Ernesto Valverde - V1

i_bleed_blaugrana said:

You do realized that this is pretty much 100% what EV is currently doing when we are in our off the ball shape, correct? I am struggling to see any new suggestion in this line-up at all with what EV is doing currently.

We should never play with a double-pivot imho, plain and simple. It never suits our style, it leaves acres of space when we do move forward for the other team to counter us and in terms of providing defensive cover, I'd argue that different formations would allow us to do that but with better options for us going forward.

Our formation should be some sort of variation on a 4-3-3 (false 9 or true 9) and honestly, I really want us to utilize a 3-4-3 more. I've never quite understood why EV has never tried this tactically, as it would give us all of the same things he likes about a double-pivot 4-4-2 but would allow our attacking game to not be stifled. Just about everything you named that would beneficial in the formation you proposed, I'd argue you'd accomplish the same thing with a 3-4-3.

Click to expand...

I would be enthusiastic about watching a 3-4-3 but this would take time to establish and trying it out without any emergency in the CL would be quite risky. I would like to see this :

------------------Suarez-------------------
---Coutinho-----------------------Dembele
-------------------Messi--------------------
------------Arthur-------Rakitic------------
------------------Busquets-----------------
---Alba-----------Lenglet-----------Piqué-

With Dembele, Messi and Coutinho switching positions when Barca is on the ball, that could be interesting. Suarez also having freedom, Rakitic and Arthur backing them when in offensive possession phases and Busquets supervising the midfield.

Daring playing without a keeper. With Guardiola maybe.


Would really like to see a 3-4-3 next season though, just to give Messi a chance to reinvent himself as a proper 10. Its damn offensive though. And realistically wont happen.

That's 11 players and no GK.

Mido said:

I would be enthusiastic about watching a 3-4-3 but this would take time to establish and trying it out without any emergency in the CL would be quite risky. I would like to see this :

------------------Suarez-------------------
---Coutinho-----------------------Dembele
-------------------Messi--------------------
------------Arthur-------Rakitic------------
------------------Busquets-----------------
---Alba-----------Lenglet-----------Piqué-

With Dembele, Messi and Coutinho switching positions when Barca is on the ball, that could be interesting. Suarez also having freedom, Rakitic and Arthur backing them when in offensive possession phases and Busquets supervising the midfield.

Click to expand...

Pique defending fast wingers on his own... Good luck with that.

Mido said:

I would be enthusiastic about watching a 3-4-3 but this would take time to establish and trying it out without any emergency in the CL would be quite risky. I would like to see this :

------------------Suarez-------------------
---Coutinho-----------------------Dembele
-------------------Messi--------------------
------------Arthur-------Rakitic------------
------------------Busquets-----------------
---Alba-----------Lenglet-----------Piqué-

With Dembele, Messi and Coutinho switching positions when Barca is on the ball, that could be interesting. Suarez also having freedom, Rakitic and Arthur backing them when in offensive possession phases and Busquets supervising the midfield.

Click to expand...

That would work with a fast midfielder .. like Frankie next season .
Won’t work with Busqs covered by slowish Arthur and snail-paced Rakitic

Mido said:

I would be enthusiastic about watching a 3-4-3 but this would take time to establish and trying it out without any emergency in the CL would be quite risky. I would like to see this :

------------------Suarez-------------------
---Coutinho-----------------------Dembele
-------------------Messi--------------------
------------Arthur-------Rakitic------------
------------------Busquets-----------------
---Alba-----------Lenglet-----------Piqué-

With Dembele, Messi and Coutinho switching positions when Barca is on the ball, that could be interesting. Suarez also having freedom, Rakitic and Arthur backing them when in offensive possession phases and Busquets supervising the midfield.

Click to expand...

I mean... “ambitious”..

Any formation using a diamond midfield or removing conventional use of fullbacks is synonymous with those fullbacks or wingers being world class creators in the mould of most Brazilians you could name in the past 20-30 years. This setup you gave has no balance on wings with your current personnel, your LCM- RCM would be glued and stretched out side effectively playing wide. Which makes little sense if you’re Arthur or Rakitic. Alba as LCB serves no purpose, his strength isn’t attacking from that deep.

I do like placement of Messi though. It’s something to think about there. Even if Coutinho would probably serve better there.

Messi needs to embrace being a #9. No two ways about it.

That setup didn't even work with what was probably the best midfield of all time (Xavi, Iniesta, Sergio, Cesc, Thiago) + workhorse winger Pedro (and Alexis could run a lot as well) + Dani who could pretty much cover RW+RB all alone coached by Pep, no way it works with our current midfield + Dembele/Cou on the wing + Pique in right CB and Ernesto fucking Valverde on the sideline.

It looks like pure suicide, we can't even properly defend with another RB on the field. The wings aren't great defenders, Suarez and Messi aren't doing much and the whole midfield is slow as hell. We also can't control games like we used to back in Pep days so it get's even riskier.

I feel like 3-4-3 diamond is almost impossible to pull off on high level play. You would need a perfect fitting player for every position there. Pretty much full la masia world class 11, but again we already (almost) had that when Pep tried to transition to this formation and it still didn't work out that great. Like even if i could pick any 11 players of my choice right now i don't think 3-4-3# would be working perfectly.

3-4-3 can work in the Liga but definitely not the CL

The lineup that suited us the most was the 4-3-3 with Messi in a false nine role along with Suarez moving inside and Alba pushing up to stretch the wing with Dembele as RW.

