started to make fun too soon and said: lol, and people said that he had stamina problems.
    Again, hold your horses guys.
    1. he has played only 5-ish full matches, he was rested in one match in between (unlike Frenkie in that time who played 7-8 full matches in a row), and even though he rested, in the last 2 or 3 matches, Arthur's level dropped compared to a level of his early matches from this season.
    2. now, someone who wants to dig deeper could ask some logical concerns:
    1) about his Stamina, are the issues still there? And was he just giving 120% till now, but over time, he won't have that much stamina long term?
    2) secondly, about his psychological state, WHAT IF his awesome matches in the first rounds of this season came as a revolt of being benched for 6 Months?
    And if what we have seen was not "a normal Arthur", but an angry/revolted Arthur?
    And now, when he is clear starter again, maybe his motivation (which was at 120% early in a season) will drop to normal levels (let's say 90-100%)?
    Some might say that this is already happening in the last few matches where his level was good but not as high as in the first matches.
    Now go back to previous points, he had the same problem in his first season (played well and motivated when he wanted to prove himself, and dropped his level when he became a starter).
    Also, as a one Brasilian user said: he was hot and cold all the time at Gremio.

    So, let's slow down and see:
    1. how will his defensive game work against better and counterattacking team
    2. how will his attacking 3rd game look like longterm
    3. whether his motivation will drop, and was this good form a product of a revolt for being benched for 6 Months, or can he offer such a high level consistently
    4. the same about Stamina long term, after playing 90 minutes for 5 or 10 matches in a row twice a week
    There are 100s of concerns like with any player.
    And as I have said, over time we usually figure out flaws of all players, which we didn't see in early days.

    Someone will say: Bbz, you only see negative things.
    Well, again, since too many users are seeing only positive things and nothing else, some of us need to post red flags and concerns, or we will turn into a 13-years old fan page group where everything is awesome and all players are flawless.
    We know the good sides of every player since everyone is mentioning them.
    Let's write about flaws also, to even it out and to get closer to an objective world.

    Kisses and hugs, even to guys who jump on every post of mine
    Some of us tend to agree and some of us often disagree with your posts but no one can deny that you have quality posts and that you always tend to elaborate you opinion (sometimes too much ). On the other hand some members tend to write meaningless things they can't defend or elaborate. So long live BBZ! Cheers mate!

  5. #5720
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    BBZ against the world.

  6. #5721
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    @BBZ8800 Solid post. We can all agree it's too early to pass judgement on Arthur after only 5/6 games.

    He has arguably been our best player so far though. So we'll have to see if he continues like that.
    #ValverdeOUT

  7. #5722
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    Of course people are jumping on hype and hate train faaaaar to easy.

    I liked Arthur from the first sight, I simple can see certain talent in quite a few things, like "cuddling" the ball, quick body direction changes, good thinking, the way someone moves wizh the ball and so on...of course this works for me and I would be narcistic idiot to claim it's bulletproof, but I saw good things with Arthur.

    For example there were always doubt with Dembele in this aspect above.

    I'm glad he is having a good season but why I tend to defend certain players more is because of our system and EV currently.
    I think good or let's be honest a great coach (and Barca deserves a great one) always plays his team strenght and tries to minimize flaws.
    For example I don't share popular belief here that Busi suddenly lost half of his fitness or physicality, I believe he always had those flaws but a system hide them correctly. With Xavi, Iniesta, our defensive line being close, Pedro, Villa pressing all as a team and like a bees there were far less space in between our lines and he used his head to be in good position always. Remember, he was the best in the league in interceptions and vertical passes (or similar) but even then he wasn't fast and if he was left 1 on 1 in big space he would lose. But then, that was seldom, now - always, and he looks bad.
    Yes, players lose physicality with age but it's not like you wake on your 31st birthday and you can't run anymore.
    Team and system worked and hide his flaws.

    Now, even in Peps last year opponents learned and adapted to our system, stopped chasnig shadows and parked 3 lines of defence. But still, only few teams could do it efficiently...but cracks in our system were there.
    After Pep everyone either become stupid, were stupid the begin from, our completely misunderstood what our system was.
    Possession for sake of statistic is idiotic and tiki taka (QUICK PASSING NOT LOOOONG BALL HOLDING) can be played in direct system as well.
    Now, even Getafe can easily play 3 lines and stop our "system" and quick, dynamic teams can kill as at will.
    Even listening to EV makes me realize he is not even aware of the problem. For example after an awful game he often says: we lacked that final pass to create a goal chance!? NO! WE LACKED THE ROOM FOR THAT PASS and that's because of our slow and static play. Every team can stop us now.

