Ernesto Valverde - V1

George_Costanza

George_Costanza

Active member
Havesaks said:
Coached by Roura, created by Pep. In Tito(Roura) and Tata years, we just played with a team created by Pep where the system already was drilled into our players, and the players were basically the same. We didnt evovle at all, and all tho it was enough to win domestically, we did pay the price vs big teams. So im basically saying, im fine how tito/roura did it, but the groundwork was done by pep, and they really didnt do anything special.

It depends.Tito/Roura were successful enough, but lets say Valverde only won league first year, i would still consider him more successful and impressive ( to Tito/rouras double) because of the circumstances he had to operate under.
Tito/roura never got the chance to prove themselves (all though they kinda did vs big teams and failed miserably changing tactics), but it was the easy but still right choice to continue Peps work.

What Valverde has accomplished is far beyond that. Our second best player and vital for our formation and tactics, backstabbed the club after pre-season. Valverde needed therefore to completely change his tactics. And introduced 4-4-2 distancing us from both ATM and Real and finally winning la liga and Copa del rey. We also had a lot of bad media talk in that first half year, where his personality did great work to not let it affect the team. What he did accomplish in his first year is so underrated, its crazy, just because of a bad levante-game and especially roma-game. He did an amazing job. Now in his second year, he again is top of the leauge and cdr finale - found a way to make the team competitive with 4-3-3 and a lot of old players. This squad was and is WC and terms of talent but in terms of composition (how well they work togehter) its actually pretty bad, the players dont fit/fitted each other that well (age, type, etc.) and Valverde has found a system/systems to make our WC player work as a team and is in the making of winning us the double/treble.

I dont really have a specific general creteria(s). It always depends on the circumstances.
Click to expand...

"I would still consider him more successful and impressive ( to Tito/rouras double) because of the circumstances he had to operate under"

What circumstances you are talking about? Losing Neymar? What did Neymar do when Real won the double a season before? We lost Neymar but gained Dembele and Coutinho. Didn't work in the first season due to Valverde's lack of trust in Dembele (besides his injury) and playing Coutinho out of position. If I would say, the team was much stronger than the season before.

You spoke of a system, I'm still and I think I speak for most of us don't know what system are we playing. We really don't have a specific system. The only sure system I know of is this team built around Messi and has a more defensive approach.

Also, you didn't answer my question regarding what's your criteria for a successful manager and leader of Barcelona?

I spoke about this many times before so I don't want to sound like the Copypasta guy. Barca job not suitable for everyone, it demands a high degree of performance and should have a rigorous performance evaluation system just like any top fortune 500 firms. After all, Valverde is getting paid in millions. If the manager does not meet the acceptable levels of performance and goals, he should be given a warning and asked for improvements. If he persists and didn't improve, he should be fired. Winning trophies is just one part of what makes the manager doing "damn good job". First, that's the minimum requirements for any Barca manager. We won 7 Liga titles out of 10 the past decade, so what EV did wasn't exceptional by any means. You have to have a clear identity and style of play. No team in the world has a more iconic style of play than Barcelona, so when a manager comes and tweak that style, we are all fine with it, it's part of the evolution. But what EV did is transform Barca style into something we don't know, maybe it's defensive, or maybe call it Mourinho style, whatever you want to call it, it's not Barcelona, it's ugly and boring.

lack of game tactics, overly reliance on Messi, overplaying underperformers, man-management, treatment of youngsters like Malcom and La Masia...etc. The list goes on and on. A high degree of performance at Barcelona require excellence in all those important aspects, not just one aspect.

So when you say "damn good job" I have no idea what's a good job means or did you base it on results alone which can easily be credited to Messi.
 
H

Havesaks

Senior Member
George_Costanza said:
"I would still consider him more successful and impressive ( to Tito/rouras double) because of the circumstances he had to operate under"

What circumstances you are talking about? Losing Neymar? What did Neymar do when Real won the double a season before? We lost Neymar but gained Dembele and Coutinho. Didn't work in the first season due to Valverde's lack of trust in Dembele (besides his injury) and playing Coutinho out of position. If I would say, the team was much stronger than the season before.

