clemente
New member
Because he is too good to be a backup? Wtf can you not understand? He is a starter in pretty much any top team.
Because he is too good to be a backup? Wtf can you not understand? He is a starter in pretty much any top team.
Devils
Senior Member
Well if what you say is true then Valverde is in Tata territory with him abandoning his principles to please others. That's the worst case scenario because it makes him an indecisive manager.
The entire Roma match was defensive football, but we were torn to pieces there while the Levante game was attacking and we were still torn to pieces.
You would never see Simeone abandoning his defensive football or Klopp abandoning his attacking football. Generally speaking, it's very hard to stop these teams from playing highly effective defensive or attacking football. Systems don't change based on the players that come in for these guys. They adapt their players and get them to play to their strengths in the system.
My issue with EV is that he does neither effectively. What he has shown so far has been extremely limited.
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
If you consider anything Valverde showed this season anywhere near "barca stayle" you probably just have a strange picture in mind when you think about that lol.
Just putting the players in a 4-3-3 doesn't make it more "barca style" by default. Valverdes luck just ran out and he played without Messi and a weaker defense (Umtiti for Mina probably wins the Levante game), he didn't change things up at all.
Weak pressing, no coordination, no control etc it's always the same with him, there was no difference between EV style and EVs "barca style" this season at all. We didn't play worse this season when we played "barca style", we always played kinda bad because it never was anything close to Barca style. We didn't play Barca style vs roma, we didn't play Barca style vs levante.
You're right there are more problems like the squad and the board preventing us from playing better football (even Pep would struggle with Paulinho+Gomes in midfield) but Valverdes change of "style" sounds completely made up. Weaker defenders and more attacking players leading to more conceded goals isn't an indication for it being "Barca style".
Just putting the players in a 4-3-3 doesn't make it more "barca style" by default. Valverdes luck just ran out and he played without Messi and a weaker defense (Umtiti for Mina probably wins the Levante game), he didn't change things up at all.
Weak pressing, no coordination, no control etc it's always the same with him, there was no difference between EV style and EVs "barca style" this season at all. We didn't play worse this season when we played "barca style", we always played kinda bad because it never was anything close to Barca style. We didn't play Barca style vs roma, we didn't play Barca style vs levante.
You're right there are more problems like the squad and the board preventing us from playing better football (even Pep would struggle with Paulinho+Gomes in midfield) but Valverdes change of "style" sounds completely made up. Weaker defenders and more attacking players leading to more conceded goals isn't an indication for it being "Barca style".
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shadows
Member
I think a small part of how EV sets stuff is because the squad is either full of lazy prima donnas like Pique, Suarez etc who cant be benched or the incompetent ones the president/past coach dumped on him like Gomes etc..I get it EV is to blame for stuff like Roma exit where he didn't respond to the ongoing game plus he doesn't change up much in general as well..But overall our squad has been shit for quite a while as well except Messi...WE actually need either a coach who will whip everyone into action(the lazy ones like Pique etc) plus get rid of like 6+ rubbish players we got..
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Well, from my view, NOT ALL 442s are the same.
You know that I love SOME stronger players, some defending etc.
In the first part of a season, we usually played:
Luis-Messi
Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi-Paulinho
Alba-Umtiti-Pique-Roberto
Against Roma, we DID play 442, but it was suddenly:
Iniesta-Rakitic-Busi-winger Roberto
plus Semedo in defense.
So, someone can say that it is the same, but it isn't.
In the first part of a season, we played 4 central midfielders.
Iniesta played on the left, but he was still: a central midfielder who is just playing slightly more towards left.
On the right side we had Paulinho/Rakitic or Gomes who are also: central midfielders who played at the right side of a midfield.
But no matter if you put Raki on the left, right or in the middle, he is still a central midfielder with both his attacking and defensive off the ball movement.
So, our defense had 4 central midfielders plus 4 defenders in the first part of a season.
And we were conceding extremely rarely.
What happened later?
Suddenly we had Dembele as a RW or a RM. On paper, someone could say: it is the same if you have Dembele or Rakitic/Paulinho as a right midfielder.
