Ernesto Valverde - V1

Ousmane Dembélé said:

You keep complaining about people being too "negative" and the typical "Barcaforum phenomenon." You have repeatedly ridiculed people that don't agree with the way Valverde is setting us up to play, the play of Rakitic and Suarez, the lack of play time for Semedo etc. There are valid reasons as to why one would think that way and all you've been doing is mocking these people rather than responding to them with an actual argument.

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You and me seem to have completely different understanding of word "ridicule".

Neymessi said:

You are being pedantically repetitive.

You keep saying people form a common opinion and everyone nods their head. I ask you how do you know they are formed due to a group effect and not because most people just have their individual opinion like that?

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Sure, I will try to explain. This forum and, reddit barca group, facebook Barca fanclubs and more are all in essence social groups, which have different people from different backrounds having different opinions. But as they have people who generally have joined because they are fan of the club, if you ask them a few statements like "is messi better than ronaldo", or "do you like Iniesta", you will get 99% of people voting same way, no matter what group you are talking about.
Things get weird, if essentially fans of same thing, get opposite results. Why does this happen? Because of influencers. People with alot of credibility and loud voice generally form an opinion that is easier to follow than to disagree with. Also, if you hear same thing repeatedly being said over and over, most of people will start believing it, even if you disagree in the beginning. Thats the group effect I am talking about. Lets take Rakitic case for example. You have reddit, where he is hailed as the complete midfielder and you have barcaforum, where by general opinion he should be if not sold then at least benched. Both groups are essentially of same demographic nature, like same thing, but when it comes to 1 detail, they disagree totally. Now it may be also some weird coincidence that all Rakitic fans are in reddit and none here, but it is more likely that it is not the case.
Studies show that social media is one of the most influencial medias that changes opinions of people dramatically. Thats individual opinions I am talking about.
BUt anyways, i rest my case, you are probably correct, saying same thing over and over again is pretty useless if it comes from single source.

LeeRomeno said:

Sure, I will try to explain. This forum and, reddit barca group, facebook Barca fanclubs and more are all in essence social groups, which have different people from different backrounds having different opinions. But as they have people who generally have joined because they are fan of the club, if you ask them a few statements like "is messi better than ronaldo", or "do you like Iniesta", you will get 99% of people voting same way, no matter what group you are talking about.
Things get weird, if essentially fans of same thing, get opposite results. Why does this happen? Because of influencers. People with alot of credibility and loud voice generally form an opinion that is easier to follow than to disagree with. Also, if you hear same thing repeatedly being said over and over, most of people will start believing it, even if you disagree in the beginning. Thats the group effect I am talking about. Lets take Rakitic case for example. You have reddit, where he is hailed as the complete midfielder and you have barcaforum, where by general opinion he should be if not sold then at least benched. Both groups are essentially of same demographic nature, like same thing, but when it comes to 1 detail, they disagree totally. Now it may be also some weird coincidence that all Rakitic fans are in reddit and none here, but it is more likely that it is not the case.
Studies show that social media is one of the most influencial medias that changes opinions of people dramatically. Thats individual opinions I am talking about.
BUt anyways, i rest my case, you are probably correct, saying same thing over and over again is pretty useless if it comes from single source.

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You just explained how group effect works but you didn't explain why it works only on barcaforum and nowhere else even on barca subreddit.

You say they all hail raki as the complete midfielder there so why don't you assume that they are having a group effect?

Whats makes you think reddit doesnt have this so called group effect? Comment that disagrees with the main post gets immediate downvotes. You have the audacity about influence, reddit has much more of that effect due to the large presence of a main post, which leads people to think it's right due to the depth and length of the posts and ability to influence with the upvote and downvote of comments.

Get out of here.

Rakitic is trash and Valverde is a muppet for continually playing him.

That's as obvious as 2 + 2 = 4

henias said:

Whats makes you think reddit doesnt have this so called group effect? Comment that disagrees with the main post gets immediate downvotes. You have the audacity about influence, reddit has much more of that effect due to the large presence of a main post, which leads people to think it's right due to the depth and length of the posts and ability to influence with the upvote and downvote of comments.

Get out of here.

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Never said it, I said truth is somewhere in between most probably. On this case bf to extreme negative and reddit to extreme positive, neither is correct.

Neymessi said:

You just explained how group effect works but you didn't explain why it works only on barcaforum and nowhere else even on barca subreddit.

You say they all hail raki as the complete midfielder there so why don't you assume that they are having a group effect?

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Of course they do...

LeeRomeno said:

Never said it, I said truth is somewhere in between most probably. On this case bf to extreme negative and reddit to extreme positive, neither is correct.

