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Thread: Ernesto Valverde

  1. #2956
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    This guy must be scared of his mother. Always chooses the safest possible option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    Stagnant 433 is a disaster to say at least, we don't get proper attack, we don't get proper defense and we don't get control in midfield either. I prefer 433 for Barca historically but at the moment we will be sacrificing our midfielder most probably to do so. Iniesta and Rakitic aren't capable of doing it atm. Suarez and Messi can't play on wings either in which case even if Dembele plays it will be more or less 442 we are using with Vidal, which you can read as 433 or 442 depends on your preference but it is still the same tactic we are using atm
    Never mind we don't know how good Dembele is at the moment with all the injuries he had



    Yeah, he will need more playing time in next weeks for sure
    A stagnant 442 is worse. Having Paulinho in your team gives u zero control either. It's almost like putting a cone to make it 442, if u dont have the quality of a 442 it's equally useless and will only complicate matters. The crux of the issue is that we are playing possession football, if we can transition better, the more u will push the opponent further into the box and stretch their defence. Messi will drop deep don't worry, and once they get dominated so deep in their box they will hardly get past their halfway line. Suarez will have at least Dembele to poke at their defence and give him support, just like how Willian had Pedro.

    A narrow 442 possession will only risk more dispossession in the middle and one misplace pass u lead them an easy access to an easy counter. It's equally vulnerable. We almost got overran by Chelsea because of this. It's always a misconception to think 442 offers more defense but in terms of attacking, it provides nothing and can be easily countered. If u wanna play 442, U need a player better than Paulinho. Rakitic and Paulinho being wide midfielders is just as disastrous. We also need tall players with very good aerial ability and good crossers to accomodate the 442, we don't have that. Our defence could hardly maintain shape because we were so caught up with counter attacks and marking Hazard.

    The most ideal solution right now is getting quality players and solve our right flank issue. Dembele definitely has quality and needs more playing time, and time to give Semedo more runs so maybe he could come as a useful backup when Roberto needs help defensively. U cant just ditch some of ur backup players, since u already have them give them all equal rotational minutes this season. No more one dimensional approach and must try to boost the entire squad's game chemistry and attacking flexibility.
    Last edited by henias; Today at 04:10 AM.

  3. #2958
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    So are the likes of Dembele, Semedo not in form because of our stagnant 442? or are we sticking to the 442 because the likes of Dembele, Semedo are not in form?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan View Post
    So are the likes of Dembele, Semedo not in form because of our stagnant 442? or are we sticking to the 442 because the likes of Dembele, Semedo are not in form?
    Both. The fact that Dembele wasnt given a run against Eibar and Semedo as well, shows how he is willing to comfortably ditch them as potential backups, only then to find out Paulinho doesnt work at all. I know Semedo is suspended he could have played with at least Alba or Rakitic or Roberto getting some rest, but he deosnt care either. Only have one plan and no plan B is risky to say the least. 442 is actually more used to forcefully include Raki and Paulinho in the starting 11, despite knowing they are terrible as wide midfielders.

    Vidal might not be a quality player but he is a decent wide player who can put in some crosses. Once Vidal was subbed in, immediately he was able to exploit the space on the right and almost put a clean cross to Suarez but got tackled. But he isnt our long term solution of course.

    Even Roberto and Semedo in a 442 will have much better linkup then Paulinho. But using Roberto as a plain RB and Paulinho to link up with him in a narrow 442 is very very limited and disastrous.
    Last edited by henias; Today at 03:56 AM.

  5. #2960
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    Listening to Valverde's press conference he seemed to suggest he gives different instructions to players depending on their skillset even if they play in the same position with the same basic tactics and lineup. Nothing extraordinary, pretty basic and makes sense.

    I wonder if he uses Semedo further back due to his recovery pace and instructs whoever the RM is to attack more as he'll have Semedo back when needed to help out Rakitic in a hypothetical lineup and vice versa. Could explain his lack of attacking output and struggles.........or he could simply be struggling to adapt right now.

    Dembele has been injured and even when played not been that bad as people make him out to be. In the 15 minutes he played vs Getafe he created two chances through crosses......which was two more than almost the rest of the team.
    Just get a better midfield

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    No worries . Our revamped stadium will hold 105,000 so there's no way that this kind of drossy football will be tolerated . He will be replaced in the summer .

    Every Barca related forum shows that the majority of fans want him gone

  7. #2962
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barcaman View Post
    Watford countered Shitty even better so what's your point.
    Ask @BBZ8800. He is the one of the impression that the 4-4-2 is better to deal with counters than a 4-3-3. I argue against this. You can't stop counters... All you can do is be prepared for them or win the ball back high up.

    Quote Originally Posted by JamDav1982 View Post
    You posted stats that show 4-4-2 for Barca is the best formation defensively and resulted in Barca having the best defence in top three leagues in terms of chances created against.
    No. I posted those stats to show that the variations of the 4-4-2 are no better defensively than a 4-3-3. The differences are negligible in terms of xGA90.

