Ernesto Valverde - V1

maldhowayanr said:

I believe that we cannot and should not play 433 with Messi in the team. However, I do not think we should play 4231 (best formation for Messi) with Busquets in the team either.

Strange squad indeed. One of them must leave.

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Why Messi is the problem? Why not move Suarez to the left as he is right-footed and keep Messi in the middle like in 2011.

----------------------Busquets-------
Arthur/Raki/Vidal-----------------Coutinho/Alena
Malcom/Dembele----Messi-----Suarez/Dembele/Coutinho

George_Costanza said:

Why Messi is the problem? Why not move Suarez to the left as he is right-footed and keep Messi in the middle like in 2011.

----------------------Busquets-------
Arthur/Raki/Vidal-----------------Coutinho/Alena
Malcom/Dembele----Messi-----Suarez/Dembele/Coutinho

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Messi is 2nd striker, 2nd striker needs a no9 which he himself stressed on it. He is at his best when he plays with another striker in front of him. and Suarez doesn't have the agility to make it work anyway. The only striker that I can see moving to left side and fit well with Messi is Mbappe, and may be Malcom is the opposite side too

Missed the game at time, had to download it and watch it.
One of the rare advantages of that is that you can make your own reply and focus on some play.
I wasn't sure which thread this one should be but will put it here



Generally I am not big fan of taking a photo in middle of the game and talk about the midfield etc, but couldn't resist it with this one.
this is the 2nd goal we conceded, as you can see there is 6 Betis players in penalty area and only our 4 defenders there. Our 3 midfielders are at the right side of the photo, move backward a little and all 3 were in same situation.

Defense is a team effort, people keep questioning EV balanced system and its effectiveness in defense this season -and rightfully so- but the truth is we don't have a balanced team in defense.
Busquets right now isn't a DM, I've been saying that since last season that he is now shit at the defensive duties as he has lost quickness and stamina. He is great on ball and good one we are pressed, this is one of the reasons we look better against tougher teams, because Busquets (whom I believed to the most important player in our system since 2010) has the game on his strength against those team, once teams play on spacing he is useless in defense.
Last season Rakitic playing second DM has covered for Busquets a lot, he was more involved in covering the team in penalty area or in front of it than Busquets during defense.
Now we are playing with Rakitic and Arthur as CM, which is great against tougher opponents who press us but not against counter attacking team.

The problem doesn't stop in midfield, the wings are also a bit of a problem.
Since Messi moved as SS things got chaotic with front line, we are playing with only 1 winger, I remember after Super Cup loss against RM I wondered why we are playing with a winger on left side not right side after Neymar has left. Neymar was worth making those adjustment but he wasn't there anymore.
And in fact EV done that during the season, he made Iniesta cover the left side with Alba but Iniesta kept himself as CM more or less, and this actually unleashed Alba and allowed us to support Roberto on right side, and Roberto had very good year as RB finally.
This year we are for some reason back to 433 with only 1 winger, but this time it is Coutinho who showed what many feared that he isn't a midfielder. Oj Coutinho is great player and just like Neymar he is worth making tactical sacrifice for him.
But this has 2 effects on our team:
1-Roberto can't be starting RB against half decent team when no one is supporting him. I made it clear that I don't rate Semedo highly, but in such situations I have no problem with him being starter over Roberto, even if we are basically sacrificing attack from the whole right side.
2-When Coutinho is out, our winger has no reason to play on the left. Time to stop pretending that Messi is occupying the right side. Alba is more capable to occupy flank alone than anyone in our right side

Needless to say, our defense with Pique is just shitshow.

This team is just very challenging for any coach tactically, and has so many holes.
Last season EV has betrayed Barca philosophy for balance in order to cover those holes, and he other than Roma game he actually succeeded. This year EV is actually even betraying his own ideas and failing to come up with balance, while still able to set up good against tougher teams, he fails miserably against counter attacking ones and it is just matter of time when even strong opponents will just do the same.

