What relations? This is totally different than our deals with Brazil, and there is a reason why we do this deals in Brazil only. Lyon only knows money and won't let us get such options and probably not Ajax either. Only way is if one of them sign one of our players and we insisted on such option. Also Ruiz has low buyout so he controls his destiny.
I agree it's easier to do those type of deals with Brazilian clubs who need money more than good European clubs but Lyon and especially Ajax are considered as selling clubs and they will sell for the right price. I don't see any of those clubs holding out for "unrealistic" transfer fees like Liverpool or Dortmund. Of course at the end money talks but being on good terms with Lyon (it was reported few weeks ago that Aulas admitted "he gave Umtiti to his good friend Bartomeu as a gift", once he realised he could've gotten much more for him), Ajax or Betis could help us.
If we are truly convinced that De Ligt, Aouar,... are the players we want for the future but at the same time think it's the best for them to keep developing at their club for another season (because they wouldn't get much playing time with us) then we can pay let's say 10M in advance and agree on a future transfer fee for them but let them at their respective clubs for one more season.
Or we could buy and leave them on loan but arrange payments so that we'd pay 20-30% of the transfer fee when the deal is agreed and the rest next year when we'd actually get a player (most transfers are paid in installments anyway so this wouldn't be something new). Don't you think Ajax or Lyon would agree to those type of deals? They would get some money upfront, have a player for one more season and they would have a year to find his replacement. Of course there are also risks (but clubs are gambling with practically every transfer because they never know what exactly they'll get) involved with these type of deals like player suffering a longterm injury (this could also happen if we bring him here immediately as well as we've seen with Dembele though), dropping in form,... Maybe it will work maybe it won't but I think future transfers is another option to improve the team that we should consider.
You're right about Fabian Ruiz. I was thinking about buy and loan him back to Betis option here as well, that's why I mentioned him. And we are also in good relations with Betis SD Serra Ferrer so maybe they could drop Ruiz's price a bit if we'd buy him and leave him on loan.
Coutinho,Mina & Dembele are already taking their adaptation period this season. Both are almost starters now and next season is supposed to be "there year" not a year of adaptation.
Coutinho and Dembele should be starters next season (though with Griezmann incoming I'm not convinced Dembele will be) but because of missing most of the season or coming only in January it's possible they still won't be fully integrated into the team like they would ideally be in other circumstances. Also, EV has used Coutinho in 3-4 different positions so far but if Iniesta leaves he'll have to take over for him. I believe he can do that job but again, it will most likely take some time for him to adapt to that role. That's what I was talking about.
If Vermaelen will stay then Mina will have to work hard to take his spot as 3rd CB as long as Vermaelen will stay healthy and play on as good level as he had in January. But given the fact he won't play much this season we could still consider next season as his first real one.
Thing is, is changing the deadweight really big change? And how is that even related to De Ligt?
It's not directly related to De Ligt, I was just expressing my general opinion about this. My point was not about selling the deadweight (which we should and hopefully also will get some good money for them) but more on the fact of replacing them with more unproven kids which most people would consider a good idea because it would look good on a paper but might not work in reality.
If Griezmann signs, Paco is as good as gone, no way around it. he won't here with 2 attackers are ahead of him while he barely plays with only one in the club atm
Agreed. I like Paco and think he's a useful squad player but if we'll get Griezmann he'll become expendable.
Denis? right now he is just a number in our squad.
Rafinha and Deulofeu? They are already out, we just need to get money from them.
Agreed. Denis and players returning from loans should all be sold. Maybe include a buy-back option for Munir just in case he'll continue to develop good and maybe he can return as Griezmann's backup in 2-3 years when Suarez leaves. I assume he'll go to a smaller club for something like 3-5M so we could try to negotiate a 10-12M buy back.
As you mentioned above maybe we could also use Munir to get first option on some of the players we want. Maybe Betis (they seems to like our players), Ajax or Lyon will be interested. Or other clubs with players we like and could possibly target in the future.