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Only difference is you try to shit on and complain BF so much and for reddit, u just write off as "not correct". Gives so much names like "Barcaforum phenomenon" when BF has less of this group effect than Reddit.

Dont look like saint now after spewing so much shit.

LeeRomeno said:

Of course they do...

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Huh? You have changed your stance.

Back then you were saying people on reddit were much saner than the ones here.

Research show that the so called group effect is not as prevalent in an online setting as in a real life setting due to the fact that our body language makes up a good part of what we really are communicating, and what influence our communication has on one other. So probably it is just the fact that Rakitic is a bag of garbage and we all see that?

Everytime I'm sad about our playing style I open transfermarkt.com and look at our squad. Then I think about Lucho and what he would do with this squad and then I'm happy with the points we have. 8 points ahead of Real, that's fine.

behindbrowneyes said:

Everytime I'm sad about our playing style I open transfermarkt.com and look at our squad. Then I think about Lucho and what he would do with this squad and then I'm happy with the points we have. 8 points ahead of Real, that's fine.

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Recently saw a documentary about Carles Rexach. It reminded me of how bad we looked then. He coached us in 2002 and he inherited squad in problems and club in turmoil. He was take-it-easy kind of guy, true Barcelonista and member of Dream Team. He failed badly but documentary opened my eyes to see stuff from his angle and now I see that while he could have done more, he was dealt a bad deal. Barca were in crisis and management blew the money on bad and expensive signings. He also needed to change tactics as we didn't have proper wingers (Overmars injury), Rivaldo being out for crucial CL semi-final against Real. Point is, we need to take things in from all the angles.

So yes, maybe Lucho wouldn't do well either with losing Neymar and with no replacement available. But you also have to remember he was smart enough to alter our strategy from midfield to front three and it worked. So I have no doubt he would be pragmatic and changed things again.

Jury is still out on Valverde. And same with Rexach, we can't be too harsh when he also has been dealt a tough deal. We'll see how things will look once Dembele will be in. Primarily, how we'll play football.

Neymessi said:

Huh? You have changed your stance.

Back then you were saying people on reddit were much saner than the ones here.

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Not really, I was saying some general opinions on this forum are contraversal to other mediums including Reddit. Never said anything about them being some sort of quality standard.

henias said:

Only difference is you try to shit on and complain BF so much and for reddit, u just write off as "not correct". Gives so much names like "Barcaforum phenomenon" when BF has less of this group effect than Reddit.

Dont look like saint now after spewing so much shit.

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Umm, we are in BF not in reddit. If I want to raise a topic about reddit I would do it there.

michelco said:

Research show that the so called group effect is not as prevalent in an online setting as in a real life setting due to the fact that our body language makes up a good part of what we really are communicating, and what influence our communication has on one other. So probably it is just the fact that Rakitic is a bag of garbage and we all see that?

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I am pretty sure that you are correct about the online vs offline effect. Looking at how mass events have turned random people into angry mobb is something that takes much longer online and with less effect. Does not make it nonexistent though.

Nothing wrong with positivity but at the same time you can't ignore the negatives as well. it's one of the problems I have with r/barca is that while it's mostly positive there's a lot of fans on there that find some interesting ways to downplay some of the negative problems we may have.

On the other end The Barcelona Bigsoccer forum is hard to read most of time with some dumb immature posts when shit goes bad. No forum is perfect but I find shit boring if the forum either way to positive or negative.

Nothing is perfect but here I think we are better off meeting in the middle of things than other places.

LeeRomeno said:

Not really, I was saying some general opinions on this forum are contraversal to other mediums including Reddit. Never said anything about them being some sort of quality standard.



Umm, we are in BF not in reddit. If I want to raise a topic about reddit I would do it there.



I am pretty sure that you are correct about the online vs offline effect. Looking at how mass events have turned random people into angry mobb is something that takes much longer online and with less effect. Does not make it nonexistent though.

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So what? You expect everything to have a perfect 50/50 or a 60/40, opinions regardless of the good or bad situations or have a universal fixed percentage of negatives or postives? And then what is the point of forums if u are just rendering everything useless? There will always be a majority and minority, be it a large majority or a small one. It's the same as movie reviews or any other reviews u can find online. The percentages are always still generally correct. You cant write off a movie which has a 5/100 rating to be "group effect". Chances are the movie is fking terrible.

You also cant compare BF with say newspapers, or online articles, because they always have a few selected journalists and writers and certain policies they have to adhere while forums like this involves the congregation of the mass general public with the freedom of speech. BF vs Reddit is a fair comparison but anything that is not forum-like shouldnt be included in this study.