I liked the idea of using Suarez as an LWF with Alba covering the gap as a winger on the left side and pushing Messi into the F9 role and having an RW on the right side if Coutinho isn't available. that is much better than dealing with just shoving Malcom/Dembele out on the left to replace Coutinho and still leaving Messi out in that false RW role and leaving a giant gap on the right side which doesn't have the same quality as the left.

khaled_a_d said:

Messi is 2nd striker, 2nd striker needs a no9 which he himself stressed on it. He is at his best when he plays with another striker in front of him. and Suarez doesn't have the agility to make it work anyway. The only striker that I can see moving to left side and fit well with Messi is Mbappe, and may be Malcom is the opposite side too

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Messi as false 9 better than any striker in the world. He scored most goals in a calendar year 79 goals in 2012 playing that role. Messi forced CF players like Ibra, Villa, and Eto'o to play either left or right while he is in the middle.

Messi never before played in a position overlapping another striker or like you said "he is best when he plays with another striker ahead of him", this is new for me! Last season when Barca played Juve, EV shifted Messi to the middle becuase of Suarez's injury and it worked, Barca thrashed Juve 3-0. But even after Suarez's return, Valverde didn’t shift Messi back towards the right wing. Instead, Suarez was deployed in the left-wing role. He took up his position as a floating left-winger who drifted into central zones, much like Thierry Henry and Villa used to do in that role for Barcelona under Guardiola.

It's for Suarez to work harder in training to fully adopt the floating left-winger role. No need for Messi to change as he is at his best when the ball is fed to him from midfield when he is in the middle, the opposing defense will either push up to man-mark him, which creates space in behind for the wide forwards to attack or Messi to blaze into the box to simply shoot or has the options of providing diagonal through balls to fullbacks and wingers.

George_Costanza said:

Messi as false 9 better than any striker in the world. He scored most goals in a calendar year 79 goals in 2012 playing that role. Messi forced CF players like Ibra, Villa, and Eto'o to play either left or right while he is in the middle.

Messi never before played in a position overlapping another striker or like you said "he is best when he plays with another striker ahead of him", this is new for me! Last season when Barca played Juve, EV shifted Messi to the middle becuase of Suarez's injury and it worked, Barca thrashed Juve 3-0. But even after Suarez's return, Valverde didn’t shift Messi back towards the right wing. Instead, Suarez was deployed in the left-wing role. He took up his position as a floating left-winger who drifted into central zones, much like Thierry Henry and Villa used to do in that role for Barcelona under Guardiola.

It's for Suarez to work harder in training to fully adopt the floating left-winger role. No need for Messi to change as he is at his best when the ball is fed to him from midfield when he is in the middle, the opposing defense will either push up to man-mark him, which creates space in behind for the wide forwards to attack or Messi to blaze into the box to simply shoot or has the options of providing diagonal through balls to fullbacks and wingers.

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I am not sure why you bring 2012, Messi isn't the same player he was in 2012, he isn't even the same player he was in 2015.
And football and teams evolve, false 9 is a thing of the past now.
Messi himself made it clear he need a striker in front of him and this is why he loves playing with Suarez, this was in interview he has done before the world cup and generally he says it a lot. If this is new to you then you should know it now. Though it is a bit weird as I remember you suggesting we should go after Icardi

There is a reason why Suarez is the player who assisted Messi the most ever in Liga, and vice versa. Current Messi needs those passes that Suarez gives him to score, he needs those dummies and taking defenders to him etc.
On paper Suarez started many games last year as LW, but he wasn't playing there at all in reality. he mostly played in front of Messi when we had the ball, and shifted little on the left when we lose it (which is good move in order to make the RB hesitate to go forward), and this had its effect on Suarez and he played the worst football in Barca jersey before we shifted back to 442 and he started playing well again.

