Arthur

clemente said:

I noticed he always looks gassed at 70min and at that time he usually gets subbed off, and its like that since he joined us, once again our fitness staff comes suspect.

Click to expand...

I think his stamina was a lot worse at the beginning of the season. It has already improved a lot and I expect it will continue to in the future.

YodaMaster said:

Does Arthur have to improve defensively ? Absolutely. He has to work harder, and not only defensively. I agree with you.
Normally he will cause he's young and he's far from being an end product. But for that to happen, not only he needs to play, he also needs to be managed correctly.

I'll say it this way: when you watch general contribution as a CM in a game, Arthur brings more to the team than Rakitic.
By general contribution I mean defensive contribution, offensive contribution and build up plays.

If we talk about defensive contribution:
- 2019 Rakitic is average (slightly above average at best)
- Arthur is average
- Vidal surpasses both of them by a long margin in that aspect of the game.

If we talk about offensive contribution:
- Arthur right now is meh but he has all the quality to shine in offensive scenarios, he already showed it even if it's rare, he's only 22
- 2019 Rakitic is absolute shit, he really has nothing left outside of maybe his long range shot but we haven't seen it for a while
=> It's fair to say that Arthur is more promising in that aspect as he can only go up from here while Rakitic is going down more and more every game.

If we speak about build ups (especially from the back and against high pressure)
- Arthur is by far our best CM for that task
- Rakitic is our worst at this exercise
=> a galaxy separates them in this aspect.

So how do you justify Rakitic being the undisputed first choice CM in Barça ? If the priority is to defend and work hard without the ball, Vidal surpasses Rakitic pretty easily. If the priority is to play possession football, Arthur is miles ahead. Knowing that Barça since Cruyff our savior has always been all about possession and attractive football, the pecking order for these 3 players should be:
1. Arthur
2. Vidal
3. Rakitic
And I really do believe that only one of Rakitic and Vidal should be at the club.

As you can see, I'm being fair so I recognize that right now Arthur is far from being a workhorse. He isn't showing great activity in defensive aspects.
If a team sits deep and let the opponent play tiki taka in its last third, Arthur isn't the best option for that team. But what Barça fan wants his team to play such football ?
I want Barcelona to play high on the field, constantly attacking football, and press high when the ball is lost in order to get it back as quick as possible (e.g. Pep's 5 seconds rule). Sitting deep and waiting could happen even for such team in a game, but it shouldn't happen more than 10-15 minutes overall.

I believe that a great attack minded coach would have managed to learn Coutinho discipline and Barça would play with a Busquets-Arthur-Coutinho trio at Camp Nou, and with a Busquets-Arthur-Vidal midfield in big away games. That's true Barça reasoning.

Click to expand...

A few things.
1. I don't agree that Rakitic is ONLY slightly above average in defending

Let's dig to stats again to test Rakitic vs Vidal in defense.
And also, Rakitic vs Arthur in defense.

Rakitic:
La Liga: 1526 minutes: 15 tackles, 35 interceptions, 14 clearances, 5 blocks
CL: 491 minutes: 5 tackles, 11 interceptions, 2 clearances, 2 blocks:
Total: 2017 minutes: 20 tackles, 46 interceptions, 16 clearances, 7 blocks

Arthur:
La Liga: 742 minutes: 6 tackles, 3 interceptions, 1 clearances, 0 blocks
CL: 336 minutes: 8 tackles, 2 interceptions, 1 clearances, 1 block
= Total: 1078 minutes: 14 tackles, 5 interceptions, 2 clearances, 1 block

Vidal:
La Liga: 717 minutes: 27 tackles, 11 interceptions, 6 clearances, 1 block
CL: 126 minutes: 9 tackles, 6 interceptions, 2 clearances, 0 blocks
= 843 minutes=36 tackles, 17 interceptions, 8 clearances, 1 block

Busquets:
La Liga: 1464 minutes: 45 tackles, 29 int, 7 cl, 3 blocks
CL: 495 minutes: 22 tackles, 6 int, 6 cl, 1 block
= 1958: 67, 35, 13, 4