Michelo is right about the online vs offline, but the fact that u were so grossly disgusted by the "group effect" in just online medias, just shows how nitpicky, uninformed and overly biased you are. You are desperately trying to change something that is seemingly impossible about human behaviour, but at the same time in the LEAST prevalent place like online situations, where everyone has an equal opportunity to type what they want instead of competing for the loudest voice in real life situations. You are also not factoring in that BF doesnt utilise main posts or upvotes and downvotes, which further exacerbate the issue as u would constantly LOVE to claim. These factors are enough to defend BF, that's if u exclude some extreme inevitable trolls in the internet.

Funny thing is, you keep using values like 99% or 90%, like where the hell did you get those values from? Arent u the loudest voice trying to promote something so inaccurate and get people to agree with you? Quoting some from the lastest match threads doesnt help your case either, because those negative percentages increased bcos people watched Rakitic more and are able to evaluate him as a whole as season progresses. It has nothing to do with group effect.

All in all, you are being overly negative about the so-called "negativity" in the most equitable place u can find, it being an online forum and the lack of mechanism (main posts and upvote/downvotes) to help influence such an effect.

henias said:

So what? You expect everything to have a perfect 50/50 or a 60/40, opinions regardless of the good or bad situations or have a universal fixed percentage of negatives or postives? And then what is the point of forums if u are just rendering everything useless? There will always be a majority and minority, be it a large majority or a small one. It's the same as movie reviews or any other reviews u can find online. The percentages are always still generally correct. You cant write off a movie which has a 5/100 rating to be "group effect". Chances are the movie is fking terrible.

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Once again you are missing my point. There does not have to be a perfect opinion ratio? Where did I say that? In your analogy, what would be my issue, is if the forum I am present considers "movie X" completely awful with 1-2 rating, while rotten tomatoes, imdb and rest of the portals consider it pretty good with 6-7 ratings. I would then start to question why is it like that.

You also cant compare BF with say newspapers, or online articles, because they always have a few selected journalists and writers and certain policies they have to adhere while forums like this involves the congregation of the mass general public with the freedom of speech. BF vs Reddit is a fair comparison but anything that is not forum-like shouldnt be included in this study.

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I would not call it a study, as there is nothing scientific behind it. I just find it weird how there are certain players who get negative feedback way more often than in other sources.

Michelo is right about the online vs offline, but the fact that u were so grossly disgusted by the "group effect" in just online medias, just shows how nitpicky, uninformed and overly biased you are. You are desperately trying to change something that is seemingly impossible about human behaviour, but at the same time in the LEAST prevalent place like online situations, where everyone has an equal opportunity to type what they want instead of competing for the loudest voice in real life situations. You are also not factoring in that BF doesnt utilise main posts or upvotes and downvotes, which further exacerbate the issue as u would constantly LOVE to claim. These factors are enough to defend BF, that's if u exclude some extreme inevitable trolls in the internet.

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No need to exaggerate, my issue is as far as it can be from "being disgusted". Also, please, where did I say anything about trying to change the world, I was merely stating my opinion on why some things are as they are. You may agree or disagree with it, thats about it. Only ones that can change mentality of any community are its leaders and I am not that. Being loudest offline is different from online, but the effect is still there. OUt of the 5000 users on this forum, there are many who never even log on, they read anonymously, then there are many who speak rarely and then there are people who speak basically every day and express their opinion about everything. In social media overall they are called "influencers". They are very commonly used in marketing and get paid massive amounts of money to talk positively about services and products. No marketer would ever use them if they would not be able to generate effect. Exact same thing happens here as well. It is part of human nature to want to belong to a group and associate yourselves with influencers. It works a bit differently online, but it is there. As for upvote and downvote, what this system does is take away your need to post exactly similar content. On this forum, result of having no voting system will just produce number of very similar content posts.

Funny thing is, you keep using values like 99% or 90%, like where the hell did you get those values from? Arent u the loudest voice trying to promote something so inaccurate and get people to agree with you? Quoting some from the lastest match threads doesnt help your case either, because those negative percentages increased bcos people watched Rakitic more and are able to evaluate him as a whole as season progresses. It has nothing to do with group effect.

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What values are you talking about? And for the love of god, i could not care less how many people agree with me. As for the quotes, they are direct result of that, prejudice towards a few players.

All in all, you are being overly negative about the so-called "negativity" in the most equitable place u can find, it being an online forum and the lack of mechanism (main posts and upvote/downvotes) to help influence such an effect.

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I am perfectly aware of that i can be wrong, so far none of the arguments have proved it otherwise though for me. But this discussion has turned bland and boring, no need to repeat myself anymore, so I will drop it, have a nice day.