    Having said all that I find it difficult to criticize players in this type of system because only god talents like Messi can play in this!
    People here attacked Semedo for final delivery - but fullbacks don't need a magic ball to be good fullbacks in good system. Record the game and then stop it every time Semedo is alone on the right close to the box - noone in the box, noone attacking the box, ONLY complicated passes are available to him. Normal fullbacks would just pump the ball in the box, there would be at least 3 players, often more, they would score and suddenly we have a great fullback that tracks back and has, like, 10 assists per season.
    Alba is no different he is just "saved" with those crazy through ball by Messi as he always goes left. Without him he looked same as Semedo and people here claimed he is in bad form...no, system doesn't work!
    Stop the play every time our midfielders have the ball and you will see very little if any options but safe pass to the closest standing player, no runs behind lines, no movement...so either our midfielder needs to dribble and create something out of nothing or try a crazy ball - but of course he can do that because we need to have 75% possession and "control" the game (and Suarez will yell at you).

    Noone can thrive in this system, so to expect Arthur (or anyone) to have tremendous match every time is impossible.

    I dare everyone here to write their first 11 that WOULD work in this system!

    So, now we can even start thinking that Griezmann is meh player and pretend that he wouldn't be starter in EVERY other club in the world and we can continue adding magic players (Neymar) and pray that we'll have a magical moment every match. For that we don't even need a manager, Barto can be president/coach in one.
    Last edited by Gaudi; 10th October 2019 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #5723
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Someone will say: Bbz, you only see negative things.
    Well, again, since too many users are seeing only positive things and nothing else, some of us need to post red flags and concerns, or we will turn into a 13-years old fan page group where everything is awesome and all players are flawless.
    Good post, specially compared to your own standards, apart from the Arthur part, but I still enjoy your thoughts.
    You can not truly accuse me of frequently agreeing with you, or that I hadn't been one of the few who were purposely going after you, half a year ago or so.

    There are some problems though with your own assessment of your own role and posts here:

    The most important one, that I was often bashing you with, is related to your known repetitions. Before all you should know what you are going to represent in a small community, where people truly pay attention to you, either from the positive or negative sense.
    Your generally positive opinions have been either related to Rakitic or players of the past.
    Very rarely came positivity from your depot regarding anyone else, apart from EV.

    You have written 6412 posts here.
    Were they, are they generally and usually positive or negative? To better put it: are they CONSTRUCTIVE or DESTRUCTIVE in a general sense? Because that is the question.
    You will guess my humble observation: most of your posts are effectively and recognizably destructive in nature.
    Probably the only exceptions were: obviously Rakitic, quite much EV and some ex-players from the club. That's it.

    Negativity? It's even hard to cite: Neymar, Malcom, Dembele, Semedo, Arthur and so on and so forth.
    After he left, for two years you have kept on bashing Neymar with childishly ignorant words, regardless anything. Is it positivity or just the reflection of your subjective personal taste?
    You started campaigns against Neymar, Arthur, Semedo and pro- campaigns for Valverde. And you did all that without listening to ANY of the different opinions.

    I have criticized your posts because of your constant negativity and heavily biased negativity, enveloped in a much more intelligent robe that the average user does. But the negativity remains. The essence, the root-cause remains.
    How many times you have repeated the very same notions, often 3-4 times in a single post? What was your aim? Do you notice your own repetitions or they "just come" by the quantity of sentences?

    Has it been simply negative and destructive propaganda, as I've told a million times? Were you aware of the fact that you have tried to influence other's opinions according to your own biases, likes and dislikes?
    It's irrelevant if you were right or wrong, what's relevant has been the VEHEMENCE you have been trying to influence others to accept or even follow your own values, your own biases and your own slightly outdated notions on contemporary football.

    This forum is filled by negativity anyhow. You are absolutely mistaken and WRONG - once more - in thinking that you should be the counterweight of criticism, against the too many good opinions.
    There are hardly any good opinions here, apart from Messi, or apart from the enthusiastic single-sentences after a nice or lucky win.
    The rest is simply dirty filth, where the few clever, intelligent, full-fledged and thinking users try to navigate their way through the impulsive and almost brain-dead crowd.

    "FU Barto, FU the whole board, FU Abidal, FU Neymar. The end of Barca" - is it the real you or your present post represents what you are really thinking?
    Do you have dual personality? An angry and emotional one besides the analytic one? Which one is real? Both?
    Last edited by Potroh; 10th October 2019 at 03:18 PM.

