Ernesto Valverde - V1

YodaMaster said:

'Cruff/Pep football doesn't work anymore in 2019'.
Past 3 years, RM played the likes of Juventus, Bayern, PSG, Atletico, Liverpool, City,etc. None of these teams were able to beat once RM in CL finals.
First team to beat RM in CL since 2015 ? Ajax Amsterdam, playing the most possible Cruyff style football. The nearest thing to Pep's football today.
Fucking Ajax which doesn't have 1/10 Barca's money and attractive power.

Yet Barca should celebrate Valverde's coward football because 'in 2019, beautiful technical football doesn't work'. Or 'total football won't work without Xavi and Iniesta'. I guess Schone and Von De Beek are Xavi and Iniesta ?

I hope Valverde and workhorse fanboys will shut up for a while with their bullshit theories.

Not so long ago, Barca was THE team that played like Ajax yesterday, except Barca was 5 times better in all aspects.
But today we should accept Valverde's football ? GTFO. I prefer to lose playing Cruyff/Pep football rather than win a CL with EV's pitty tactics. That's why I started supporting Barca in the first place: beautiful football. Plus actually EV's shit football couldn't even get in CL semis, losing in QF against Roma lol.

If you're a Barca fan and you respect and love Barca's history, you simply can't tolerate what we're seeing under Ernesto Valverde.

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i wouldnt use ajax for some kind of example, madrid team gave it all in that competition last years, their best player and main goalscorer left, they were left on benzema and that new kid vinicius in attack, so they cleary werent in the same state as before, they were ready for being knockout, ajax did that, while ajax played great, madrid was even worse.

madrid with their style on form kicked out pep from that competition in a easy way, possession football isnt enough to get you the most from that competition, clear example is how is pep doing there, so i wouldnt use ajax for some kind of example and how to play in CL.


edit: im not defending ernesto here, i want him gone as soon as possible, i just have a feeling how some fans got carried away a bit with ajax yesterday and how possession football do great in CL competition.

vlad said:

i wouldnt use ajax for some kind of example, madrid team gave it all in that competition last years, their best player and main goalscorer left, they were left on benzema and that new kid vinicius in attack, so they cleary werent in the same state as before, they were ready for being knockout, ajax did that, while ajax played great, madrid was even worse.

madrid with their style on form kicked out pep from that competition in a easy way, possession football isnt enough to get you the most from that competition, clear example is how is pep doing there, so i wouldnt use ajax for some kind of example and how to play in CL.


edit: im not defending ernesto here, i want him gone as soon as possible, i just have a feeling how some fans got carried away a bit with ajax yesterday and how possession football do great in CL competition.

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Ajax is the closest thing to what Barca should be. If there's any example for Barça, it is Ajax.

Now, of course people will say 'RM missed CR and Ramos and Zidane'. But that's only an hypothesis. We don't know what would've happen if RM had CR, Zidane and Ramos against Ajax. Maybe RM would have gone through, maybe not.

Fact is: a young team Ajax with so much less money and power, is the team that finally beat unstoppable RM in CL. And they did that by playing Cruyff's total football. Imagine if Ajax had same money and power as RM.

Regarding Pep, he makes mistakes too. The guy is not perfect. But he played RM twice in CL finals, won once and lost once.
His City team (that he built himself) isn't good enough for a CL victory imo. With Bayern, he got to the semis every year, and that's far better than what EV did until now.

Raketa10 said:

I really enjoyed watching Ajax tonight. The amount of running, pressing...WOW! On the other side anyone who watched Ajax saw that Barca can't play like that anymore. To be able to press like that you need to do it with all players while Suarez and Messi can't even press Malaga anymore. I am not defending Valverde but we should really ask ourselves if our old and slow team is capable of playing like we all want Barca to play. If we want to play possessional football we need to press high but are we capable of doing that? I don't think so. Maybe the way we play right now is the only possible way since half of our team is either slow or incapable of pressing and running for 90 min.