Let's say that BOTH tackles, interceptions, clearances and blocks are=ways of stopping an opponent's attack.
Now, let's see in MINUTES how often each of these guys will stop opponent's actions this or that way:
13,6 minutes needed, Vidal
16,5 minutes needed, Busquets
22,7 minutes needed, Rakitic
53,9 minutes needed, Arthur

Tackles, minutes needed per 1:
23 Vidal
29 Busquets
77 Arthur
100 Rakitic

Interceptions, minutes needed per 1:
44 Rakitic
50 Vidal
56 Busquets
216 Arthur

Clearances, minutes needed per 1:
105 Vidal
126 Rakitic
151 Busquets
539 Arthur

Blocks, minutes needed per 1:
288 Rakitic
490 Busquets
843 Vidal
1078 Arthur

A few interesting observations after looking at stats:
1. Vidal is better in defense than Busquets in overall defensive stats, even though Busquets plays deeper. So, regarding a theory that Arthur has a low number of tackles/interceptions because he plays higher up the pitch (even though he is not playing that much higher tbf)=it doesn't fit.
2. Rakitic is the king of interceptions and blocks. He has better stats than Busi, Vidal, Arthur.
And again, Rakitic has more interceptions and blocks than Busi, even though he plays higher up the pitch than Busi.
So, imo, again, it is NOT ONLY about how deep do you play. (Imagine Coutinho as a pivot. Vidal would still have twice as many tackles and interceptions than him even though he would play higher up the pitch)
3. for me, the worrisome part about Arthur's defending are ACTUAL DEFENDING stats like interceptions and blocks (when a team is in our half and we needed to defend heavily). He has only 5 interceptions and 1 block in a whole season.
He is good in tackles and applying pressure (pep's style) though.
That is visible even on the eye test.

Further, you are comparing player by player.
I am comparing players as a unit, not a player by player.

So, my pick is: Busi-Raki-Vidal.
BUT, if you want to play Arthur in some matches, which is fine, then you need 2 out of those 3 around him to cover for HIS defensive deficiences plus to cover for 3 attackers who don't defend too much.

This whole debate started a few weeks ago as my reply to post where people say: Idiot EV needs to find a way to field BOTH Arthur, Coutinho, Dembele, Messi (and Suarez).
Well, there is a solution:
1. we can play with this line up on training grounds when the result doesn't matter
2. or against really crappy teams at Camp Nou
3. or against teams with 10 players
4. or when we are losing in the last 10-20 minutes and we need to go all in

Btw, if I were a coach, I would play Dembele-Suarez-Messi, Busi-Raki-Vidal.
My subs and players whom I would rotate:
Semedo/Roberto RB
Coutinho/Dembele LW
Coutinho/someone as a CM in the last 10-20 minutes at home, if we are winning 3:0 or more.
Arthur as a 4th CM/rotation.
Malcom sub LW and RW.

That's more or less it.
So, I don't have anything against Arthur playing.
But he needs to play with 2 guys with good defensive stats around him.

** Also, I would like to see a few matches in a row without Rakitic.
To see whether a team would be THAT better as majority of you think.
Or we would get way weaker defensively on larger samples.
We'll see.

** also, to consider, as [MENTION=23089]Arizona Scott[/MENTION] said: imagine playing a CL quarters against Atletico.
And have Arthur. We will get some control and lose some defending.
But now, imagine free kicks (like against Roma). With Rakitic out, we are even weaker in defending corners.

Well done BBZ. These stats are in tune with my observations as well. I still think lots of rotation of Busi, Rakitic and Vidal in league is critical--need to have these guys peaking april/may--not gassed. Plenty happy with Arthur starting most league matches and getting 70 minutes or so.

Someone check Scott and BBZ's IP adresses.

sidepass sidepass sidepass backpass sidepass backpass sidepass.

Too bad we sold thiago alcantara back then

I think the ability to soak up pressure and carry the ball from the back are very very underrated.

he is still very young and could very well develop more confidence to drive more throughballs and more risky plays.

