Matthijs de Ligt

A

Arizona Scott

New member
Collective market values of players

EPl 8.3 (Billion)
La Liga 5.5
Serie A 4.8
Bund 4.3 (note with 2 fewer clubs so average per player in line with Serie A)
Ligue 1 3.3

Then there are bunch of leagues from .5 to 1.1 billion...Portugal, Holland, Russia, Belgium, Turkey, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico...and then China is next at .45 billion

How about the median of the bottom third of clubs in each league (ballparking here):
EPL 180mil
Bund 110mil
La Liga 80mil
Serie A 64mil
Ligue 1 60 mil

How about how many from each league are part of the 20 clubs with the most player value?
EPL 7
Serie A 5
Bund 3
La Liga 3
Ligue 1 2

Now moving from player talent/to value, how about UEFA coefficients, that reflect performance of the top 6-7 clubs among these leagues.
La Liga kills it in this measure https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/crank2019.html, 22 points from the next ranked nation. And it isn't just Real and Barca. Atletico is #4 and Sevilla is tied for 7th. In fact Sevilla, and who no-one would call a financial powerhouse, is close to PSG. Sevilla plays great football way above its financial might, and has most of the past decade.

Now those are numbers with limitations. None tell the full story. Market value shoes player collective value (where EPL dominates), while UEFA ranking shows performance of typically 7 clubs from a league. In fact it is some stilted against the big leagues, because then you need some upper middle clubs in years from those leagues, in the past like Everton, Southhampton, Bilboa, Celta Vigo, have to navigate tourneys an afterthought to them and where their league performance is 5x as important, and difficult. The UEFA coefficient is really staked to favor Serie A with five clubs with top 20 financial might but also don't have quite the stress of the EPL in making Europe, and sometimes just surviving period (see Southampton now). Serie A way underperforms in Europe relative to financial might and their leagues collective players value. Probably largely due to the Milan clubs being a shell from where they were historically. Ligue 1 is what you would expect, better than Portugal and Russia (where they used to fight with places with and should be way clear of based on talent in their leagues) but not really a threat to the top 4.

I already made the case if you look at transfers, players who struggle in La Liga and EPL yet return to Serie A or Ligue 1 and thrive again. Many examples.

How about the eye test? From my eyes at least the pace and physicality of the EPL is pretty unique. See very good players in other league struggle and some return to places like Serie A, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 and their form is terrific. In La Liga I see terrific technique and skills, even on some so not so well funded clubs. I see minnows play some excellent football vs Barca & Real, and I see those big clubs absolutely storm minnows in the CL from other nations where they look like they are playing different sports. I think there are a ton of excellent footballers in La Liga outside the top clubs and probably the next tier in Spain too, veterans maybe not high in value (transfer market) but who would really stand out in other leagues in terms of completeness and technique. I think La Liga coaches are better too, more coherent ways of playing. Don't have evidence for this, just an eye test.
 
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A

Ajax

New member
Arizona Scott said:
Collective market values of players

EPl 8.3 (Billion)
La Liga 5.5
Serie A 4.8
Bund 4.3 (note with 2 fewer clubs so average per player in line with Serie A)
Ligue 1 3.3

Then there are bunch of leagues from .5 to 1.1 billion...Portugal, Holland, Russia, Belgium, Turkey, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico...and then China is next at .45 billion

How about the median of the bottom third of clubs in each league (ballparking here):
EPL 180mil
Bund 110mil
La Liga 80mil
Serie A 64mil
Ligue 1 60 mil

How about how many from each league are part of the 20 clubs with the most player value?
EPL 7
Serie A 5
Bund 3
La Liga 3
Ligue 1 2

Now moving from player talent/to value, how about UEFA coefficients, that reflect performance of the top 6-7 clubs among these leagues.
La Liga kills it in this measure https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/crank2019.html, 22 points from the next ranked nation. And it isn't just Real and Barca. Atletico is #4 and Sevilla is tied for 7th. In fact Sevilla, and who no-one would call a financial powerhouse, is close to PSG. Sevilla plays great football way above its financial might, and has most of the past decade.

Now those are numbers with limitations. None tell the full story. Market value shoes player collective value (where EPL dominates), while UEFA ranking shows performance of typically 7 clubs from a league. In fact it is some stilted against the big leagues, because then you need some upper middle clubs in years from those leagues, in the past like Everton, Southhampton, Bilboa, Celta Vigo, have to navigate tourneys an afterthought to them and where their league performance is 5x as important, and difficult. The UEFA coefficient is really staked to favor Serie A with five clubs with top 20 financial might but also don't have quite the stress of the EPL in making Europe, and sometimes just surviving period (see Southampton now). Serie A way underperforms in Europe relative to financial might and their leagues collective players value. Probably largely due to the Milan clubs being a shell from where they were historically. Ligue 1 is what you would expect, better than Portugal and Russia (where they used to fight with places with and should be way clear of based on talent in their leagues) but not really a threat to the top 4.