To be clear I don't expect from Messi to press for 90 min, I am just saying that in modern football only ONE player can walk while we are defending and 90% of time we have two of them.

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Suarez does a pretty good pressing job actually. If he can't press, get rid of him, simple as that. It's freaking FC Barcelona. That club shouldn't start players who can't do the job. No player should be bigger than the club, there's no place for social purposes here.

Messi played under Pep and Lucho. Their teams used to press with high intensity. Messi can easily play in high pressing teams, he actually shines the most in such teams. So does Busquets btw. Messi will never run like Pedro or Alexis Sanchez, even back in the day he didn't do that. But it's not a problem if you have 10 hard working players + Messi who works a little less hard.

Problem now is that at Barça we have several lazy asses. Get rid of all of them, it's simple as that.

[MENTION=22178]YodaMaster[/MENTION]

Preach. Preach, bro. Saved me some time there. The amount of nonsense that the likes of BBZ are writing lately is something else.

Pep may be finished as a manager tbh. Seems to be getting worse and worse in UCL away games

Messigician said:

Pep may be finished as a manager tbh. Seems to be getting worse and worse in UCL away games

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Never felt Pep a great cup manager, he tries to be too smart for his own good sometimes (His time at bayern/City vs pool etc).
He's one of the best ever when it comes to the league though.

Would still take him over anyone.

Leo_Messi said:

[MENTION=22178]YodaMaster[/MENTION]

Preach. Preach, bro. Saved me some time there. The amount of nonsense that the likes of BBZ are writing lately is something else.

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Another extreme Pepista.

And yet a guy is mentioning a historical/political/cultural Catalan moto mes que un club with ideas about winning trophies with an attacking football.

He says that we won all Cls with Cruijff's style, yet our only recent trophy without Messi, in 2006, after 14 years of being knocked out by everyone with Cruijff's style, we won after Rijkaard abandoned too attacking minded and naive Cruijff's ideas and played with 2 out of 3 out of workhorses Edmilson/Motta/Van Bommel in Cl knockout rounds.
Plus with a CB Oleguer as a Rb, and always with 1 or 2 out of Etoo/Larsson in a team.
And basically we had:
Strong defense with 3Cbs, 1 fullback and 2 workhorses.
A lot of height and muscles.
A lot od technique and joga bonita also.
Attack which can score from possession, counters and headers, unlike today.
We had some fighting spirit and only 1 guy in a team won a Cl (Deco), so everyone were young and motivated, unlike today.

We have yet to witness someone winning a Cl in Barca's somewhat naive too attacking style WITHOUT Messi in a team.

When that will happen at least 2 times, I'll jump on your board and agree with you that it is possible.
But probably, there won't be need for that.

If you'll again mention Real, they played more direct than us, with Casemiro and with 2 or 3 attackers who can score goals with feet and head.
They could score goals (until this season) from possession, counters and headers, unlike us.

That is quite different to ideas seen here (for example Malcom-Messi-Dembele, De Jong-Arthur-Alena lineup).
Again, you can score goals only through the ground, for example.
Which is quite problematic in Cl knockout rounds on a larger sample of matches.

Who ever says that RM got knocked out because they faced a "Cruijff " type of team instead of Liverpool/Juve Atletico need his head checked
Ajax has beaten a RM without Zidane (the top rated manager in past half decade) , without Ramos, without Marcelo with a shadow of Modric/Bale/Isco.
This isn't same team that played in last 3 years, far from it. Juve or Atletico would have humiliated same Madrid side if they have played them in those years.
There is nothing to conclude from this fixture except this RM side is absolute shit, and even then if they had their past luck they would have scored at least another 2-3 goals instead of hitting bar twice and putting ball everywhere but outside of goal.
This is like 2013 and saying Pep football exposed and was never good because he never faced a Heynckes Bayern

I wouldn't say last season's Madrid was very close to 2017 Madrid either. They should have lost vs both Juve and Bayern. With VAR they would've been kicked out.