Have we considered that he's fulfilling the tactics given by the manager who is risk averse? If he wants playing time he cant make those risky passes or he'll never get a game again.

We've needed someone who was press resistant and could hold the ball very well, He is young and can develop further with more playing time. I think his development (the whole squad really) would do better with a pep type coach.

FCBfan22 said:

Someone check Scott and BBZ's IP adresses.

Click to expand...

Please go ahead 😉

I am a stats junkie but don't have bbzs time on my hand. Might check the ip address of the group (or maybe it is one) that seems to overreact to bbz

Arizona Scott said:

Please go ahead ��

I am a stats junkie but don't have bbzs time on my hand. Might check the ip address of the group (or maybe it is one) that seems to overreact to bbz

Click to expand...

FCB1987 has already exposed that group.

Arizona Scott said:

Please go ahead ��

I am a stats junkie but don't have bbzs time on my hand. Might check the ip address of the group (or maybe it is one) that seems to overreact to bbz

Click to expand...

Don't reply to personal insults and pokes.
It will happen often, especially if you'll have some ideas which are opposite to the opinion of a majority.

Regarding ideas which are against a popular opinion, be prepared for: you don't know too much about football, why are you Barca's fan, do you even watch matches, are you the same person as xx and similar?

Those insults have poked me to some extent in the first 99 occasions over years.
After 100-1000 insults, it gets easier and you won't react anymore
In fact, it starts to be fun to some extent

Some general tips for internet fighting, insults and trolls:
If you have something to say, keep on topic, don't insult people.
Guys who are insulting you, going offtopic, mentioning other topics (like one guy here who posts to me: Bbz, remember Rafinha>>>>>Dembele post, hahahahaha? each 2-3 days), just ignore them (it is fun to some extent and and you are training your nerves and mental strength.
Offtopic and insulting posts are usually a sign that a person doesn't have anything more to say in a certain topic and has turned in into personal insults, or as mentioned above which happens often: they'll mention something where you were wrong in the past to imply that your are probably wrong again, since they don't have other ideas how to counter your CURRENT argument.
For example: I write a post how Arthur has 0,30 interceptions per match (which is a statistical FACT).
A person 2 replies: yeah. You also said that Dembele won't make it here. Why should we listen to you?

So, you see, guys who have something "logical" to reply and counter your argument will write something (like: that's because Arthur is playing higher up the pitch. Or: that's not Arthur's duty. Or: he will improve in that aspect over years etc.)
But, also, that means: when someone writes an insult or a shit about you, it basically means: you won. This guy have nothing to say regarding a topic and his only option were personal insults.

If you'll go into fights, nothing good will come off it, plus you'll annoy other readers who are not interested in reading internet fights between 2 random dudes on a forum.
So, when you'll write against some popular opinions, always be prepared to some trolling, poking, insults, bad words.
And then, you can either continue with your posts, on-topic and not going into fights.
Or, you can: fight, which is also stupid.
Or, not posting anything, which is also stupid.

FCBfan22 said:

Someone check Scott and BBZ's IP adresses.

Click to expand...

So, when you read a poking post like this one, just read it, laugh for a few seconds, and move on to the next (ONTOPIC, normal) post.

Good luck

BBZ8800 said:

So, you see, guys who have something "logical" to reply and counter your argument will write something (like: that's because Arthur is playing higher up the pitch. Or: that's not Arthur's duty. Or: he will improve in that aspect over years etc.)
But, also, that means: when someone writes an insult or a shit about you, it basically means: you won. This guy have nothing to say regarding a topic and his only option were personal insults.

So, when you read a poking post like this one, just read it, laugh for a few seconds, and move on to the next (ONTOPIC, normal) post.

Click to expand...

Well BBZ, it's nice that you are actually enjoying yourself here. So do I, partly for the same reasons.

But (and there is always a but) the slight problem with your really enjoyable longish posts are different. The agenda you try to represent looks analytic, sometimes statistically aided, but actually they are pure representations of your personal taste and rarely anything else.