You spoke of a system, I'm still and I think I speak for most of us don't know what system are we playing. We really don't have a specific system. The only sure system I know of is this team built around Messi and has a more defensive approach.

Also, you didn't answer my question regarding what's your criteria for a successful manager and leader of Barcelona?

I spoke about this many times before so I don't want to sound like the Copypasta guy. Barca job not suitable for everyone, it demands a high degree of performance and should have a rigorous performance evaluation system just like any top fortune 500 firms. After all, Valverde is getting paid in millions. If the manager does not meet the acceptable levels of performance and goals, he should be given a warning and asked for improvements. If he persists and didn't improve, he should be fired. Winning trophies is just one part of what makes the manager doing "damn good job". First, that's the minimum requirements for any Barca manager. We won 7 Liga titles out of 10 the past decade, so what EV did wasn't exceptional by any means. You have to have a clear identity and style of play. No team in the world has a more iconic style of play than Barcelona, so when a manager comes and tweak that style, we are all fine with it, it's part of the evolution. But what EV did is transform Barca style into something we don't know, maybe it's defensive, or maybe call it Mourinho style, whatever you want to call it, it's not Barcelona, it's ugly and boring.

lack of game tactics, overly reliance on Messi, overplaying underperformers, man-management, treatment of youngsters like Malcom and La Masia...etc. The list goes on and on. A high degree of performance at Barcelona require excellence in all those important aspects, not just one aspect.

So when you say "damn good job" I have no idea what's a good job means or did you base it on results alone which can easily be credited to Messi.
Click to expand...

I will answer this later today or tmrw.Sorry!
 
henias

henias

New member
Horatio said:
Last nights girl had fake tits!

I blame Valverde.
Click to expand...

Killer murdered only two men.

He is not to be blamed for the murders of million others.

Hence, the murder of two men is trivial, and should be defended as a good righteous man.

Men must be responsible for all murders before he should be convicted.

Great reasoning you have there.

This also reminds me of Madrid fans trying to alleviate Ramos being a dirty cunt by being sarcastic: "Ramos should be blamed for everything!" Just because he is not responsible for some things makes him a much better person. EV fans are equally disgusting lol.

And talk about misrepresenting arguments, you are trying to make it seem like Valverde's flaws are nothing of concern and his crtitics are nothing but haters.

The results that kept flowing has somehow nothing to do with the massive improvement in squad depth, but when players failed to perform due to fatigue, it is their fault for not putting in any effort.

Overplaying senior players, allowing team to play on autopilot attacking wise, depending on Messi to pull strings, is no concern and has no repurcussions. But hey, let's just ignore that because "results".

EV has already switched from 442 to 433, that's a massive achievement! Cut him some slack.

A white knight like you prolly resort to ordering prostitutes, no need to tell the whole world.
 
BarçaBarça

BarçaBarça

New member
George_Costanza said:
"I would still consider him more successful and impressive ( to Tito/rouras double) because of the circumstances he had to operate under"

What circumstances you are talking about? Losing Neymar? What did Neymar do when Real won the double a season before? We lost Neymar but gained Dembele and Coutinho. Didn't work in the first season due to Valverde's lack of trust in Dembele (besides his injury) and playing Coutinho out of position. If I would say, the team was much stronger than the season before.

You spoke of a system, I'm still and I think I speak for most of us don't know what system are we playing. We really don't have a specific system. The only sure system I know of is this team built around Messi and has a more defensive approach.

Also, you didn't answer my question regarding what's your criteria for a successful manager and leader of Barcelona?

I spoke about this many times before so I don't want to sound like the Copypasta guy. Barca job not suitable for everyone, it demands a high degree of performance and should have a rigorous performance evaluation system just like any top fortune 500 firms. After all, Valverde is getting paid in millions. If the manager does not meet the acceptable levels of performance and goals, he should be given a warning and asked for improvements. If he persists and didn't improve, he should be fired. Winning trophies is just one part of what makes the manager doing "damn good job". First, that's the minimum requirements for any Barca manager. We won 7 Liga titles out of 10 the past decade, so what EV did wasn't exceptional by any means. You have to have a clear identity and style of play. No team in the world has a more iconic style of play than Barcelona, so when a manager comes and tweak that style, we are all fine with it, it's part of the evolution. But what EV did is transform Barca style into something we don't know, maybe it's defensive, or maybe call it Mourinho style, whatever you want to call it, it's not Barcelona, it's ugly and boring.

lack of game tactics, overly reliance on Messi, overplaying underperformers, man-management, treatment of youngsters like Malcom and La Masia...etc. The list goes on and on. A high degree of performance at Barcelona require excellence in all those important aspects, not just one aspect.

