Ernesto Valverde - V1

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Stoichkov1

New member
DonAndres said:
The league is important and RM did obviously shit the bed there, but it's near impossible to suggest they were going all out to stay in the CDR. Zidane rotated more than half the team and didn't falter even when they were on track to get KO'd. They simply don't care about CDR and haven't for some years now. Whereas we have EV running Iniesta into the ground during these CDR games even tho we made signings specifically to negate that. For what is basically a mickey mouse cup in the grand scheme of things (with RM not trying at all in the CDR, that's essentially what it has become. Barca should win this with like 50% effort at most).

And our way of handling the season is, IMO, absolutely worse than RM and has been for a while. We've had literally only 1 season out of 6 since Pep left where the team didn't SIGNIFICANTLY lose momentum in the 2nd half of the season. Going gung ho in every single competition and not allocating the energy/effort of our team correctly has had bad effects, this 'treble' obsession has had some part in why we've had so many years where the 2nd half of the season is brought with a tired, unfocused squad.

The hierarchy of competitions should ALWAYS be CL>Liga>>>>>>>CDR. And we're in a good position in the league to not have to try too hard there, if you think this limping Atletico side are a legitimate threat you are kidding yourself, there is almost 0 way they maintain as much consistency as us till May. Their next 5 away trips are Sevilla, Barca, Villarreal, RM, and Sociedad. Fat fucking chance they come out of that with all wins or even close to it, La Liga is pretty much a wrap by practically every objective line of thinking there is.

Not keeping the CL in mind when planning for a season and rotating the squad is 1 surefire way to lose the CL. I'm sorry, but no one thinks La Liga is as prestigious/valuable as the CL. Ronaldo would arguably be 3 Balon D'ors short if that really was the case but it isn't.

It isn't conceding La Liga to rest players for the CL. We shouldn't (and don't) have to have the pedal on the gas 100% of the time in La Liga to maintain our healthy lead, that's just not realistic at all. EV has been absolutely wrong in how he's handled this rotation, and our current form is a clear demonstration of that mistake.
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You're wrong.

1) The fact that we've already won the league is not true. Teams like Manchester City or Bayern Munich have already won the league since they have a 16 and 19 points advantage over the second. We have only 7 over Atletico.

Atletico got 55 points in 24 matches, which means they'll finish with 87 points if they keep this pace. Since 2013/14 Atletico finished with 90, 78, 88 and 78 points. So it's not unrealistic to expect that they can get 87/90 points in the end if they have already done so, especially considering that their bad seasons were 2014/15 and 2016/17 when they conceded 29 and 27 goals. This year they conceded 9 in 24, their defence is even better than in 2014 or 2016 when they finished first and third 2 points behind us. If we don't try too hard in the league they'll catch us.

2) RM was forced to prioritize the CL because they lost the league in December, not because they chose to. CL is the most prestigious club competition in the world but every club shoud have as the main target every season the league, not the CL. The CL is decided on small details and luck, even if a team gives the 100% in this competition there's no guarantee they'll win it. Real Madrid in 2013 already lost the league in December, they tried their best to win the CL and they couldn't. It was a
disastrous season for them. If Juanfran didn't miss the penalty in 2016 it would have been another trophyless season for RM.
 
henias

henias

New member
Stoichkov1 said:
You're wrong.

1) The fact that we've already won the league is not true. Teams like Manchester City or Bayern Munich have already won the league since they have a 16 and 19 points advantage over the second. We have only 7 over Atletico.
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Lol. We became 7 because of countless draws and poor form over the month of Jan. Putting too much energy into CDR, yet not rested enough in the league and even have a CL coming up. But then again people will claim every team is a threat that we have to play the starting 11 all the time. There was no point playing our best players when they are so overwhelmed with the cup and league. We're not even sure what surprise Chelsea might pull. But surely they will be a high intensity and physical team and we should be at 100% fitness for that.

There just aren't clear priorities in mind. We are just going gung ho and all out in every match, and the depletion of our energy will surely do more harm than good.
 
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Stoichkov1

New member
henias said:
Lol. We became 7 because of countless draws and poor form over the month of Jan. Putting too much energy into CDR, yet not rested enough in the league and even have a CL coming up. But then again people will claim every team is a threat that we have to play the starting 11 all the time. There was no point playing our best players when they are so overwhelmed with the cup and league. We're not even sure what surprise Chelsea might pull. But surely they will be a high intensity and physical team and we should be at 100% fitness for that.

There just aren't clear priorities in mind. We are just going gung ho and all out in every match, and the depletion of our energy will surely do more harm than good.
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Agree that maybe we should have rotated more in CDR but we have to play our best players in the league every match because otherwise we drop too many points. As I wrote in my post above it's likely Atletico will finish the season with 87/90 points, which means we can't drop more than 14 points from now on.
 
serghei

serghei

Senior Member
DonAndres said:
The league is important and RM did obviously shit the bed there, but it's near impossible to suggest they were going all out to stay in the CDR. Zidane rotated more than half the team and didn't falter even when they were on track to get KO'd. They simply don't care about CDR and haven't for some years now. Whereas we have EV running Iniesta into the ground during these CDR games even tho we made signings specifically to negate that. For what is basically a mickey mouse cup in the grand scheme of things (with RM not trying at all in the CDR, that's essentially what it has become. Barca should win this with like 50% effort at most).