  9. #5724
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Anyway, let's go to Arthur now.
    User McLovin was less aggressive than some other posters, so I will reply to him:
    You asked about Arthur's attacking play.
    Of course that he has improved, I have already said that.
    But about his attacking play, when you analyze a lot of factors on a deeper level, there are some major concerns and red flags:
    1. even though his numbers are good in these 5-6 matches, he has now equaled the number of his club's goals and assists in his whole career.
    So, in 5-6 matches this season he made the same number of goals and assists as in his whole career.
    So, logically, this won't be sustainable.
    It doesn't mean that he won't assist here and there, but it is hard to expect anything close to these numbers in the future.
    2. further, imo still, his natural instincts are: calma calma, and play it safely. It is obvious from his moves and body language that he is "forced" to play attacking passes. EV or his team has instructed him to do so.
    In some cases those passes worked perfectly till now, but in a lot of cases it has been seen that he is not natural with a timing of these passes or decision making, because again=he is forced to do that and it is not in his blood.
    In that sense, imo, he should stick to a double pivot role or to a CM controller-playmaker, not to a CAM role for Barca's level.
    3. regarding his defending, I don't even want to go deeper in this, because as explained above, we are not even discussing this object here, this is all about ME crushing people's DREAMS.
    Arthur from a real world has obvious defensive flaws (slow, short, bad in the air, bad at interceptions, bad against counters).
    But Arthur from people's heads is a symbol of a new Barca and a symbol of a brighter future.
    So, in order for people to accept that he has some obvious flaws, they will need to accept in their heads that their favorite player is not perfect and thus=that their interest (Barca) has lower chances of winning than before accepting this fact from BBZ's posts.
    So, basically, this fight and similar fights is not about Arthur's defending, Dembele's IQ and similar.
    It is about an internal battle of fans and about process of accepting that players whom they are overhyping in their heads are not as good as they would like to.
    That still doesn't mean that Arthur or XX is not a good player.
    It only means that a player XX has a lot of good things and a lot of flaws.
    But again, since 90% of posters are driven by their desire to feel special and with a desire that their object of love (Barca, and certain key players) are perfect in order to guide us to CL trophies=and this is why a forum is filled with imo semi-dumb posts: xx player played great. What a player. Generational talent. Has chances to be one of top3 RBs in the world. We are set for the next 10 years.
    All these type of posts and desires come from everything what I have explained above.


    One more thing about Arthur, why I have said to calm down.
    On a psychological level, we have some facts till now:
    1. last season, he started awesome, bot dropped after 3 Months. People offered alibies that it was because of an injury.
    2. at Gremio, one Brasilian user mentioned that Arthur often had hot and cold periods: when he is happy, he played awesome. But when he was sad for some reason, his level dropped significantly.
    3. now, I would add: last season in some matches, Celta away iirc, from his body language it was clear that he is very sad and unhappy for not playing as a starter anymore.
    When he was entering a field as a sub in some matches, he was cold and without too much motivation. He was barely looking EV in his eyes and listening to what he is saying. His face was more or less saying: "oh, fuck off you moron."
    Then he was subbed 3 times around the minute 45-55 (Espanyol, Sociedad, CDR final Valencia).
    Then he went to play on Copa America and said some things like: I am happier here because Brasilian coach allows me to play in this way.
    When he came back this season, he was benched again for Alena-Roberto-Frenkie-Busi midfield.
    He didn't play too much and he was still sad and angry (imo, from his body language when he was entering a field as a sub in those days). Then EV decided to drop Raki, plus Bob and Alena were bad, so Arthur got his chance.
    But, he was a sub in March, April, May, June, July and August.
    That means that he was sad and angry for 6 straight Months.
    And now when he got chance, he was playing like a lion in midfield, attack and defense, and he was running and covering like crazy.
    Some people started to make fun too soon and said: lol, and people said that he had stamina problems.
    Again, hold your horses guys.
    1. he has played only 5-ish full matches, he was rested in one match in between (unlike Frenkie in that time who played 7-8 full matches in a row), and even though he rested, in the last 2 or 3 matches, Arthur's level dropped compared to a level of his early matches from this season.
    2. now, someone who wants to dig deeper could ask some logical concerns:
    1) about his Stamina, are the issues still there? And was he just giving 120% till now, but over time, he won't have that much stamina long term?
    2) secondly, about his psychological state, WHAT IF his awesome matches in the first rounds of this season came as a revolt of being benched for 6 Months?
    And if what we have seen was not "a normal Arthur", but an angry/revolted Arthur?
    And now, when he is clear starter again, maybe his motivation (which was at 120% early in a season) will drop to normal levels (let's say 90-100%)?
    Some might say that this is already happening in the last few matches where his level was good but not as high as in the first matches.
    Now go back to previous points, he had the same problem in his first season (played well and motivated when he wanted to prove himself, and dropped his level when he became a starter).
    Also, as a one Brasilian user said: he was hot and cold all the time at Gremio.