So when you say "damn good job" I have no idea what's a good job means or did you base it on results alone which can easily be credited to Messi.
Click to expand...

Simple question: Wouldn't it be next level of stupid not to rely on Messi when he is the most reliable player in history and delivers every f****** game?
What can't Messi do? He can't defend. Give him a system that defends well and he wins you the game. That's Valverdes approach in season 1, and guess what - it works.
To be honest, if Real hadn't won CL the last 2 years more would praise our dominance in the league, but in my oppinion real winning CL does not make Valverde a worse coach, even though majority thinks so.

With regards to Neymar and Dembele/Coutinho - just lol. You honestly believe it is "better" to have an injured and childish 1st season Dembele and 1/2 season Coutinho than Neymar? That is delusional. You just throw oversimplifications around like Valverde "playing Coutinho out of position" - oh yeah? Then what is his best position, if it is so obvious? Truth is, it is very hard to fit him into this team without hurting Messis role, and pretty much no one wants to limit Messi for a new guy. And Dembele needed more trust the first season nothing else? Well we went all but 1 game undefeated, could have been a historic team, that was worth fighting for as well, and don't act like Dembele is just an easy player to fit in - he clearly needed to be disciplined and follow the demands of a topteam and Valverde has successfully taught him that.

Neymars departure and all the ragnarok in the media that followed devastated the team, and media/experts/fansgroups predicted Real dominance for years. But Valverde made miracles and secured a domestic double. No one should feel ashamed for praising how big an accomplishment that was.
 
George_Costanza

George_Costanza

Active member
BarçaBarça said:
Simple question: Wouldn't it be next level of stupid not to rely on Messi when he is the most reliable player in history and delivers every f****** game?
What can't Messi do? He can't defend. Give him a system that defends well and he wins you the game. That's Valverdes approach in season 1, and guess what - it works.
To be honest, if Real hadn't won CL the last 2 years more would praise our dominance in the league, but in my oppinion real winning CL does not make Valverde a worse coach, even though majority thinks so.

With regards to Neymar and Dembele/Coutinho - just lol. You honestly believe it is "better" to have an injured and childish 1st season Dembele and 1/2 season Coutinho than Neymar? That is delusional. You just throw oversimplifications around like Valverde "playing Coutinho out of position" - oh yeah? Then what is his best position, if it is so obvious? Truth is, it is very hard to fit him into this team without hurting Messis role, and pretty much no one wants to limit Messi for a new guy. And Dembele needed more trust the first season nothing else? Well we went all but 1 game undefeated, could have been a historic team, that was worth fighting for as well, and don't act like Dembele is just an easy player to fit in - he clearly needed to be disciplined and follow the demands of a topteam and Valverde has successfully taught him that.

Neymars departure and all the ragnarok in the media that followed devastated the team, and media/experts/fansgroups predicted Real dominance for years. But Valverde made miracles and secured a domestic double. No one should feel ashamed for praising how big an accomplishment that was.
Click to expand...

Oversimplification is when you think Messi can do everything by himself, which is of course not true at all hence our continuous exit from UCL. The problem is when you rely on a single player to win you games is that player might get injured, might have a bad day, might crack under pressure etc. then what the fuck we suppose to do? And how what you said is supposed to be in defense of Valverde? What are you saying actually is Valverde impotent. Messi supposes to be part of the team, not the team itself.

Regarding Valverde discipline mastering practice, why this practice is only applicable to new young players? When players like Rakitic or Saurez or Busquets consistently underperformed where are his reward and punishment approach? Why don't you talk about his treatment of Malcom? Does Malcom need discipline too? If yes, for what exactly?