    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    I don't like the whole 433 or 442 debate tbh
    As many coaches say, this isn't what happens on the pitch, they tell a player to move a few meters up or back and you have different formations. It is about the role they give to each player
    Right now our problems aren't about 442 or 433, it is about the pace we are attacking, very passive possession isn't gonna work. If you want to play defensive then you need to be fast in attacking which isn't happening, only happened when they have done a mistake. Dembele and Coutinho would probably solve this issues next year but not this season and EV will need to raise his game.
    And today we made same mistake 3 times and midfield didn't cover for shooting outside the box.
    Using opponents defensive error is ok tactically, but when you are doing your work perfectly and have a plan B when you need it.
    His worst game since super cup
    I'm glad you brought this up but this is where I disagree with a lot on this board and I've explained this before. Formations define roles, they define spaces, they allow players to conserve energy, they directly linked to tactics...

    Since Cruyff's time Barcelona have used what is called the 3 P's. Possession, Pressure and Position. Under Valverde we only have the possession. The rest is utterly chaotic.

    In terms of position we have maybe 2 players (Iniesta and Busquets) that are positionally astute but the rest are just meh. I'd include Dembélé (played JDP under Tuchel) in here as well but he doesn't play often so I exclude for consistency. Now that Rakitic is part of a double pivot he is all over the place. He doesn't know if he should take up a position to the left or to the right of Busquets or if he should play ahead or behind him. Paulinho is everywhere and nowhere at the same time despite it being glaringly obvious that he is no good in tight spaces.

    It becomes extremely difficult to pass the ball around quickly when the player in possession doesn't instinctively know where his teammates are and you end up with pointless possession and too many touches before the ball moves.

    In terms of the pressing. This is again very sporadic. There have been games when it was on point and then there are games where defensive shape is prioritised over winning the ball back.

    The way I see it, we go back to playing our 4-3-3 possession game or we continue with these double pivot experiments. Continuing with the double pivot would necessitate a change in the way we play though. We'd have to give up possession and play a little more chaotic like Madrid for example and rely on individual brilliance more.

  8. #2963
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    It's actually at the brink of hilarious how light-minded people can be: Ernesto was God until some weeks ago, now he is trash.

    My take for yesterday and in general:

    1) For the game:
    Not convincing appearance for sure.
    But, was the team actually inferior to Chelsea?
    I don't think so. We were toothless upfront against a very well parked bus, but so was Chelsea.
    If you look at the chances they created, they weren't able to make clear cut chances, even on their quick transitions and counters.
    All big chances Chelsea created, came from the individual brilliance of Willian (what a player by the way ), who is one of the few able to blister 'rocketshots' from tiny pockets of space. But, that's barely a threatening plan for a team..
    People say the same for Barca, when we win, because of the individual brilliance of Messi. It's part of the game, but can you say Barca was inferior? Not really..
    To my eyes, the game was cut for a 0-0, which would have been much worse as a result for us, but would have been much more representative though!
    Nothing surprising as well. EV's approach the whole year has been all about covering our lack of quality with solid defending.

    Here are the xGoals (Barca on a short head, but if you count out Cristiansen's mistake, Chelsea would have been ):https://twitter.com/11tegen11/status/966068755112525824

    2) For the 4-4-2:
    Personally i hate this formation for modern football standards.
    What have we seen this season though?
    That it is maybe the best formation to cover weaknesses (like the fact that we don't have proper and good wingers to play in a 4-3-3, like the fact that Suarez is a shadow of himself this season, like the fact that Suarez cannot be converted to a winger at the age of 30something, like the fact that Messi has stopped defending some years ago and when he starts at the RW position there is a glaring hole where the opposition LB plays, like the fact that neither Iniesta nor (and let alone) Raki can play anymore as internal '8s' in a 4-3-3, and many other facts)

    3) For the XI
    People complaining about Raki and paulinho. I second that. The former should not play for Barca anymore, the latter should play easy LaLiga games, and only in special occasions, where there is box to box space to be exploited (which is maybe the only thing he can do well)
    So, how is that EV's fault? The reasoning here becomes a bit convoluted, because people refuse to see the simple fact that EV is forced to find ways of playing with players like Vidal, Paco, Gomez, and until recently with Denis and Deulofeu. People refuse to see that Barca has maybe the worst squad in terms if individual quality since i don't know when, maybe even before Rijkaard!!!
    It's not only Neymar's loss, it's bad and inadequate transfers over the last 4 years accumulated.
    Oh, and i forgot to say: Dembele looked very promising at Dortmund, but apart from his injury, he hasn't been accustomed to either what the coach wants from him or playing for a big club.
    Coutinho looks more ready, but he still need a loooooot of time. He is not even half of the player he was at Liverpool so far.
    Last edited by Birdy; Today at 07:20 AM.
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    Can't criticize the team for not creating any chances tbh. They were, after all, playing against an Italian coach. Everyone knows you can't create chances against them, let alone score.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lelouch vi Britannia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
    It's actually at the brink of hilarious how light-minded people can be: Ernesto was God until some weeks ago, now he is trash.
    Not me. I still maintain he is not the coach to take this team forward.