Your agenda(s) is(are) simply warple around a very personal preference of players, a particular player or just playing styles.
You have your own favorites and disliked players, just as anyone else does, but at the same time you try to envelope your personal preferences in a kind of "objective" manner, aided with stats, speudo-stats, but only when it becomes necessary.

No, I'm not mentioning Arthur here, he is a relatively young and new corroboree on the dance-parquet, and no need to mention Dembele, or some others.
It's just enough to know or look up your highly emotional, biassed and twisted antipathy against Neymar, and mind it that recently you have actually started picking on Messi too.

In your world, extremely skillful and extremely talented players have no place, so rather, tall, somewhat physically gifted mediocrity or middle-classness rules. A la Andre Gomes and the like.
Your Pedro-mania clearly shows that historically and tells almost everything.

Therefore you may laugh and watch simplified reactions to your deliverances, but the fact remains the fact, namely that you are just as biassed as anyone else can be, or even more so, enveloping or disguising your actual, usual or daily agenda into a bit more literal representation.

Your ideas are always "communistic", depreciating and belittling skill and individuality. The problem with that is simple. That mentality could be useful for a 3rd grade team in a rural league, but it is far from being the Barca typical mentality and from typical Barca advantages, namely having the best and most gifted individual players.

So you may enjoy the strange reactions while sitting in your fort somewhere, but just chew on the fact that "statistically speaking" you are usually proven wrong, much more often than you are being proven right...

Lol@BBZ dancing the victory dance after he has been spotted numerous times shuffling data, omitting stats he doesn't like and even outright lying to make his agenda look "scientific" and then, after caught pants down, disappearing from certain threads for a while to wait, when things cool down to spew another barrage of shit.

Gnidrologist said:

Lol@BBZ dancing the victory dance after he has been spotted numerous times shuffling data, omitting stats he doesn't like and even outright lying to make his agenda look "scientific" and then, after caught pants down, disappearing from certain threads for a while to wait, when things cool down to spew another barrage of shit.

Click to expand...

I havn't seen that but i have seen some quite extreme and irrational views exposed with data bbz has shared, and more often than not the data matches what i see on the pitch--and i try to take a lot of angles in account for each player and few players (messi, xavi, iniesta, puyol) dont' have some grey areas when you analyze them.

Potroh said:

Well BBZ, it's nice that you are actually enjoying yourself here. So do I, partly for the same reasons.

But (and there is always a but) the slight problem with your really enjoyable longish posts are different. The agenda you try to represent looks analytic, sometimes statistically aided, but actually they are pure representations of your personal taste and rarely anything else.

Your agenda(s) is(are) simply warple around a very personal preference of players, a particular player or just playing styles.
You have your own favorites and disliked players, just as anyone else does, but at the same time you try to envelope your personal preferences in a kind of "objective" manner, aided with stats, speudo-stats, but only when it becomes necessary.

No, I'm not mentioning Arthur here, he is a relatively young and new corroboree on the dance-parquet, and no need to mention Dembele, or some others.
It's just enough to know or look up your highly emotional, biassed and twisted antipathy against Neymar, and mind it that recently you have actually started picking on Messi too.

In your world, extremely skillful and extremely talented players have no place, so rather, tall, somewhat physically gifted mediocrity or middle-classness rules. A la Andre Gomes and the like.
Your Pedro-mania clearly shows that historically and tells almost everything.

Therefore you may laugh and watch simplified reactions to your deliverances, but the fact remains the fact, namely that you are just as biassed as anyone else can be, or even more so, enveloping or disguising your actual, usual or daily agenda into a bit more literal representation.

Your ideas are always "communistic", depreciating and belittling skill and individuality. The problem with that is simple. That mentality could be useful for a 3rd grade team in a rural league, but it is far from being the Barca typical mentality and from typical Barca advantages, namely having the best and most gifted individual players.

So you may enjoy the strange reactions while sitting in your fort somewhere, but just chew on the fact that "statistically speaking" you are usually proven wrong, much more often than you are being proven right...

Click to expand...

In his words - If his posts have more reason than yours, let us say his posts have 98% reason and your posts say 60% reason, there is no meaning in ridiculing him and accepting your points! It is all math brah