Yeah, our biggest prblem today was the lack of midfield ability in getting the ball forward. Rakitic was shockingly poor (like last week minus defending). Vidal tackles well, but is utterly headless.
Just look at Frenkie (and Arthur, but hes too small for our coach or whatever) - some people dont get why he cost 86ME, because they just look at highlight passes, distance shots and so on. But his small touches on the ball that relieve pressure are the sign of greatness. Arthur showed some of the same. Rakitic never had that. I blame todays result 100% on the inept midfield.
Just look at Frenkie (and Arthur, but hes too small for our coach or whatever) - some people dont get why he cost 86ME, because they just look at highlight passes, distance shots and so on. But his small touches on the ball that relieve pressure are the sign of greatness. Arthur showed some of the same. Rakitic never had that. I blame todays result 100% on the inept midfield.
God Serena
New member
Sacking Valverde is a good first step. I don't think anyone is denying that we need to replace many members of our squad. One of the biggest fears I've seen is that the senior players will back Valverde as remaining manager just because they like having it easy.
Suarez, Rakitic, Pique, Busquets, Alba, these are all players we could replace quite easily, who are somehow unshakable in their status as starters. This is something that can never happen under Valverde.
Okay, guys like Frenkie, Alena, Puig will probably be the choir boys you so despise, but at the same time... Iniesta, Xavi, Messi are also in that mold, and whether you would take Milner into a fight over Iniesta or not doesn't matter, I would take Iniesta in any team and I can't think of a single top flight manager who would disagree. The issue is we need to have balance. A midfield doesn't need three defensively minded players, it needs just one. Two technical players who can help the attack and defend when needed, one to mop up the trash. Balance. Put Riqui next to Arthur and have Vidal anchor them. Put Alena next to Frenkie and let Busquets back them up. But the midfield we put out was essentially just 5 CBs. I don't know how it was expected for us to win that.
Bringing in Frenkie and giving more time to Alena and Puig and clearing out the weak and/or complacent members of the old guard is important for sure, but removing the man propping them up is the most important first step.
Cule4life
The Culest
Again everyone knows EV is not the only problem. Stop peddling imaginary agendas. But he's for sure the biggest problem.
Do you think a decent manager would put up with the shit Suarez pulls day in day out? Would a decent manager play Roberto vs Liverpool again after his disasterclass in the 1st leg?
You don't get readymade leaders. You need to develop and nurture them.
How can you expect senior complacent players who are assured of their spot (and even of not being subbed) to develop into strong leaders with a winning mentality?
How can you expect young players to become leaders when the manager doesn't know how to develop them or have the balls to make them starters over the seniors?
You are grasping at straws looking for any excuse to absolve Valverde of even a tiny bit of blame.
Yes a new manager won't solve everything. We also need to improve our recruitment, trainings and be more proactive than reactive in instituting player/manager/playing philosophy changes. But a new manager with a vision would be a crucial first step to achieve all those.
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Obiaseti
New member
Time and again we go all in when it comes to signing good players, I wish our board showed the same ambition with managerial recruitments. If missing out on DeLigt means getting a good manager I'd take that at this point. That being said I am fully aware that it is not an easy task and there aren't many top managers available, but we should at least try to get someone with fresh ideas. For me, the biggest problem is not losing, but the lack of even an attempt at trying to play attractive coherent football. It just seems extremely cynical and shortsighted.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
My reply about Milner and a fight was about:
In moments like this on Anfield, or in Rome, or against Atletico, you have (imo) two ways to win and to kill the pressure:
1. either to have the best midfield ever, like Xavi-Iniesta-Busi, who will Tiki-Taka us out of a pressure with insane technique
2. or to have more leaders or guys who won't be mentally and physically bullied, like Puyol, Vidal and similar. But Vidal alone was not enough because half of a team was scared and pissing their pants and true, 90% of a team weren't able to string 2 passes in a row
Regarding our Xavi-Iniesta-Busi midfield:
1. we will never be able to recreate it
2. also, Messi will be gone in 2-3 years and WITHOUT Messi, we will need a different midfield than a midfield who works with Messi
Today, all you need is to keep the ball, and pass the ball to Messi and he will usually do something.
Without Messi, we will lose 30-50 goals per season (like RM without CR7) and 3-4 players will need to compensate that
Imagine losing Messi and his 50 goals, Suarez and his 30 goals and suddenly having: Dembele with 15 goals, Malcom or Coutinho with 15 goals and a CF with 20 goals.
That is a drop from 90 goals today (Messi, Suarez, Dembele) to 50 goals per season.
In that post-Messi world, we will not survive if our all midfielders will be controllers, guys who keep the ball and similar.
New gen of midfielders after Messi will need to be closer to Alena (at least one of them, a CM who will score 10+ goals per season).