Madrid as a team peaked in 2017 (a pretty clear decline started very soon after Cardiff moment). That is the reference point to which this current version is an absolute joke in comparison with. Otherwise, there are similarities between this Ajax game and the 0-3 at home to Juve (prior to the generous penalty), or 1-2 to Leganes, or 0-3 with Barcelona from last year, with Zidane that is. Ronaldo helped hide many things, but they were clearly there.

2017 was their best year no doubt, 2016 & 2018 was a team ready to take advantage of their opportunities and luck they had. Still far better than current version

khaled_a_d said:

2017 was their best year no doubt, 2016 & 2018 was a team ready to take advantage of their opportunities and luck they had. Still far better than current version

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I'd have it 2017 >> 2016 >>> 2018 > 2019.

I'd say there was a consistent growth from the moment Zidane took over, which peaked at Cardiff and started a steep decline soon after. 2018 was a fluke in CL. Normally, that's a trophyless season 8 times out of 10 even for Madrid.

BBZ8800 said:

Another extreme Pepista.

And yet a guy is mentioning a historical/political/cultural Catalan moto mes que un club with ideas about winning trophies with an attacking football.

He says that we won all Cls with Cruijff's style, yet our only recent trophy without Messi, in 2006, after 14 years of being knocked out by everyone with Cruijff's style, we won after Rijkaard abandoned too attacking minded and naive Cruijff's ideas and played with 2 out of 3 out of workhorses Edmilson/Motta/Van Bommel in Cl knockout rounds.
Plus with a CB Oleguer as a Rb, and always with 1 or 2 out of Etoo/Larsson in a team.
And basically we had:
Strong defense with 3Cbs, 1 fullback and 2 workhorses.
A lot of height and muscles.
A lot od technique and joga bonita also.
Attack which can score from possession, counters and headers, unlike today.
We had some fighting spirit and only 1 guy in a team won a Cl (Deco), so everyone were young and motivated, unlike today.

We have yet to witness someone winning a Cl in Barca's somewhat naive too attacking style WITHOUT Messi in a team.

When that will happen at least 2 times, I'll jump on your board and agree with you that it is possible.
But probably, there won't be need for that.

If you'll again mention Real, they played more direct than us, with Casemiro and with 2 or 3 attackers who can score goals with feet and head.
They could score goals (until this season) from possession, counters and headers, unlike us.

That is quite different to ideas seen here (for example Malcom-Messi-Dembele, De Jong-Arthur-Alena lineup).
Again, you can score goals only through the ground, for example.
Which is quite problematic in Cl knockout rounds on a larger sample of matches.

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With all due respect I did not even read the discussion. Just tired of the failed narrative that you are flooding the forum with lately. The endless talk about cm's, kg's , workhorses and other nonsense being the solution to every problem while disregarding what is the ethos and philosophy of our club which is the Cruyff/Michels model that has made us the most successful team in Europe in the past 30 years based on trophies won, dynasties created, playing style and legacy. I repeat nobody has done better than us in those departments. No single club. So something must be right about this model that I am defending and which you disregard time and time again. Something to think about.

You might not like this philosophy but this is what this club has been about for most of the past 30 years. Like any other with ups and downs. Nothing is perfect after all. Expecting us to play like Inter, Atlético, Juventus etc. won't ever happen nor should it happen. Or even RM without a defined style and with new sporting models depending on the manager hence them failing to be consistent in the league which is the tournament of consistency. While succeeding in arbitrary knockout competitions like CL where a calculated, defensive and counterattacking approach is easier to succeed with than an attacking, daring and possession style football approach.

Hence my talk of us needing a different approach in the CL since I joined back in December of 2014. Hence why my "ideal" manager is a mixture of the virtues of Pep and those of Simeone. Far from being an "extreme Pepista" as you are foolishly blabbering about.
You are part of one extreme and users (barely here) that cannot see any faults in Pep's approach are the other extreme. Two side of the same coin.

