Matthijs de Ligt

Centauri B said:

People always tend to overhype players who score a couple of crucial goals, especially if they are not attacking players. This is what happened with De Ligt.

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Did you watched the game? I never looked at him as the cb goalscorer, but the authority young cb with excellent positioning in ajax. Now im wondering if ten hag was the main reason he was that good at that age. Cuadrado fucked it up with that pass, but his reaction was even worse. If he somehow ended up here he would get couple of passes per game like that..

he is still very young though

Kul_z said:

Did you watched the game? I never looked at him as the cb goalscorer, but the authority young cb with excellent positioning in ajax. Now im wondering if ten hag was the main reason he was that good at that age. Cuadrado fucked it up with that pass, but his reaction was even worse. If he somehow ended up here he would get couple of passes per game like that..

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Ten haag deserves a lot of credit for de ligt and de Jong. I've heard a few of his interviews and he seems very intelligent. Last year he built the team around de Jong and this year he has changed the system again and doing just as good.

[tw]1201598390062256128[/tw]

Haha.
You lot never had a chance.

Wolfe said:

[tw]1201598390062256128[/tw]

Haha.
You lot never had a chance.

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Shh, calma.

KingLeo10 said:

Shh, calma.

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I’d have hoped he’d have said Puyol

Zidane82 said:

I’d have hoped he’d have said Puyol

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He's too young for Puyol.

If he would have played here, people would say that he is ruined by EV and that this is why he plays bad.
"Not a single youngster can improve under EV."
"EV has ruined his confidence."
"EV is bad at man management."
"They probably don't do anything on training grounds under EV, this is why De Ligt is making mistakes."
"He plays alongside Pique and Roberto, of course that a poor kid is left alone and is forced to errors all the time. A stupid EV."
"Valverde effect strikes again."

Well, he plays bad because he is too young, too green, in a new country, not ready etc. And quite likely insanely overhyped.
Even without Valverde.

BBZ8800 said:

If he would have played here, people would say that he is ruined by EV and that this is why he plays bad.
"Not a single youngster can improve under EV."
"EV has ruined his confidence."
"EV is bad at man management."
"They probably don't do anything on training grounds under EV, this is why De Ligt is making mistakes."
"He plays alongside Pique and Roberto, of course that a poor kid is left alone and is forced to errors all the time. A stupid EV."
"Valverde effect strikes again."

Well, he plays bad because he is too young, too green, in a new country, not ready etc. And quite likely insanely overhyped.
Even without Valverde.

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Do you rate any young players?

BADGERBHOY said:

Do you rate any young players?

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Mbappe, Frenkie, Haaland. Felix is nice, but way too young to lead AM right now.

Btw, even De Ligt isn't bad.
The problem is a current era.
Remember, in 80s, 90s and early 00s, clubs were allowed to have only 3 foreigners or non-EU players.
And EU was way smaller back then and consisted only of a few western-european countries.
So, all South American, African, Asian and even majority of European players were foreigners back then (today: Modric, Rakitic, Kovacic, Mandzukic, Oblak, Handanovic, Jovic, Milinkovic Savic, Lewandowski, Piatek etc would all be foreigners in that era).

So:
1. Barca, Real and big teams weren't buying Vinicuis, Rodrigo, Malcom and similar players like today because they had only 3 free non-EU spots in a team and those places were reserved for the best players in the world in their prime, like Romario, Stoichkov etc
That meant that players like Vinicius and similar were first signed by Sevilla, Atletico, Porto and smaller tams and after a few good years in Europe, they were signed by Barca, Real and Milan.
But today, all Europeans are today EU players, and majority of Brasilians and South Americans now have a grandmother from Italy/Spain, and no one is a foreigner anymore.
Also, add a fact that due to an internet era, teams are 10-20 times more richer today and every single club can afford 50M youngster from Brasil.
When you sum it all, all big clubs, plus all EPL clubs are buying youngsters like crazy (a huge demand), and then clubs like Barca or Real have only 2 options:
1. buy a youngster aged 18, 19, 20, 21 for 50M who is nowhere near of being ready for Barca, but that way Barca will "keep" that player. But that player needs 2-3-4 more years of development in a smaller team, which he won't get at Barca.
2. or let him go to Borussia, Red Bull, Porto, Ajax and then, if a player will develop well, Barca will have to pay 100-150M for him in 2-3 years