And our way of handling the season is, IMO, absolutely worse than RM and has been for a while. We've had literally only 1 season out of 6 since Pep left where the team didn't SIGNIFICANTLY lose momentum in the 2nd half of the season. Going gung ho in every single competition and not allocating the energy/effort of our team correctly has had bad effects, this 'treble' obsession has had some part in why we've had so many years where the 2nd half of the season is brought with a tired, unfocused squad.

The hierarchy of competitions should ALWAYS be CL>Liga>>>>>>>CDR. And we're in a good position in the league to not have to try too hard there, if you think this limping Atletico side are a legitimate threat you are kidding yourself, there is almost 0 way they maintain as much consistency as us till May. Their next 5 away trips are Sevilla, Barca, Villarreal, RM, and Sociedad. Fat fucking chance they come out of that with all wins or even close to it, La Liga is pretty much a wrap by practically every objective line of thinking there is.

Not keeping the CL in mind when planning for a season and rotating the squad is 1 surefire way to lose the CL. I'm sorry, but no one thinks La Liga is as prestigious/valuable as the CL. Ronaldo would arguably be 3 Balon D'ors short if that really was the case but it isn't.

It isn't conceding La Liga to rest players for the CL. We shouldn't (and don't) have to have the pedal on the gas 100% of the time in La Liga to maintain our healthy lead, that's just not realistic at all. EV has been absolutely wrong in how he's handled this rotation, and our current form is a clear demonstration of that mistake.
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The no1 objective of the team is by definition the one that is 'the most' achievable by doing your best overall, with other factors that depend on luck being at their minimum impact. That is the domestic league. The competition that has the most equality of chances and conditions is the one that is the most likely to provide the best winner. You get to play the same teams as everyone else in the league. So, you won't have a case where one team plays the hardest opponents, and one team just cruises to a final playing Europa League level teams. You can't make the CL the most important objective of the team, because there are too many factors that decide the winner and are not in your control.

Madrid never win the CL in 2016 without that joke of a draw. Absolutely never. They lose to Barca, Bayern in 2 ties. But one thing is to play Barca and Bayern back to back, and another thing is to play Wolfsburg (were 10th place in Bundesliga at the time or so! 10th!!!) and Man City (the shit version, the one that barely made top 4 in England).

So, the hierarcy of the priorities (not to be confused with prestige) each season is League > CL >>>> CDR, simply because you have the certainty that if you play well enough during the season you will win the League. It's the kind of assurance that CL just doesn't give you. The sample is too small, the draws are too important, and the referee has too much influence over a tie.

That being said, I agree that Valverde took some risks overplaying some key players who are older, and not playing talented players in their place, with minimum risks in the league. Not because the League is won, which it clearly isn't (check [MENTION=22493]Stoichkov1[/MENTION] stats, showing AM is so far playing potentially a title winning campaign if we slow down and start wasting points). But because there are some good players in this squad that are stupidly underutilized.
 
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henias

henias

New member
Stoichkov1 said:
Agree that maybe we should have rotated more in CDR but we have to play our best players in the league every match because otherwise we drop too many points. As I wrote in my post above it's likely Atletico will finish the season with 87/90 points, which means we can't drop more than 14 points from now on.
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Like I said best players are humans as well, and fitness and energy levels are crucial, not just solely on picking who to play. What's the point of playing Andres when he was literally so dead against Getafe and Eibar, even Coutinho did showed much more. Iniesta surely could do more rest and certainly the situation could have been handled better. He was clearly exhausted after the Valencia and Espanyol match.

A race isn't about who leads the fastest, but who can last the longest. We can always return to commiting our best XI after we are done with the CL, but not when we have a huge assignment ahead of us.

Teams always seem to catch up on us because they know how much commitment we have and will always take advantage of our exhaustion and us burning out in the second half of the season.

In this area, sad to say Real Madrid have been handling and juggling the situation better.
 
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JamDav1982

Senior Member
Iniesta has started only 3 of the last 6 leagues games and barely plays 70 min most weeks.

He is not being over played in any great way.

Would bet Valverde will start Vidal v Chelsea to try and match Alonso.
 
S

Stoichkov1

New member
henias said:
Like I said best players are humans as well, and fitness and energy levels are crucial, not just solely on picking who to play. What's the point of playing Andres when he was literally so dead against Getafe and Eibar, even Coutinho did showed much more. Iniesta surely could do more rest and certainly the situation could have been handled better. He was clearly exhausted after the Valencia and Espanyol match.

A race isn't about who leads the fastest, but who can last the longest. We can always return to commiting our best XI after we are done with the CL, but not when we have a huge assignment ahead of us.

Teams always seem to catch up on us because they know how much commitment we have and will always take advantage of our exhaustion and us burning out in the second half of the season.

In this area, sad to say Real Madrid have been handling and juggling the situation better.
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If you didn't notice Eibar outplayed us and had more possession even with our best XI. Valverde has been coaching in the spanish league for more than 8 years, he knows which teams are difficult to beat and which are not.

Coutinho's positioning is questionable at times and more importantly he offers too little defensively.
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
Stoichkov1 said:
If you didn't notice Eibar outplayed us and had more possession even with our best XI. Valverde has been coaching in the spanish league for more than 8 years, he knows which teams are difficult to beat and which are not.

Coutinho's positioning is questionable at times and more importantly he offers too little defensively.
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Coutinho doesnt offer less defensively than Iniesta though.

He is hard working presses a lot and gets stuck in.
 
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