I am not a "extreme Pepista". Rating Pep highly as a manager (something every sane person should do rather than inventing nonsense of his somehow failing in Bayern and City or comparing him with Pellegrini or Mancini ) and being grateful for his service to the club as a player, manager, ball boy and you name it is one thing (natural dare I say for any genuine fan of our club) and a completely different thing is to try to belittle him and his style. The same style that is synonomous with our club and everything that we stand for.

Yes, I like Pep and his football philosophy a lot. Don't see a problem with that at all. Fairly natural as a fan of the club. While you seem to like the likes of Mourinho, Paulinho, Rabiot and what not. Different football philosophies it seems. Just picked the wrong club to follow.

I have also noticed that when countered you often have nothing to say and just leave debates. As recently in the Puig thread and the Rakitic one. When the opposition is writing facts and sane opinions that are backed up with sane arguments that put your narrative apart you disappear to talk about the same old thing in another thread. I have seen you doing it with 10-15+ users already since December. Something to think about.

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], Barcelona only played with Van Bommel / Edmilson because Xavi was injured around that time IIRC. Normally, both Xavi and Deco featured in that team, along with Ronaldinho, Eto'o and Giuly.

Xavi - CM
Deco - AM
Edmilson - DM

Normally, Barcelona can't play with 2 DMs because it is hard to have a good build-up in possession with 2 out of 3 players in midfield who are more used to destroy and do tackles than to build attacks. Cue to the situation now when we try to create with Rakitic, Busi and Vidal. It just doesn't work. You seem to not understand the place Barcelona has in world football.

Sorry, but Barcelona is absolutely not a 'do everything to win no matter what' club. We plan to play great football and carry that to big titles. Which we've done pretty damn well in the last decades.

So, let's get something straight here. The plan is not to turn into Atletico Madrid or Juventus, hoping we can suffer our way into a CL final by defending and holding on for dear life, hanging on slim leads.

The plan is to bring back our way of playing and win the CL with it. This is the reason why we're signing 150m. players. Not to turn into Atletico and put everyone behind the ball. We can do that with much less investments.

BBZ8800 said:

Another extreme Pepista.

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You called me a troll/bully and here you are hurling juvenile insults. Right back at ya stats whore.

BBZ8800 said:

We have yet to witness someone winning a Cl in Barca's somewhat naive too attacking style WITHOUT Messi in a team.

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You sound like those flat earth guys who say "where's the non evidence that earth isn't flat?"

We won most of our CL's with attacking Cruyffian football. It's amazing how you'll throw out BS like "but without Messi", to disregard stats which prove your agenda is complete baloney. Also conveniently ignoring the spectacular failure in CL against Roma trying your brand of football.

You expect us to play like Atletico/Juve with players like Messi and upcoming signings like De Jong who aren't suited to that philosophy at all?

I know you'll never answer this because you have no comeback- Why don't you support teams like Atleti/Juve/Chelsea/Madrid which suit your vision of ideal football? Why do you complain that Barca doesn't play that style of football when it's clear that'll never happen

BBZ8800 said:

When that will happen at least 2 times, I'll jump on your board and agree with you that it is possible.
But probably, there won't be need for that.

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Winning CLs is a rare occurence. Winning 2 CLs with any kind of philosophy without Messi might take a decade or more. How convenient

While we're at it, i refuse to believe black holes don't have bitter little ponies inside them taking revenge against the universe, until the time we physically go inside one and take photos.

BBZ8800 said:

If you'll again mention Real, they played more direct than us, with Casemiro and with 2 or 3 attackers who can score goals with feet and head.
They could score goals (until this season) from possession, counters and headers, unlike us.