And I am not dismissing the idea that a different striker can do it, and probably that was the idea behind targeting Griezmann (though we will never know for sure) and why I think someone like Mpabbe would be perfect but he isn't coming. I really don't see other striker with such suitable profile

khaled_a_d said:

I am not sure why you bring 2012, Messi isn't the same player he was in 2012, he isn't even the same player he was in 2015.
And football and teams evolve, false 9 is a thing of the past now.
Messi himself made it clear he need a striker in front of him and this is why he loves playing with Suarez, this was in interview he has done before the world cup and generally he says it a lot. If this is new to you then you should know it now. Though it is a bit weird as I remember you suggesting we should go after Icardi

There is a reason why Suarez is the player who assisted Messi the most ever in Liga, and vice versa. Current Messi needs those passes that Suarez gives him to score, he needs those dummies and taking defenders to him etc.
On paper Suarez started many games last year as LW, but he wasn't playing there at all in reality. he mostly played in front of Messi when we had the ball, and shifted little on the left when we lose it (which is good move in order to make the RB hesitate to go forward), and this had its effect on Suarez and he played the worst football in Barca jersey before we shifted back to 442 and he started playing well again.

And I am not dismissing the idea that a different striker can do it, and probably that was the idea behind targeting Griezmann (though we will never know for sure) and why I think someone like Mpabbe would be perfect but he isn't coming. I really don't see other striker with such suitable profile

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I brought 2012 example and 2017 too. Also I said it won't be easy for Suarez but he has to work hard in training to adapt the role. Shifting Messi to RW to accomdate Suarez is out of the question and it won't work. Also we only won UCL playing the 4-3-3. 4-2-2 is an outdated system that's doesnt suit the players we have.

This is the position of each player vs. Juve

So sick of these passing triangles. You dont qun games by passing or Spain would not have been knocked our by Russia...

George_Costanza said:

I brought 2012 example and 2017 too. Also I said it won't be easy for Suarez but he has to work hard in training to adapt the role. Shifting Messi to RW to accomdate Suarez is out of the question and it won't work. Also we only won UCL playing the 4-3-3. 4-2-2 is an outdated system that's doesnt suit the players we have.

This is the position of each player vs. Juve

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No one said Messi should play as RW, everyone knows he isn't RW anymore at the age of 31.
And Suarez is also not a LW , and would never be one at the age of 32.Being used as a guy who can shift to the left when we don't have the ball (like the photo you brought) where he looked terrible there doesn't support the argument that he can be LW.
And Coutinho right now plays the LW, he was LW for Liverpool up until last season when he was moved to AM to accommodate Salah, and I don't think it is coincidence their midfield improved after he left, and in fact that played a part in their defensive improvement in 2nd half of the season (and with addition of VVD obviously)
This is [MENTION=20666]maldhowayanr[/MENTION] point which I totally agree with, the squad right now is in weird position with no clear solution,Their will be always real sacrifice to be made in any formation.

I don't think we are winning he CL with this squad regardless the formation or even the coach. Sadly Busquets & Pique alone make it out of reach IMHO.

khaled_a_d said:

No one said Messi should play as RW, everyone knows he isn't RW anymore at the age of 31.
And Suarez is also not a LW , and would never be one at the age of 32.Being used as a guy who can shift to the left when we don't have the ball (like the photo you brought) where he looked terrible there doesn't support the argument that he can be LW.
And Coutinho right now plays the LW, he was LW for Liverpool up until last season when he was moved to AM to accommodate Salah, and I don't think it is coincidence their midfield improved after he left, and in fact that played a part in their defensive improvement in 2nd half of the season (and with addition of VVD obviously)
This is [MENTION=20666]maldhowayanr[/MENTION] point which I totally agree with, the squad right now is in weird position with no clear solution,Their will be always real sacrifice to be made in any formation.

I don't think we are winning he CL with this squad regardless the formation or even the coach. Sadly Busquets & Pique alone make it out of reach IMHO.

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Even if the players are old, EV himself doesnt make it any better by overplaying them and the lack of ideas limits the squad alot.

There is no way on earth 4-3-3 can function with our current squad. We should move away from that idea ASAP! We are conceding goals like crazy and this needs to stop! We should go back to 4-4-2 or try 4-2-3-1 but 4-3-3 is something impossible right now! To be fair that 4-4-2 can easily be transformed to 4-2-3-1 and you can't do that with 4-3-3 formation.