I already made the case if you look at transfers, players who struggle in La Liga and EPL yet return to Serie A or Ligue 1 and thrive again. Many examples.

How about the eye test? From my eyes at least the pace and physicality of the EPL is pretty unique. See very good players in other league struggle and some return to places like Serie A, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 and their form is terrific. In La Liga I see terrific technique and skills, even on some so not so well funded clubs. I see minnows play some excellent football vs Barca & Real, and I see those big clubs absolutely storm minnows in the CL from other nations where they look like they are playing different sports. I think there are a ton of excellent footballers in La Liga outside the top clubs and probably the next tier in Spain too, veterans maybe not high in value (transfer market) but who would really stand out in other leagues in terms of completeness and technique. I think La Liga coaches are better too, more coherent ways of playing. Don't have evidence for this, just an eye test.
Click to expand...

Quality post
 
N

Newcomer

New member
Raketa10 said:
What do you mean?



Have you watched Vermaelen and Pique yesterday? Umtiti is injured for a long time, Lenglet is definitely not a world class defender so we need to strenghten our defense next summer!
Click to expand...

You wanted that particular Ajax defender because of your team defensive prowess.
However, Ajax was just catastrophic, they couldn't defend to save their life. Got hit times and times again with counters, often giving 1 on 1 with goalkeeper. De ligt was sometimes playing as if he was a forward instead of providing cover (and they were leading by two goals !).

I would say that overall Ajax players were good with the ball but terrible without and allowed way too much opportunities to the opponent. Very naive team.

Those two barca targets de Ligt and de Jong didn't have a good game at all.
 
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Bulgroz

Bulgroz

Senior Member
Arizona Scott said:
Collective market values of players

EPl 8.3 (Billion)
La Liga 5.5
Serie A 4.8
Bund 4.3 (note with 2 fewer clubs so average per player in line with Serie A)
Ligue 1 3.3

Then there are bunch of leagues from .5 to 1.1 billion...Portugal, Holland, Russia, Belgium, Turkey, Argentina, Brazil, Mexico...and then China is next at .45 billion

How about the median of the bottom third of clubs in each league (ballparking here):
EPL 180mil
Bund 110mil
La Liga 80mil
Serie A 64mil
Ligue 1 60 mil

How about how many from each league are part of the 20 clubs with the most player value?
EPL 7
Serie A 5
Bund 3
La Liga 3
Ligue 1 2

Now moving from player talent/to value, how about UEFA coefficients, that reflect performance of the top 6-7 clubs among these leagues.
La Liga kills it in this measure https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/crank2019.html, 22 points from the next ranked nation. And it isn't just Real and Barca. Atletico is #4 and Sevilla is tied for 7th. In fact Sevilla, and who no-one would call a financial powerhouse, is close to PSG. Sevilla plays great football way above its financial might, and has most of the past decade.

Now those are numbers with limitations. None tell the full story. Market value shoes player collective value (where EPL dominates), while UEFA ranking shows performance of typically 7 clubs from a league. In fact it is some stilted against the big leagues, because then you need some upper middle clubs in years from those leagues, in the past like Everton, Southhampton, Bilboa, Celta Vigo, have to navigate tourneys an afterthought to them and where their league performance is 5x as important, and difficult. The UEFA coefficient is really staked to favor Serie A with five clubs with top 20 financial might but also don't have quite the stress of the EPL in making Europe, and sometimes just surviving period (see Southampton now). Serie A way underperforms in Europe relative to financial might and their leagues collective players value. Probably largely due to the Milan clubs being a shell from where they were historically. Ligue 1 is what you would expect, better than Portugal and Russia (where they used to fight with places with and should be way clear of based on talent in their leagues) but not really a threat to the top 4.

I already made the case if you look at transfers, players who struggle in La Liga and EPL yet return to Serie A or Ligue 1 and thrive again. Many examples.

How about the eye test? From my eyes at least the pace and physicality of the EPL is pretty unique. See very good players in other league struggle and some return to places like Serie A, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 and their form is terrific. In La Liga I see terrific technique and skills, even on some so not so well funded clubs. I see minnows play some excellent football vs Barca & Real, and I see those big clubs absolutely storm minnows in the CL from other nations where they look like they are playing different sports. I think there are a ton of excellent footballers in La Liga outside the top clubs and probably the next tier in Spain too, veterans maybe not high in value (transfer market) but who would really stand out in other leagues in terms of completeness and technique. I think La Liga coaches are better too, more coherent ways of playing. Don't have evidence for this, just an eye test.
Click to expand...