I will rephrase your last paragraph.
"Neymars departure and all the ragnarok in the media that followed devastated the team, and media/experts/fansgroups predicted Real dominance for years. But MESSI made miracles and secured a domestic double. No one should feel ashamed for praising how big an accomplishment that was."

This is what you justified in your first paragraph then you gave credit to Valverde at the end! We relied on Messi bro, that what you said, credit where credit is due lol Thank you!
 
P

PhilS

Active member
Valverde has gotten lots of stick for switching to 4-4-2 with Dembele out. I mean, you can see that this switch was insane, Betis practically shut out Barca.

So, enough of the 4-4-2. For Espanol, Dembele is out, and quite possibly Suarez is out. So, time for both Coutinho and Malcom?

No. Coutinho and Malcom have shown us they need to sit a lot. It's 4-5 plus the Messi wild card time. We need Rakitic, Busquets, Vidal, Arthur and Alena on the field to start the next game. These are the best players, and the best offensive players, available.
 
BarçaBarça

BarçaBarça

New member
George_Costanza said:
Oversimplification is when you think Messi can do everything by himself, which is of course not true at all hence our continuous exit from UCL. The problem is when you rely on a single player to win you games is that player might get injured, might have a bad day, might crack under pressure etc. then what the fuck we suppose to do? And how what you said is supposed to be in defense of Valverde? What are you saying actually is Valverde impotent. Messi supposes to be part of the team, not the team itself.

Regarding Valverde discipline mastering practice, why this practice is only applicable to new young players? When players like Rakitic or Saurez or Busquets consistently underperformed where are his reward and punishment approach? Why don't you talk about his treatment of Malcom? Does Malcom need discipline too? If yes, for what exactly?

I will rephrase your last paragraph.
"Neymars departure and all the ragnarok in the media that followed devastated the team, and media/experts/fansgroups predicted Real dominance for years. But MESSI made miracles and secured a domestic double. No one should feel ashamed for praising how big an accomplishment that was."

This is what you justified in your first paragraph then you gave credit to Valverde at the end! We relied on Messi bro, that what you said, credit where credit is due lol Thank you!
Click to expand...

You are right that our plan shouldn't be to leave all up to Messi, but we don't right now. We secure a decent defence and help get the ball to the final third. Some seasons Messi drifted all the way to DM/6 position, which should be avoided, imo. He can take the wing/10-roaming-position further up to increase chances of assist/goals from him.

Yes, I would like both Busquets and Rakitic to be benched more, both of them. Rakitic because he has been overplayed for every season here, and this season even on the back of a world cup where he brought his team to the final (if he played at Madrid he'd be B'dor). Busquets because he has been too bad and with Rakitic as DM we could play either Coutinho more in midfield or get Alena or Vidal minutes. I think Raktic and Busquets has been rotated too little, but it is funny that most critique has been of Rakitic and not Busquets. Therefore I also welcomed and applauded the signing of De Jong - it is perfect because he can rest both Busquets and Raktic and thereby get enough minutes, maybe even kick Busquets out of the team, or maybe Rakitic will be sold.

On Malcom: Yes, he has played little, but the integration of Coutinho has been more important, imo, and therefore it is fine that he loses minutes to him. If Coutinho suddenly clicks he will be worth 5 Malcoms to this team. Valverde didn't like the signing of Malcom and that is bad luck, because he has been decisive whenever he got the chance, unlike Coutinho. I would say it is bad luck for him, like Solari was to Isco - he is a good player, but the coach doesn't like him.

Suarez is a special case because he plays like shit in large periods of time and all of a sudden he becomes world class and can help win CL. It is a little tricky to experiment with not playing him and pray that he delivers in the big games, but I think that is what we will see next season, so let's hope he has that in him. True competition other than the joke Boateng would be great as well, Valverde doesn't have many choices there, unless the tactic should be switched every other week.

If Messi should get all the credit, and the team could play with no coach at all, let's see who the GOAT attributes some praise to, when he analyse the situation:
[tw]1107396926499155969[/tw]

Clearly the best player in history don't think Valverde is retarded, but I guess his words only count, when they suits ones own perspective...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Home of Barca Fans

Top