And Dembele, De Ligt, Malcom, Vinicius are products of these things mentioned above.
Vinicius wouldn't be bought by anyone in 90s in this age. He would be playing in Brasil or for a 10th place French team until he would prove himself. Today, guys like him are signed by RM aged 17 and then we have major flops over and over.

So, to some extent, youngsters were always more likely to fail than succeed even in 90s or early 00s, but today, chances for a youngster flopping at Barca is even higher than in 90s due to us being forced to buy raw, green and overhyped players due to facts mentioned above.

In 90s, De Ligt would have played at Ajax till the age of 22-23, and then a big team would have bought him, when he would have been way more ready and he wouldn't have struggled as much as today.
Today, he is bought by big clubs aged 19, and everyone are expecting big things right away.
De Ligt is mentally strong and he will probably survive these problems, but a lot of other youngsters will be mentally (confidence) dead after failing in a big club, probably: Vinicius, Jovic, Dembele, Malcom etc.

A jump from smaller to big clubs is even tougher than before, since the big clubs are bigger/richer/stronger than in 90s.
Ajax was probably at a level 70/100 in 90s, since they were allowed to keep their players (since big teams weren't as rich as today and didn't have money to buy all of their players) and big teams were allowed to have only 3 foreigners.
Dinamo Zagreb was at a level 50/100 in 90s.
Barca was at a level 100/100.

Today, due to more money and big clubs having better players, Barca is probably at a level 140.
While Ajax and Dinamo Zagreb dropped even lower, due to losing all players at an early age to big clubs (Modric, Kovacic, Mandzukic, Corluka, Lovren, Halilovic, Pjaca, Brozovic, Vrsaljko etc).
So, you see, a jump for De Ligt in 90s would have been: from 70 at Ajax to 100 at Barca.
While today it is: from 50 at Ajax to 140 at Barca.
Also, he would have go to Barca aged 23, and today he is forced to leave aged 19.

So:
90s: age 23: a jump from a level 50 or 70 to a level 100.
2019: age 19: a jump from a level 30-50 to a level 140.

And then of course that we have millions of Dembeles, Malcoms, Minas, Todibos, Juniors and similar.
And people are wondering why is almost every single youngster a failure today.

A crap manager is always likely to affect the way some (if not most) young players develop.

A good portion of young talents would not develop the same way under different managers. This doesn't mean that there are not players who are likely to succeed under all managers.

The problem is some users completely disregard talented players who need proper coaching to develop. For some users, they believe talent shines through the same, under all managers in every circumstances. This is false, or true only for a very very very small portion of young talents.

Saw his girlfriend on red carpet yesterday, guy is just winning at life at 19, insane, good for him.

serghei said:

A crap manager is always likely to affect the way some (if not most) young players develop.

A good portion of young talents would not develop the same way under different managers. This doesn't mean that there are not players who are likely to succeed under all managers.

The problem is some users completely disregard talented players who need proper coaching to develop. For some users, they believe talent shines through the same, under all managers in every circumstances. This is false, or true only for a very very very small portion of young talents.

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Who are those coaches and who are these players?

Coaches, probably only Pep and Klopp.
Then again, how many players have Pep developed in his years at City?
Also, you forget one thing:
WHAT IF:
1. Pep KNOWS what kind of players he needs for his tactics?
2. what if Pep knows exactly WHO are those players (his transfer targets)?
3. and WHAT IF Pep is ALLOWED to buy EXACTLY those players whom he needs and wants for his EXACT style?

Then, when Pep buys a player, he knows what he wants and he will give him chances and develop him, but player will also have skills which Pep needs.