I don't understand your post. You're answering to people talking about Serie A/Ligue 1 by saying "EPL and La Liga are better !". Well, duh doy, you didn't need to make a full post about it if that's what you meant.

Now, if you're trying to argue that Ligue 1 is far behind Serie A, then your arguments are all wrong.

The "player value" is a joke. I don't even know how you can seriously evaluate a team like that. A player's value on transfermarkt is for example impacted by his salary. Wages in Italy and Bundesliga are on average higher than in France.

UEFA coefficient, I've already explained myself several times here. La Liga and EPL gets more teams in european competition, so they get more points (and their teams get more european experience and more money), but in any case there's no competition between the top teams in La Liga/EPL and the top teams in France, so I'm not even going to argue that Lyon is as good as Atletico, because it would be dumb and pointless. You're just arguing something that nobody's arguing against when you're pointing out that Seville is a good team for example.

I've already crushed your "many examples" by giving several counter examples of players from the 4 "bigger leagues" failing in France (say hi to Krychowiak for me), or example of great players in Ligue 1 being equally great in other leagues (do I really need to name them all ?). Plenty of "good prospects" from Ligue 1 succeeding in La Liga/EPL (Kante or Lenglet). Can even name examples of mediocre Ligue 1 players doing ok in other leagues (just last week, Braithwaite scored against Barca AND Real, Lo Celso is seen as one of the best midfield in La Liga...). Examples are not an argument, especially when counter examples abound.

As for your eye test, well I don't see how I can argue against it, since it's well... an eye test. Especially if you putting Ligue 1 against La Liga. And especially if you're talking about technical skill, because it's clear for everyone that skillwise, La Liga teams are better than french teams. However, la Ligue 1 is a very athletic league, so depending on the type of players you are, you might struggle in Ligue 1 and do well in La Liga (Lo Celso, or even Arrambarri who was piss poor in Ligue 1 and is a starter in Getafe), or the opposite. That being said, I've already mentioned that the worst La Liga teams are probably slightly better on a whole than the worst french teams (and yes, coaches are one of the reasons). And La Liga is obviously much more entertaining.
 
Nothanks

Nothanks

New member
Newcomer said:
You wanted that particular Ajax defender because of your team defensive prowess.
However, Ajax was just catastrophic, they couldn't defend to save their life. Got hit times and times again with counters, often giving 1 on 1 with goalkeeper. De ligt was sometimes playing as if he was a forward instead of providing cover (and they were leading by two goals !).

I would say that overall Ajax players were good with the ball but terrible without and allowed way too much opportunities to the opponent. Very naive team.

Those two barca targets de Ligt and de Jong didn't have a good game at all.
Click to expand...
99% of his fans here that desperately want him to come here haven't watched more than 60 minutes of ajax games.
 
A

Arizona Scott

New member
Bulgroz said:
I don't understand your post. You're answering to people talking about Serie A/Ligue 1 by saying "EPL and La Liga are better !". Well, duh doy, you didn't need to make a full post about it if that's what you meant.

Now, if you're trying to argue that Ligue 1 is far behind Serie A, then your arguments are all wrong.

The "player value" is a joke. I don't even know how you can seriously evaluate a team like that. A player's value on transfermarkt is for example impacted by his salary. Wages in Italy and Bundesliga are on average higher than in France.

UEFA coefficient, I've already explained myself several times here. La Liga and EPL gets more teams in european competition, so they get more points (and their teams get more european experience and more money), but in any case there's no competition between the top teams in La Liga/EPL and the top teams in France, so I'm not even going to argue that Lyon is as good as Atletico, because it would be dumb and pointless. You're just arguing something that nobody's arguing against when you're pointing out that Seville is a good team for example.

I've already crushed your "many examples" by giving several counter examples of players from the 4 "bigger leagues" failing in France (say hi to Krychowiak for me), or example of great players in Ligue 1 being equally great in other leagues (do I really need to name them all ?). Plenty of "good prospects" from Ligue 1 succeeding in La Liga/EPL (Kante or Lenglet). Can even name examples of mediocre Ligue 1 players doing ok in other leagues (just last week, Braithwaite scored against Barca AND Real, Lo Celso is seen as one of the best midfield in La Liga...). Examples are not an argument, especially when counter examples abound.