    2) For the 4-4-2:
    Personally i hate this formation for modern football standards.
    What have we seen this season though?
    That it is maybe the best formation to cover weaknesses (like the fact that we don't have proper and good wingers to play in a 4-3-3, like the fact that Suarez is a shadow of himself this season, like the fact that Suarez cannot be converted to a winger at the age of 30something, like the fact that Messi has stopped defending some years ago and when he starts at the RW position there is a glaring hole where the opposition LB plays, like the fact that neither Iniesta nor (and let alone) Raki can play anymore as internal '8s' in a 4-3-3, and many other facts)
    Really good post. But no good wingers? Eh... We have Coutinho, we have Dembélé and if it weren't for Valverde's reluctance to make some hard choices their integration would have been a lot more seamless. Valverde has played Coutinho as a RW, RM, LW, LM, LCM... How is he supposed to gain any sort of consistency when he is passed around from position to position like some sort of Amsterdam prostitute? Sometimes he is asked to switch positions in the same game. Dembélé even though fit again has not seen any minutes since Getafe. A game in which despite losing the ball often created more chances than anybody except Messi. He is dangerous this guy. His mere presence allows for more space through the middle.

    Can't play as 8's... Rakitic was never an 8, hell, he was never a 6. He is a box to box workhorse who, according to you can't play internally, but yet is being used as part of a double pivot. Mmmmm...

    Iniesta... You say can't play as an 8 either any longer but the solution for Valverde is to move him wider where more pace and skill is required...

    Suarez... Nobody is asking him to convert to a winger, he would play as a left inside forward. Something which he is doing often enough already. I'd actually prefer he be moved on because him and Messi in the same 11 causes imbalances


    3) For the XI
    People complaining about Raki and paulinho. I second that. The former should not play for Barca anymore, the latter should play easy LaLiga games, and only in special occasions, where there is box to box space to be exploited (which is maybe the only thing he can do well)
    So, how is that EV's fault? The reasoning here becomes a bit convoluted, because people refuse to see the simple fact that EV is forced to find ways of playing with players like Vidal, Paco, Gomez, and until recently with Denis and Deulofeu. People refuse to see that Barca has maybe the worst squad in terms if individual quality since i don't know when, maybe even before Rijkaard!!!
    It's not only Neymar's loss, it's bad and inadequate transfers over the last 4 years accumulated.
    Oh, and i forgot to say: Dembele looked very promising at Dortmund, but apart from his injury, he hasn't been accustomed to either what the coach wants from him or playing for a big club.
    Coutinho looks more ready, but he still need a loooooot of time. He is not even half of the player he was at Liverpool so far.
    Valverde is mismanaging the squad. Players are playing in positions and roles they're not suited for. Paulinho, Gomes, Iniesta, Coutinho, Roberto...

    I also don't think that we're lacking in terms of individual quality, especially now. Messi, Suarez, Dembélé, Coutinho, Iniesta, Busquets, Roberto, Alba, Umtiti, Pique, MaTS, Cillessen. And then you have a guy like Denis with obvious Barça creative qualities but he is not being developed because Valverde prefers a workhorse like Gomes. Rafinha was sent packing too...

    This season is starting smell a lot like Tata's season.

  11. #2966
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelouch vi Britannia View Post
    Can't criticize the team for not creating any chances tbh. They were, after all, playing against an Italian coach. Everyone knows you can't create chances against them, let alone score.
    The team only create chances through Messi, and this is fine for normal La Liga games but against quality UCL opponents, it will not simply work when they shut down Messi. Contrary to popular opinion here, I think this team is more dependant on Messi than ever. It's evident when you see Liga highest goalscorer and assist this season, both Messi. While last season you have Suarez and Neymar in the top 3 assist list (Messi 6th), top scorer was Suarez. 2015/16, again Suarez tops Liga assist and Neymar 4th. This season none beside Messi tops Liga assist list.

    Also, another evidence is Messi dribble attempt, He is currently averaging more dribbles per 90 minutes than he has in any of his previous 6 league seasons. He dribbles more because he doesn't have anyone forward to pass the ball to. He is surrounded by the defensive players around him like Raki, Paulinho, and Roberto.

    EV might be able to compete for domestic trophies but he isn't the manager to rely on if we want to win the UCL. If Real wins the UCL again (which is likely), I will consider our campaign as a failure despite winning the league.
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    So we have 4 games now before facing Chelsea again, looking at how Valverde has approached the season so far, i think it will look something like this:
    home vs Girona - another team in good shape and was dangerous away, but as it is home-tie and players need rest, I expect quite a few changes and most probably the likes of Semedo/Paco/Vidal/Digne/Gomes/Dembele/Coutinho/Verma? getting chance to play
    1 week rest
    away vs Las Palmas - we will field already stronger team, as it is away tie and hope to sub players in second half if possible.
    home vs Atletico - this match will probably see lineup and tactics we will use vs Chelsea. Home tie, vs strong defensive team that most probably needs to win, so needs to open up at some point.
    1 week rest
    away vs Malaga - probably play this with 50% level (especially if we get good result vs Atletico), escape with a tie and forum goes nuts how Chelsea will run over us