Now, let's move to Barca and Real.
Do you think that EV asked for Dembele, lol?
Or Malcom? Surely not.
Or Griezmann? Probably not. But "it is what it is". If Barto wants him, we will try to fit him somewhere in a team.

I'll give you a few extreme examples:
Imagine if Pep comes back to Barca and is NOT ALLOWED to pick transfer targets.
And he says: I need a new, tall, strong, physical, good on a ball pivot, like Rodri.
But the board says: we won't buy him. We have Arthur. Try to play him as a pivot.
Pep: but that's not a type of a player whom I need.
A board: well, it is what it is.

Pep says: I need a fast, young, mobile winger.
A board: we will buy Griezmann.
Pep: but he is not a type of player whom I want. He is not a winger at all.
A board: well, it is what it is.

Or a funny example:
Imagine you, Sergei, working at City and you want to play Tiki-Taka midfield.
And you have KDB, Bernardo, David Silva, Gundogan to play your desired style.

Then you come to Barca and you tell to a board: I need similar players to those which I had in City.
Yet, a board tells you: We have Rakitic, Gomes, Paulinho and Vidal.
Try to do some magic with them.

And now, your idea is to have Barca DNA midfielders who move a lot, play triangles, press.
And you get 4 guys out of NONE can play that style.
And now, someone will ask you: Serghei, why can't you develop these players? What's wrong, are you a bad coach?

ONE MORE TIME, my examples are somewhat extreme, but you get the point.
You talk constantly about coaches who can develop players:
1. the only 2 guys who can do that are Pep and Klopp
2. and BOTH OF THEM had a few years to achieve that, especially Klopp, who was losing for years.
3. and BOTH of them are allowed to buy exactly players whom they need
4. and Klopp wasn't fired after 2-3 years of meh results, so he was allowed to develop slowly

Now go back to Barca or Real: EV or Zidane will be dead after first trophyless season and if a team won't play well.
Who is more likely to develop a 22 years old youngster?
EV who can sacked in every moment, or Klopp, who is allowed to experiment and buy players for 3 years with no results?

So:
1. how to develop a 20 years old player at Barca when you need results right away and a coach needs to play older, safer bets in order to save his job?
2. how to develop players at Barca/Real when the board is signing random players, not asking a coach (look at Vinicius and Jovic at Real under Zidane, for example. Do you think that he wanted those players? How to develop them now when they are not a kind of players whom he needs?)

BBZ, I am not a believer that the manager has no power at Barcelona. So there's no point in talking about this. If you believe Valverde is told by the board what to do, I disagree so we can spare some lost time and carry on believing what we each believe.

I think the board is lazy, asleep, they found themselves a good alibi manager who's bad but not as bad as to make the fans riot against them, and that's it. Complacency is the word. In the team, with crazy-talented seniors leading the locker-room and in the high staff as well. This board is not ambitious. An ambitious board would've never accepted the disgrace that happened vs Roma and then the 2nd time against Liverpool.

This board is cozy and lazy. To me, they don't fit the profile of a dictatorial board. For that you need arrogance and pride. If we had an arrogant and proud board Valverde would've been gone by now.

And even if by some chance, the board would say to Valverde what to do. Any serious, self-respecting manager would've resigned. By doing that, you attract only the lowest type of managers. The weasel type, who sing the tune you hand them so they can please you. The humble servant personality.

So take your pick. Lazy board and crap manager. Or corrupt, ass-hole board, and coward weasel manager. Any way, and any how, Valverde is terrible no matter what logic you choose to apply.

serghei said:

And even if by some chance, the board would say to Valverde what to do. Any serious, self-respecting manager would've resigned. By doing that, you attract only the lowest type of managers. The weasel type, who sing the tune you hand them so they can please you. The humble servant personality.

So take your pick. Lazy board and crap manager. Or corrupt, ass-hole board, and coward weasel manager. Any way, and any how, Valverde is terrible no matter what logic you choose to apply.

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The 2nd.