As for your eye test, well I don't see how I can argue against it, since it's well... an eye test. Especially if you putting Ligue 1 against La Liga. And especially if you're talking about technical skill, because it's clear for everyone that skillwise, La Liga teams are better than french teams. However, la Ligue 1 is a very athletic league, so depending on the type of players you are, you might struggle in Ligue 1 and do well in La Liga (Lo Celso, or even Arrambarri who was piss poor in Ligue 1 and is a starter in Getafe), or the opposite. That being said, I've already mentioned that the worst La Liga teams are probably slightly better on a whole than the worst french teams (and yes, coaches are one of the reasons). And La Liga is obviously much more entertaining.
Click to expand...
You haven't crushed anything. I already stated there are limitations to those data and what they are, but they are the best data we have got. Fyi uefa rankings are divided by the teams playing in europe. More teams in, lower ranking teams from your league making cl/el are equally weighted as your top. Can't really get much more equitable. The fact uefa rankings and transfer market are relatively well aligned also supports the case. Here is the case again, Epl/la liga are a tier, followed by bundesliga and serie a, followed by ligue 1 in a tier, than a group of other leagues (europe/so america). Of course you can try to nit pick but the story from the (converging data from indepedent sources, entirely based on clubs performance from those leagues) and most observers see it for the trends they are.

Oh, and if you don't believe the data, how about 9-0 scoreline in a santioned league match as a very startling indicator of inequity in the quality of clubs in it. Now i am not a fan of overgeneralizing from a single case/event, but if ut is the kind of argument you like, feel free to use it.
 
A

Arizona Scott

New member
Bulgroz said:
I don't understand your post. You're answering to people talking about Serie A/Ligue 1 by saying "EPL and La Liga are better !". Well, duh doy, you didn't need to make a full post about it if that's what you meant.

Now, if you're trying to argue that Ligue 1 is far behind Serie A, then your arguments are all wrong.

The "player value" is a joke. I don't even know how you can seriously evaluate a team like that. A player's value on transfermarkt is for example impacted by his salary. Wages in Italy and Bundesliga are on average higher than in France.

UEFA coefficient, I've already explained myself several times here. La Liga and EPL gets more teams in european competition, so they get more points (and their teams get more european experience and more money), but in any case there's no competition between the top teams in La Liga/EPL and the top teams in France, so I'm not even going to argue that Lyon is as good as Atletico, because it would be dumb and pointless. You're just arguing something that nobody's arguing against when you're pointing out that Seville is a good team for example.

I've already crushed your "many examples" by giving several counter examples of players from the 4 "bigger leagues" failing in France (say hi to Krychowiak for me), or example of great players in Ligue 1 being equally great in other leagues (do I really need to name them all ?). Plenty of "good prospects" from Ligue 1 succeeding in La Liga/EPL (Kante or Lenglet). Can even name examples of mediocre Ligue 1 players doing ok in other leagues (just last week, Braithwaite scored against Barca AND Real, Lo Celso is seen as one of the best midfield in La Liga...). Examples are not an argument, especially when counter examples abound.

As for your eye test, well I don't see how I can argue against it, since it's well... an eye test. Especially if you putting Ligue 1 against La Liga. And especially if you're talking about technical skill, because it's clear for everyone that skillwise, La Liga teams are better than french teams. However, la Ligue 1 is a very athletic league, so depending on the type of players you are, you might struggle in Ligue 1 and do well in La Liga (Lo Celso, or even Arrambarri who was piss poor in Ligue 1 and is a starter in Getafe), or the opposite. That being said, I've already mentioned that the worst La Liga teams are probably slightly better on a whole than the worst french teams (and yes, coaches are one of the reasons). And La Liga is obviously much more entertaining.
Click to expand...
You haven't crushed anything. I already stated there are limitations to those data and what they are, but they are the best data we have got. Fyi uefa rankings are divided by the teams playing in europe. More teams in, lower ranking teams from your league making cl/el are equally weighted as your top. Can't really get much more equitable. The fact uefa rankings and transfer market are relatively well aligned also supports the case. Here is the case again, since you said you didn't understand it, Epl/la liga are a tier, followed by bundesliga and serie a, followed by ligue 1 in a tier, than a group of other leagues (europe/so america). Of course you can try to nit pick a single part of one of these composite statistics that you think shouldnt be there, but the story from the (converging data from indepedent sources, one entirely based on clubs performance from those leagues) and most observers see it for the trends they are.

Oh, and if you don't believe the composite stats and trend data, how about 9-0 scoreline in a santioned league match as a very startling indicator of inequity in the quality of clubs in it. Now i am not a fan of overgeneralizing from a single case/event, but if this is the kind of argument you like, feel free to use it.
 
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