Well, it isn't the same. That is a totally different universe.
Dembele is a winger and he plays close to a touchline, while Raki/Paulinho/Gomes play centrally even when they are Rcms in a 442.
So, Dembele is both: a winger and he moves differently, plus he doesn't know how to defend.
The same was in Roma's match, we dropped Paulinho/Gomes for Roberto as a right winger.
He hogged the touchline and we basically played with a 3 men midfield plus Roberto hogging a touchline.
I am not saying that 442 is perfect, but obviously EV's 442 with workhorses worked better for EV than this new thing from the 2nd part of a season.
Look at the first part of a season:
2:0 Betis
2:0 Alaves
5:0 Espanyol
3:0 Juventus
2:1 Getafe
6:1 Eibar
3:0 Girona
1:0 Sporting
3:0 Las Palmas
1:1 Atletico
3:1 Olympiacos
2:0 Malaga
3:0 Murcia
2:0 Bilbao
0:0 Olympiacos
2:1 Sevilla
3:0 Leganes
0:0 Juventus
1:1 Valencia
5:0 Murcia
2:2 Celta
2:0 Sporting
2:0 Villareal
4:0 Deportivo
3:0 Real etc
In the first 45 matches of a season (AFTER Supercup matches), we had:
30 clean sheets (66% of matches)
13 times conceded 1 goal
2 times conceded 2 goals (Celta and Sociedad)
So, in the first 45 matches, we conceded only 17 goals
Then, in the last 11 matches, when we started to play both Messi, Coutinho, Luis, Dembele, Iniesta etc, or at least, we had Dembele and Coutinho compared to a 1st part of a season when we didn't have them:
11 matches:
1 clean sheet
4 times conceded 1 goal
4 times conceded 2 goals
1 time conceded 3 goals (Roma)
1 time conceded 5 goals (Levante)
So, in the first 45 matches, when:
1. Roberto was usually a RB
2. when we played 442 with Iniesta-Raki-Busi-Paulinho/Gomes. Or in the worst case: Vidal as a RM and Roberto as a RB in some matches. Ok, Vidal is a winger, but he is a way better defender than Dembele, for example.
3. when we didn't have Coutinho and Dembele:
= we conceded 17 goals in 45 matches
And had 30 clean sheets in 45 matches.
After moving to 433 or 442 with wingers Dembele/Coutinho instead of a CM playing as a RCM:
11 matches:
20 goals conceded in 11 matches, lol.
So, in the last 11 matches we conceded more goals than in the first 45 matches (20:17 goals).
Clean sheets: 30 out of 45 turning into 1 out of 11 matches.
Ok, I know that there are some other factors like players losing their motivation lately, but still: you can see that EV's defensive 442 with 4 Cms was working way better than current 442 with Dembele or 433.
90% of people are only looking at attacking contribution and for majority of them it is: playing Dembele is a no brainer.
Well, at least in EV's system, NOT playing Dembele or wingers is actually a no brainer, according to stats and our results.
So, I agree with you that EV is probably bad.
But what is worse is that he turned back to a formation and style which brought him results, to please the fans and media (playing Dembele and more attacking players).
If we would have played 442 with Pualinho instead of Roberto in Rome, we probably wouldn't conceded 3 goals since we didn't concede more than 2 goals for 45 matches in a row.
But, EV started to "experiment" in 2-3 matches before Roma and that's it.
He abandoned his system and started to play something new.
Also, I doubt that EV's 442 with 4 true CMs from the beginning of a season would ever concede 5 goals against Levante.
That is more or less impossible since our midfield is extremely strong and defensively oriented in that version of 442.
When you have 4 true CMs, Rakitic has less space to cover, so he is not that bad (if a pitch is 60 meters wide, if you have 3 players in line in 433, each has to cover roughly 20 meters. In 442, each CM has to cover only 15 meters of space. Or, even worse, if Busi plays behind them, then in 433 Iniesta and Rakitic need to cover around 30 meters each. While in 442 with 3 Cms in line and Busi behind, they need to cover "only" 20 meters of width instead of 30 meters of width as in 433.)