There are probably 4 types of bench players
1-Those who aren't good enough
2-Young promising players who will accept to be on bench for a chance to be starter later (like Roberto few years ago,Pedro and Iniesta before)
3-Veteran players who are content with their roles at this stage of their career, but with China money it isn't easy to have those now.
4-Good players who are just content to be here anyway. like Cillessen. Those are very rare
First option is bad for the team, 4th option is rare. The best 2 are 2nd and 3rd but in both cases you will need a high rate of turnover. That is why it is a bit understandable that we might prefer option number 2 as it means having a good bench player who could be once a starter fulfilling Crujif statement that best change that is from within (bench players growing into starter, youth players turning into bench players in 1st team)
Types 1 and 2 are not always exclusive as we've seen with our signings in 2016 though I have better opinion about most of them (especially Paco and Gomes) than most people here. The only one who has totally disappointed me is Denis who was actually the one who I was the most excited about when we've signed him. Most of them were signed as backups/squad players (there was absolutely zero chances that Paco would be as starter with Suarez/MSN infront of him and the same for Digne/Alba and Cillessen/MATS) so I don't think we really failed that transfer window because only Umtiti has become a starter. But at the same time we could also do better trying to sign players that would actually challenge our starters to improve instead of just settling for the bench players. I know it's not easy to find young players willing to sit behind MSN (Paco was our 5th of 6th forward choice that summer after G. Jesus, Dembele, Vietto, Gameiro and probably someone else I forgot rejected us) or challenging a top 3 (when in form) LB in the world though.
As said I'm not against bringing young fresh talent to the club but spending more money on new bench players to replace current ones just because we hope they'll work out better it's not always good. That's why I've become more cautious about what I want (maybe BBZ's influence
). Replacing Paco with Griezmann is one thing but changing still useful backups like Vermaelen, Digne, Vidal, Gomes* and even Paulinho** with more unknowns could also be risky. Madrid did something similar last summer replacing bench players (yes, they were of higher quality than ours but still) like Morata, James, Pepe, Danilo,... with youngsters Mayoral, Ceballos, Vallejo, Theo, Achraf,... Some of them could still succeed longterm in RM but so far their experiment has failed. Bench players basically won them the league last season and now they are 15 points behind us. Yes, their transfer policy is not the only reason for that but it's still clear their bench is much worse this season. While our benchwarmers are not worldbeaters they are still doing their job when needed, EV trusts them and knows how to use them. I know people will say they are shit and we shouldn't have problems replacing them but doing that with a bunch of unproven kids (like many people wants) who would first need time to integrate and get EV's confidence could also misfire. It's very possible those new players also wouldn't bring expected results both short-term (next season) and long-term and more importantly, I don't think we can financially afford to change more than 1-2 bench players after already investing 140M in Arthur and Griezmann.
*I know I'm in minority here and I could totally see us selling him because he still has the highest market value of all our possible rejects but I also wouldn't mind him staying
**I know he's not transferable at the moment but some people would still gladly sell him and bring someone younger
Back to De Ligt, I think Roberto prefers to try to have the replacement already before player moved to bench, already spoke in summer about how he doesn't think situation in CB is comfortable. I think if he stays he will really hope to get a new CB in summer (De Ligt seem top of list, but surely not his only option) depending on budget. Also we don't know how things is gonna fold with vermaelen who people seem to forget his injury history after being healthy for just 2 months, and Mina who EV has yet to put faith into
I'm also affraid of Vermaelen's injury history but think he's gained Valverde's full confidence and will stay. I hope we won't renew his contract for another season like it was rumoured though. Keeping Vermaelen next season could also be a good longterm solution. Mina would get the next season to prove if he has a future here. I don't expect him to become a starter but he should become a clear #3 CB before next season ends. Then we can look for another younger CB to develop as 4th CB, competing for minutes with Mina and eventually maybe one of them would replace Pique longterm.
Of course if Umtiti leaves (which I don't believe) things would change dramatically. I wouldn't be comfortable with Vermaelen or Mina as starters alongside Pique and I doubt De Ligt is ready for that right now so I would prefer to buy someone with more experience in that case.