    So, let's slow down and see:
    1. how will his defensive game work against better and counterattacking team
    2. how will his attacking 3rd game look like longterm
    3. whether his motivation will drop, and was this good form a product of a revolt for being benched for 6 Months, or can he offer such a high level consistently
    4. the same about Stamina long term, after playing 90 minutes for 5 or 10 matches in a row twice a week
    There are 100s of concerns like with any player.
    And as I have said, over time we usually figure out flaws of all players, which we didn't see in early days.

    That sounds much more reasonable. A few points:

    - Yeah, hes not a defensive beast, but he doesnt need to be. He passes the bare minimum at least (like Xavi, Iniesta, Thiago...) and unlike guys like Alena, Puig, Samper etc pp, who all look weak as hell. I would even argue hes grittier then the first ones mentioned.

    - Talentwise I think theres nothing wrong with hyping him, hes one of the few guys who actually deserve the hype. Theres an apparent gulf in class between him and La Masia products as of late (Alena, Samper etc pp). I dont think I ever hyped players like Malcom either - neither did most the forum (squad player at best).

    - I agree that hes not a CAM at heart, but the trend goes more to allround CMs anyway. The two most successful teams (Real and us) didnt play with full blown CAMs. Iniesta probably was the closest to an attacking midfielder, but I would still classify him as a central midfielder first and foremost. I dont think players like Ruiz or Olmo for example are needed. Even if they are Arthur can easily coexist with one - the 3rd midfield spot is vacant in the near future anyway.

    - Regarding form: yeah, I agree. He needs to keep it up. But you can say that about every player.


    Last but not least: whats the alternative to him anyway? Going with Rakitic, Roberto or Vidal again? They had their chances and blew it spectacularly. Our midfield the past few years has been by far our biggest weakness. Its hard to look past Rakitics Anfield performance and give him another shot thinking it will work out well. You may say Rakitic wasnt the only player with a shit performance, but the other guy with a comparable (aka non existant!) performance was Coutinho and hes gone. The rest of the team at least tried.

  10. #5725
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    Feel like the people who endlessly back Rakitic hold Arthur to a far higher standard (maybe slightly fuelled by people comparing him to Xavi). I don't think they see that this is basically admitting he is far better and that you expect more from him because of it.

  11. #5726
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    I don't understand this talk that his goals and assists numbers are unsustainable and that logically they will go down.
    They could go down, but there is a good chance they don't. He just turned 23, and this is only his 2nd season in Europe. Not to mention he has never played with a midfield talent at Frenkie's level who frees up Arthur from having to always play deep.

  12. #5727
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Mars View Post
    I don't understand this talk that his goals and assists numbers are unsustainable and that logically they will go down.
    They could go down, but there is a good chance they don't. He just turned 23, and this is only his 2nd season in Europe. Not to mention he has never played with a midfield talent at Frenkie's level who frees up Arthur from having to always play deep.
    Arthur can go just up from here if he continues to play and train. He is 23y. His time can only come.
    Andres DON Iniesta is the only player in football's history to be Man of the Match in a Champions League final, EURO final and World Cup final.

  13. #5728
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Mars View Post
    I don't understand this talk that his goals and assists numbers are unsustainable and that logically they will go down.
    They could go down, but there is a good chance they don't. He just turned 23, and this is only his 2nd season in Europe. Not to mention he has never played with a midfield talent at Frenkie's level who frees up Arthur from having to always play deep.
    If he plays this high up, his assist numbers will be very good because a higher position means more attacking roles. So he will register more shots, more assists, more goals, more key passes. What he will be less great at is the pass completion success rate (which will drop from 97-98% more towards lower 90% or even 88-90%), and his controller potential, because he activates in a position where he has less time on the ball, and fewer options to pass than in the DM-CM area.

    He will also get assists that are more down to his more advanced position than his actual playmaking genius. Just because he is more in the situation to pass to Messi, Dembele, Suarez, who are players who score golazos from nothing. He already got 2 easy assists just by giving the ball to Suarez (Valencia), and Dembele (Sevilla). Being closer to great shooters means he will get more assists. It's a simple logic to follow. Being the guy who passes more to Messi/Suarez, than the guy who passes to the guy who passes to Messi/Suarez means you get more assists.