Busi has less space to cover also, so you can't outrun him that easily.
Ineista has less space to cover.
Paulinho is in, and also has less space to cover.
While yesterday in 433 we had 3 slow turtles in midfield (each covering 30 meters of width) with Dembele, Luis and Cou barely defending.
Plus, Semedo instead of Roberto as a RB.
Way different story than the beginning of a season.
Imo, 442 is way better in defense than 433.
Even though, 442 lacks in attack.
On the other hand, our 433 is better in attack (even though we suck there often too even in 433), and our midfield is slow (3 turtles) and defending is a like a horror show.
When you sum everything up, imo, our current team was way better in 442.
But that will mean: no Dembele, so people will get angry.
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xXKonan
Senior Member
This squad has some dross in it but at the same time you feel even against Levante we could play better than we should even if Messi is out.
Defense was shite but what made me mad the most is just how Shambolic the Midfield and Suarez was. Our Midfield has issues but fuck me man these three were like on a sunday drive and easily let Levante stroll right through.
I mean some people are skeptical of Coutinho in the Midfield but screw it I'm willing to take that chance. at least he offers more movement and Creativity and is willing to take the initiative. Iniesta-Busi-Rakitic have been untouchable this season same with Suarez which allows them to do what the please.
Valverde just doesn't strike me as a guy who's willing to put these guys in line.
Defense was shite but what made me mad the most is just how Shambolic the Midfield and Suarez was. Our Midfield has issues but fuck me man these three were like on a sunday drive and easily let Levante stroll right through.
I mean some people are skeptical of Coutinho in the Midfield but screw it I'm willing to take that chance. at least he offers more movement and Creativity and is willing to take the initiative. Iniesta-Busi-Rakitic have been untouchable this season same with Suarez which allows them to do what the please.
Valverde just doesn't strike me as a guy who's willing to put these guys in line.
Joan
Well-known member
There's Barca style and there's Pep style. We for sure couldn't replicate his era but by Barca style people usually consider possession football, short, technical players and 433. There are variations, of course, but you get the idea.
So, in that context, there is a change of style. Nowadays, we play nowhere as good as in December. What EV is not given credit for is the system he created in the beginning. That's why he's gotten some 'apologists', as they like to say here. It's unimportant whether you liked the system or not, it was there. But, Paulinho's drop in form due to no summer break, need to integrate Dembele, Coutinho and Semedo to an extent made him change the style. And that's where he failed. He's been lost since then.
Now, you can come up with an example and say that 'his' 442 failed us vs. Roma. It's true since it was 442, but, let me make 2 points.
1) no system is universal, Roma played 3 at the back which requires significant change, you need wingers etc. so he failed with the starting lineup AND substitutions (that's why I say he's lost)
2)the other problem vs. Roma was lack of physicality in the midfield, we were eaten alive since there wasn't Paulinho and Roberto wasn't playing as a midfielder (rather close to the sideline)
shadows
Member
Well agree.. part of the problem against Roma was that EV saw the problems but didn't make a change..that game could've seen Iniesta subbed at HT plus a few more changes to inject pace considering our midfield was ineffective and overrun..but EV did none..same happened against Levante..He was reactionless even though we sucked at HT and was lucky to have got a goal..I get it some players are shit but we do have some decent talents off the bench like Denis Paulinho and Dembele..it doesn't have to be Gomes or Vidal or Digne
Joan
Well-known member
I still try to explain it to myself. Everyone saw the problem that night but he did nothing.
There were some matches earlier this season when he made good substitutions and changed the tempo. But he failed to do the same vs. Roma. There are 2 possibilities, he might've been lucky and in fact doesn't have a clue about changing the outcome of the game OR he had a mental block in Rome. To be frank, I don't know what's worse.
Last night he didn't have much to change. They sit back and wait for counters. The only player besides Messi in the squad who can break the bus from distance is Coutinho. We couldn't cross even if our life depended on it. I'm sure we need a plan B, tall back-up striker on the bench. But, he could've brought Paulinho in, at least. His heading is decent.