Dont get why this fraud did not try it again this season with a healthy Dembele and Arthur in the midfield with Raki and Busquets, it beats us currently playing this sort of 4-3-3 with Messi coming inside most of the time and leaving the wing exposed.

Cool said:

The lineup that suited us the most was the 4-3-3 with Messi in a false nine role along with Suarez moving inside and Alba pushing up to stretch the wing with Dembele as RW.

Dont get why this fraud did not try it again this season with a healthy Dembele and Arthur in the midfield with Raki and Busquets, it beats us currently playing this sort of 4-3-3 with Messi coming inside most of the time and leaving the wing exposed.

Click to expand...

Exactly. I've been saying this for some time now. Suarez as a LST/LF with Messi as SS/CAM with Dembele on RW. Alba can cover the winger things that Suarez can't do.


----------------MATS---------------
Semedo---Pique---Lenglet---Alba
--------------Busquets-------------
------Rakitić-----------------------
----------------------Arthur-------
-Dembele-------------------------
-------------Messi-----Suarez----

If he fields The Sloth Trio in midfield again today (as rumoured), he is officially insane.

Mido said:

I would be enthusiastic about watching a 3-4-3 but this would take time to establish and trying it out without any emergency in the CL would be quite risky. I would like to see this :

------------------Suarez-------------------
---Coutinho-----------------------Dembele
-------------------Messi--------------------
------------Arthur-------Rakitic------------
------------------Busquets-----------------
---Alba-----------Lenglet-----------Piqué-

With Dembele, Messi and Coutinho switching positions when Barca is on the ball, that could be interesting. Suarez also having freedom, Rakitic and Arthur backing them when in offensive possession phases and Busquets supervising the midfield.

Click to expand...

A) Our MF currently is no where near good enough at controlling games to run the Cruyff diamond. I love this formation but this flat out would not work with only Busi and Arthur knowing how to pass/dribble through a press.

B) You didn't address my original question: how was the 4-4-2 you posted any different than Valverde's right now? I'll literally post a screenshot of a game and show you it.

K. So with that being said, let me show you what I meant by the statement that under Valverde, a 3-4-3 can accomplish the same things he wants in the 4-4-2 but better. But this is purely hypothetical/theoretical...

[formation=barca,6]
ter Stegen
0-0-0-0-0-0-0
0-De Ligt-0-Pique-0-Umtiti-0
0-0-Busi-0-De Jong-0-0
Roberto/Semedo-0-0-0-0-0-Alba
0-Messi-0-0-0-Dembele-0
0-0-0-Luis-0-0-0
0-0-0-0-0-0-0
[/formation]

Conte did this against us in the first leg last year and they really outplayed us. The key here is with the wingbacks and CMs, they form the same 4 man block the 4-4-2 produces with an extra CB and a forward:

[formation=barca,6]
ter Stegen
0-0-0-0-0-0-0
0-De Ligt-0-Pique-0-Umtiti-0
Roberto/Semedo-0-Busi-0-De Jong-0-Alba
0-0-0-0-0-0-0
0-Messi-0-0-0-Dembele-0
0-0-0-Luis-0-0-0
0-0-0-0-0-0-0
[/formation]

Furthermore, this allows either Messi or Dembele to drop off to create an overload through the center. I am counting De Ligt here bc if you follow the rumors, it seems highly likely he'll be in the blaugrana with Frenkie. But the key point here is that in defensive phases, this achieves everything Valverde likes about the 4-4-2 but a stronger back line and a more potent counter attack. The Cruyff Diamond is very, very different in practice than a traditional 3-4-3, which is what I was referring to.

MTL_Barca said:

That setup didn't even work with what was probably the best midfield of all time (Xavi, Iniesta, Sergio, Cesc, Thiago) + workhorse winger Pedro (and Alexis could run a lot as well) + Dani who could pretty much cover RW+RB all alone coached by Pep, no way it works with our current midfield + Dembele/Cou on the wing + Pique in right CB and Ernesto fucking Valverde on the sideline.

It looks like pure suicide, we can't even properly defend with another RB on the field. The wings aren't great defenders, Suarez and Messi aren't doing much and the whole midfield is slow as hell. We also can't control games like we used to back in Pep days so it get's even riskier.

I feel like 3-4-3 diamond is almost impossible to pull off on high level play. You would need a perfect fitting player for every position there. Pretty much full la masia world class 11, but again we already (almost) had that when Pep tried to transition to this formation and it still didn't work out that great. Like even if i could pick any 11 players of my choice right now i don't think 3-4-3# would be working perfectly.

Click to expand...

Agree with it not working now, disagree with the statement that Pep's Barca didn't make this work. The only reason why we didn't sweep that year was due to Fabregas and in particular, David Villa's injury (a lot of people forget how important that was in that season). That's why we'd create chance after chance after chance but wouldn't find the goal. To compare it with American Football, and I said this back then as well, we had a bunch of QBs but not enough WRs (not enough players making runs in behind and that were clinical with their finishing).

With the right players, this formation could work. We used this formation to great success in the CL against PSG & Milan. But with who we have currently, they just aren't good enough in possession to mitigate how open defensively you become in the Cruyff Diamond.

Want no excuses tonight.

Giving this cunt another contract just further shows how badly run the club is. Utter disgrace.