Some of you are blind if you believe 4-3-3 is the way to go! If conceding 18 times in 12 games is not enough for you than I honestly don't know what is?! I don't know where to start with 4-3-3 problems but let's emphasize some major problems in that formation:

- We don't have a RW in 4-3-3 since Messi is basically playing free-role so it's like playing asymmetrical 4-3-1-2 system where right side is empty!
- Coutinho is not a classical left winger he is more AM/LM so he can not perform well in that position.
- Malcom is better on the right side while he can ONLY play on the left in 4-3-3 formation since Messi is playing on the right (although he isn't).
- Dembele is still losing too many balls and is still too week in defense.
- We don't have a proper RB for 4-3-3 since Roberto is bad in defense and Semede is ineffective in attack not to mention Pique is also too old and too reckless for 4-3-3 these days.
- Our midfielders are to slow with and without the ball, maybe Arthur isn't but he is still to inexperienced to take the main role this season.
- None of our midfielders apart from Busi is suitable for 4-3-3. So should we stick to 4-3-3 ONLY because it suits Busi more than others??? To be fair he is the only player from our starting 11 together with Alba who is suitable for 4-3-3.

Some of you should also stop with that stupid idea to bench Suarez and put Messi in the middle since Messi is definitely not a CF and we would be totally ineffective against stronger teams. Barca needs Suarez whether you like it or not. We have played our best football this year against Real, Inter and Tottenham where we didn't play our usual 4-3-3. So It's not about Dembele or Malcom or Messi or Busi it's about the system which is not suitable for our current squad! YOU SHOULD CHOOSE FORMATION BASED ON THE PLAYERS YOU HAVE AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!

I am sure that Pep or any other world class manager wouldn't play classical 4-3-3 formation with our current squad. No way in hell!

Raketa10 said:

There is no way on earth 4-3-3 can function with our current squad. We should move away from that idea ASAP! We are conceding goals like crazy and this needs to stop! We should go back to 4-4-2 or try 4-2-3-1 but 4-3-3 is something impossible right now! To be fair that 4-4-2 can easily be transformed to 4-2-3-1 and you can't do that with 4-3-3 formation.

Some of you are blind if you believe 4-3-3 is the way to go! If conceding 18 times in 12 games is not enough for you than I honestly don't know what is?! I don't know where to start with 4-3-3 problems but let's emphasize some major problems in that formation:

- We don't have a RW in 4-3-3 since Messi is basically playing free-role so it's like playing asymmetrical 4-3-1-2 system where right side is empty!
- Coutinho is not classical left winger he is more AM/LM so he can not perform well in that position.
- Malcom is better on the right side while he can ONLY play on the left in 4-3-3 formation since Messi is playing on the right (although he isn't).
- Dembele is still losing to many balls and is still to week in defense.
- We don't have a proper RB for 4-3-3 since Roberto is bad in defense and Semede is ineffective in attack not to mention Pique is also to old and to reckless for 4-3-3 these days.
- Our midfielders are to slow with and without the ball, maybe Arthur isn't but he is still to inexperienced to take the main role this season.
- None of our midfielders apart from Busi is suitable for 4-3-3. So should we stick to 4-3-3 ONLY because it suits Busi more than others??? To be fair he is the only player from our starting 11 together with Alba who is suitable for 4-3-3.

Some of you should also stop with that stupid idea to bench Suarez and put Messi in the middle since Messi is definitely not a CF and we would be totally ineffective against stronger teams. Barca needs Suarez whether you like it or not. We have played our best football this year against Real and Tottenham where we didn't play our usual 4-3-3. So It's not about Dembele or Malcom or Messi or Busi it's about the system which is not suitable for our current squad! YOU SHOULD CHOOSE FORMATION BASED ON THE PLAYERS YOU HAVE AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!!!

I am sure that Pep or any other world class manager wouldn't play classical 4-3-3 formation with our current squad. No way in hell!

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glad I'm not the only one who thinks the same thing (several times posted)

Tbh 2014 treble winning season was kinda the same at the start.

Devils said:

Real Madrid are back in title race.

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see what effect a new coach can have?

God Serena said:

Week after week after week the story remains the same. This is like Lucho's worst days, magnified ten times.

I've gotta say, BeIn picked a great season to lose their broadcasting rights in the states. I'd probably have jumped off a bridge if I missed any Barca games since 2006 but now just watching us play almost makes me want to jump now.

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how come I'm watching streams of beinsports usa broadcasts week after week then?