MTL_Barca
Well-known member
The matches with many conceded goals were picked out as examples for Valverde playing more "barca style" so naturally roma comes to mind right? Same as Levante. It's not like we conceded 3-5 goals every 2nd week so the examples are limited. So if someone picks them out they should fit.
Just because he played some of our other players doesn't make it Barca style. If Pep has his own thing then probably Cruyff has too etc but i don't see what EV eas doing as Barca style at all. It never looked like he had ANY plan how to keep possession properly, how to press etc he just plays like most of la liga coaches there is no special adjustment making it more or less barca like.
He played more offensive players and switched formations yes, of course you can call that a "change of style" since it is certainly something different than 4-4-2 with 4 CMs in midfield but at least for me that doesn't automatically make it Barca style. You could just say Valverde had no clue what to do with the offensive players and his 4-4-2 worked well for him (as far as results go) this season without bringing in the term "barca style".
If barca style is really as easy as playing mediocre looking boring football in a 4-3-3 formation with more or less technical strong players then i don't understand our obsession with former players because that's something every average la liga coach can do.
Problem in part is the lack of a sub on the bench. Who do you bring for iniesta or rakitic? Gomes? Denis? Paulinho is a different profile. When you don't have any competition and the league is already done, there is a big chance players would become complacent.
Imagine if Suarez was benched for say Paco or Dembele and we struggled to score, it would be the same fraudverde stupid selection leaving your main striker on the bench.
Fucking look at Madrid. They have isco, lucas and asensio as quality attacking subs to bring on and at the very least kovacic in midfield. Tell me one sub we have of that quality that can come on for a starter with little impact on the quality of the team. Dembele was injured half the season and Coutinho was brought in cup tied
henias
New member
You are right, no system is a one size fits all but for Valverde, he just seems very tactically inept and cannot adapt to the situation or circumstances.
He seems to just pick certain lineups because of the score and not based on what opponents we are facing.
Worst of all, he tend to crumble under pressure and doesnt make useful subs on time. Against Levante, he brought on Paco as a wide player, but for what? Suarez is still hampering the attack and getting in the way of Coutinho trying to find space.
Him switching to a 433 doesnt mean he is playing a "Barca style".
It just seems like he doesnt have a plan and players dont know what to do. I dont see a sense of direction of what they are trying to achieve, whether is it possession or quick attacking. Under Valverde, we are definitely more held back.
I dont see Valverde utilising pace very well, the players seem to just play in front of the opponents all the time. There's no overlapping runs between fullbacks(they just keep passing back to the midfield for some reason), weak pressing, worst of all, his obsession with Suarez who is a deadweight in front.
He lack that sort of charisma or visionary who can change things and bring forth and execute his clear ideas in style and would usually just take the safest route: a poor and slipshod backup plan (usually by subbing off Dembele or Semedo). Failure to recognise the crux of the problem is in itself is a huge failure.
He will most likely fail again next season, considering how stubborn and obstinate he is.
henias
New member
So you would sub Dembele for Paco? What the hell does Paco offer in place of Dembele?
Sure our subs isnt as good, but he left Dembele on the bench against Roma as well. So you cant really blame no one for leaving your 100M player on the bench and only to bring him in the last 5 mins.
His subs have been very erratic and questionable and he keeps sticking to the belief that Dembele is a liability in defence, but Suarez himself is a liability in most aspects of the game. If the ball cannot be brought forward effectively, there's simply no way we can score either. By subbing off Dembele, you literally kill any chances of us progressing our attack on the right side.
Barcilliant
Senior Member
This guy is a dead man walking. Next season will be his last and it will probably end in tears.
The fish rots from the head. There are many problems at the club. The board and Valverde are chief amongst them. Both the board and Valverde lack courage and the ability to take tough decisions and implement a LONG-TERM VISION of where the club is going.
The fish rots from the head. There are many problems at the club. The board and Valverde are chief amongst them. Both the board and Valverde lack courage and the ability to take tough decisions and implement a LONG-TERM VISION of where the club is going.
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