So you see, we can sack EV, but longterm:
1. we need younger players
2. more hunger
3. mental strength
4. midfielders with different skills than today, to compensate for Messi's retirement
5. 3 lethal attackers who will compensate for Messi's retirement
6. 2-3 leaders on a field
Its funny how we hire these random coaches, who dont even have the Barcelona/Cruyff philosophy (to excuse hiring a no name coach). I could understand if we hired someone who has different ideas if he had the resume for it. But Tata, Lucho, Valverde? Would take Mourinho all day long if we want to go that route.
Edit (to BBZ): We just need a midfield with talent to relieve pressure, not the best midfield ever. Actual wingers would help a lot as well. Our problem is that our midfield has zero quality on the ball and our forwards are slow as fuck. Thats a deadly combination. Replacing Coutinho (and maybe Suarez) for 2 fast forwards would help a lot. An injury free Dembele as well.
Edit (to BBZ): We just need a midfield with talent to relieve pressure, not the best midfield ever. Actual wingers would help a lot as well. Our problem is that our midfield has zero quality on the ball and our forwards are slow as fuck. Thats a deadly combination. Replacing Coutinho (and maybe Suarez) for 2 fast forwards would help a lot. An injury free Dembele as well.
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God Serena
New member
Solid point, but I think in a post Messi era, we should be asking much more from our forwards. Despite the net loss of goals from Suarez, they're very rarely impactful. His CL goal scoring record is a testament to this. Of our goal scorers in this and last season, only Messi has been crucial. Better wingers and a new striker should solve that issue. We would need all 3 to chip in with goals, though. Also, having midfielders who could supply them with balls will be necessary as well. The typical workhorses aren't going to be the types who can do that. Having a midfielder like Alena who is willing to make runs and get into scoring positions (Who also tracks back and defends, very few people acknowledge he does this despite him hustling to defend more than even Rakitic) will also help us transition into a post Messi era, but guys like Frenkie and Arthur lining up next to him will ensure that our attackers have the supply. The issue with a Messi led team is we can often get away with not having any of the supply from midfield because Messi somehow is able to give us the supply and the goals at the same time to the point that weak managers can often neglect that in the rest of the team, and just hope Messi does it. That's why the team is so toothless when Messi isn't in GOAT form.
putogusiluz8
The Pale One
I'm in so much pain I can't even process what happened today. I have nothing to say that makes any sense or can appease anything. Just gonna let it be and stay away from football for a little while.
Bartomeu has to be bold and get rid of some of the senior players. Madrid are one year ahead in their rebuild and are poised to have a big spend this summer. complacency can't continue. he has made good transfers overall recently but this is a test of his presidency.
edit: it goes without saying valverdes time has come to an end.
edit: it goes without saying valverdes time has come to an end.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Ok. we are debating on a paper, but in reality something is wrong.
2014: Atletico: You had 3 best midfielders ever: Xavi 34, Iniesta 30, Busi 26. Plus Messi 27 (on his prime and faster than today), Neymar 22.
You had 3 Barca DNA midfielders and 2 true wingers.
We couldn't do shit and we couldn't create any chances.
We still lost on counters, headers and they were mentally stronger than us.
2016: Atletico: Iniesta 32, Busi 28, Rakitic 28, Messi 29, Neymar 24, Suarez 29.
You again have 2 midfielders to avoid the pressure, 2 true wingers and Suarez.
Again we couldn't do anything, and our only goals scored were against 10 men in a first leg.
In 135 minutes in 11 vs 11, we were outplayed with 0:3 score.
In La liga we won like 5 times in a row against them.
In a CL, we were eaten alive and bullied on all areas.
That happens all the time in a CL to our team.
So, I want to say, people often say: we need to go back to Xavi-Iniesta ways.
Well, we played Xavi-Iniesta-Busi-Messi in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 and won 1 out of 4 CLs.
And we played Messi-Iniesta-Busi in 2012, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. We won 1 out of 7.
So, ok, 3 Dms is not the way to go.
But Iniesta-Busi-Messi trio won 1 CL in the last 7 years also. That trio played in all horrible defeats: Roma 0:3, Juve 0:3, Psg 0:4, Atletico 0:2, Atletico 0:1, Bayern 0:4 etc.
Till yesterday, I thought that we were missing only some muscles and defending.
But even that is not the answer, it seems.
I guess that we will need to try to improve in all areas:
1. technique
2. midfield
3. defense
4. distance covered
5. some physicality
6. leadership ability in 2-3 players
7. players with a fighting spirit for a CL
8. mental strength
9. young blood
10. hunger and motivation
1. again, sacking EV is easy
2. but someone will need to sack a lot of current oldies.
Also, some panic buys and bad transfers will need to go also.
3. and new players will need to be different/better than some current guys. Not only in technique, but in pace, stamina, distance covered and in mental skills (hunger, mental strength, IQ, some fighting spirit etc)
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