    Arthur is one of the best passers in world football now (De Bruyne, Thiago, Arthur, Frenkie, Kroos, Verratti, Pjanic). It is clear to anyone who knows football imo. So, instead of his actual ability, which is clear, the main impact on his stats will be tied to his evolution as a player, but, even more importantly, to his role in the team and the cohesiveness of the tactics we use. Tactics influence the stats a lot, which is why it is useless to know stats without knowing the tactical aspect of football. For example, it is unreasonable to expect assists from players who activate deep in a possession-oriented system, like Busi and Arthur did last year. How many assists and goals did Busquets have under Guardiola? Probably very very few.

    Players who play higher up usually get them because the main pattern of play for a possession team is from sector to sector to sector. Deep midfield -> attacking midfield -> strikers. Very rarely you see the whole attacking midfield sector missing from the passing pattern. So, the cases where you bypass a whole sector and play long balls from deep directly in the box to the strikers are very isolated. This type of directness is more used in counter-attacking setups, to have quicker transitions. Possession teams go through each sector, in a more natural progressive way.

    For example, Busquets who was playing deep midfield was rarely in a situation to pass the ball directly to Villa, Pedro, and Messi. The ball usually went from Busi to Xavi/Iniesta, and then to the front three and Alves (the attacking fullback who had extensive attacking roles). Even Xavi himself, the master passer, registered way fewer assists when Messi started to become a playmaker under Pep because Messi was eating some of his numbers in terms of direct offensive contributions. Xavi instead developed even more importance in tempo setting and controlling the game. So it was a trade-off. Less great attacking stats, but in 2010/11 we were at our maximum level in controlling the game and not allowing the opponent any chances. This resulted in some of the most one-sided blowouts ever seen at this level, where we would amass huge numbers of possession which made it look like a continuous attack vs defense training session.

    This happened because Messi started to become a link between middle and attack. He was starting to register more assists at the expense of the midfielders. In more ways than one, we actually moved from a 3 man midfield to a 4 man midfield, with Messi being the most creative part of it in the final 3rd, and the other three being in charge of commanding the game and the possession. This is also what is happening now since Messi is more of a no10 than a forward. The midfield often includes Messi as he drops often to pick up the ball in deeper areas, basically taking over a big part of the role of creating plays from the actual midfielder.

    For example, Xavi registered 30 assists in 2008/09 when he was the playmaker of the team, and Messi played in a near classical winger type, with a clear no9 in Eto'o playing center forward. More or less the classical structure of a 4-3-3, quite similar to Rijkhaard's use of Messi with Eto'o and Ronaldinho. In 2010/11, when Messi moved centrally in a false 9 position (meaning he now had both playmaking and scoring role), Xavi's assists dropped by a staggering 50%. Yea, that's right. In 2010/11, in what was arguably the best Barcelona ever, Xavi's influence in making assists was cut in half compared to two years prior. In return, Messi registered no less than than 24 assists in 2010/11, 11 assists more than the average he got in the years he was a winger. It doesn't get any more obvious than that.

    An untrained eye in the tactical area of the game will interpret this stat as a decline in Xavi's ability to make assists. I've seen this happening so often on football forums. A stat shows something, and stat fanatics jump at this and instead of really finding out what has happened, they say the player got worse. Xavi just got older and couldn't keep the same level of playing. But that's ridiculous obviously, Xavi was in 2011 as good as he's ever been if not even better. The drop in assists is tied to the change in the team's tactics and Messi's new position and role inside the system. The system shifted, some roles were redrawn on the board and the numbers reflected this change.

    So, the point of all of this is that the numbers of the players in a team as filled with talent as Barcelona will reflect more the efficiency of the system than the quality of the players, which is imo beyond any doubt. We at Barcelona have access to the finest of players in the world, starters and most important players at their national teams. So the job is to make it work and have each player in their best role, with the proper structure. Only by doing this we can really asses the quality of the player. You don't jump at the conclusion that the player is trash (like most are doing here) before you give this player the right tool to perform at the level that is demanded from him.

    As long as Messi's position will remain more advanced, and play near the box and not 30m away from it, Arthur's assists numbers will be very good, simply because he is too good of a player for that not to happen. But if Messi will continue to drop in midfield as often as before with Valverde in charge, he will be passed to automatically. And will eat away a big chunk of Arthur's and Frenkie's attacking contributions. It's not hard to understand why, as I've just explained. But the users here will say Arthur's level dropped compared with the beginning of the season, Frenkie is overrated and so on. I've seen this before.
    Last edited by serghei; 12th October 2019 at 10:47 AM.

  14. #5729
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    Benching this guy vs Liverpool was sack worthy on its own.

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    I like how @BBZ8800 named me first in that other list.