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I don't blame you for not knowing how lucky Madrid were with ref decisions/penalties/howlers from opposition GKs since you don't watch matches and just check whoscored. Not to mention Madrid never had a Cruyffs style philosophy (or any philosophy for that matter, other than being cross merchants). Barca will never be cross merchants and if you can't digest that i'd advise you to stop wasting your time with Barca

BBZ8800 said:

That is quite different to ideas seen here (for example Malcom-Messi-Dembele, De Jong-Arthur-Alena lineup).
Again, you can score goals only through the ground, for example.
Which is quite problematic in Cl knockout rounds on a larger sample of matches.

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How many non ground goals are we scoring with our current setup under your dear Valgreen? How many headed/set piece goals will we be sacrificing by playing Malcom-Messi-Dembele. Why do you support Valmierda if he isn't signing the players with the profile you want. (Big, strong, 30 year olds who are beasts at headers?)

I'm not expecting you to reply anyway. But dressing you down and exposing your stupid agenda never gets old

BBZ8800 said:

Another extreme Pepista.

And yet a guy is mentioning a historical/political/cultural Catalan moto mes que un club with ideas about winning trophies with an attacking football.

He says that we won all Cls with Cruijff's style, yet our only recent trophy without Messi, in 2006, after 14 years of being knocked out by everyone with Cruijff's style, we won after Rijkaard abandoned too attacking minded and naive Cruijff's ideas and played with 2 out of 3 out of workhorses Edmilson/Motta/Van Bommel in Cl knockout rounds.
Plus with a CB Oleguer as a Rb, and always with 1 or 2 out of Etoo/Larsson in a team.
And basically we had:
Strong defense with 3Cbs, 1 fullback and 2 workhorses.
A lot of height and muscles.
A lot od technique and joga bonita also.
Attack which can score from possession, counters and headers, unlike today.
We had some fighting spirit and only 1 guy in a team won a Cl (Deco), so everyone were young and motivated, unlike today.

We have yet to witness someone winning a Cl in Barca's somewhat naive too attacking style WITHOUT Messi in a team.

When that will happen at least 2 times, I'll jump on your board and agree with you that it is possible.
But probably, there won't be need for that.

If you'll again mention Real, they played more direct than us, with Casemiro and with 2 or 3 attackers who can score goals with feet and head.
They could score goals (until this season) from possession, counters and headers, unlike us.

That is quite different to ideas seen here (for example Malcom-Messi-Dembele, De Jong-Arthur-Alena lineup).
Again, you can score goals only through the ground, for example.
Which is quite problematic in Cl knockout rounds on a larger sample of matches.

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Just read first few lines...

'Mes que un club' developed several meanings throughout time. I wasn't speaking of inital meaning. I wrote 'That's one of the many reasons why Barça is 'Mes que un club'.' But you can keep on pretending and faking if you like... A disguised Stoke City fan like you dear BBZ won't give me lessons about the history of FC Barcelona.

Rijkaard's Barca was perfectly based on Cruyff model. Rijkaard's Barca was less extreme than Pep's 2011 Barca, but it was still Cruyff model football. Actually Cruyff is the one guy who pushed for Rijkaard to become Barca's coach lol. Know your facts buddy. If you want a comparison, 2006 Barca was more like Lucho's Barca. One thing is sure: it had nothing to do with EV's shitty Barca.

And get out of here with your imaginary 'Edmilson-Motta-Van Bommel' midfield. First, Motta is a Masia graduate, if you ever watched this guy play, he was nearly a jugon, the most similar DM to Busquets in the last decade. As [MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION] wrote it above: Xavi and Deco were the starters before Xavi got injured. Finally, I like how you completely ignore Iniesta's contribution in that season. Iniesta played a huge role in 2006 CL win, he was the main midfield actor in the final game against Arsenal in Paris.

Eto'o/Larsson ? Lmao. Eto'o and Larsson were fucking class footballers. Eto'o is probably the greatest number9 in Barca's history. Why are you mentioning these dudes ? As if they were Lukaku/Giroud style strikers.