Ernesto Valverde - V1

henias · Jan 29, 2018

For now he is a little too rigid, he rarely changes his tactics after halftime and usually just rotate the fullbacks even though the main issue was the mess in midfield. Have been saved by Messi too many times this season and really should have lost this game. Personally, 4231 with Rakitic and Paulinho as pivots is a dangerous formation, Paulinho rushed up too much, he was awful but kept playing him without switching up tactics, he simply couldnt brush off the need for a "physical mentality" even though there's zero control in midfield.

Certain rectification he could have made after halftime:

1. Coutinho should be move to the LM or RW role, him and Messi were crowding the centre free-role too much, clashing with each other and led to constant dispossession. Clearly looks uncomfortable in that position as well.

2. Sub off Paulinho for Roberto, Paulinho was simply atrocious, his touches and control were abysmal, rushed up too high the box, should never ever take up the pivot role.

3. Iniesta should take up the RCM role alongside Rakitic, Roberto for the RM role, Semedo to cover the two of them.

Don't have a plan B at times is one of the flaws EV has, defensively and organisation he has been great but when it comes to attacking tactics, he's been clueless at times. Needs to improve in this area and cant really always depend on Messi or Suarez to save Barcelona time and time again.

FCBfan22 · Jan 29, 2018

henias said:
For now he is a little too rigid, he rarely changes his tactics after halftime and usually just rotate the fullbacks even though the main issue was the mess in midfield. Have been saved by Messi too many times this season and really should have lost this game. Personally, 4231 with Rakitic and Paulinho as pivots is a dangerous formation, Paulinho rushed up too much, he was awful but kept playing him without switching up tactics, he simply couldnt brush off the need for a "physical mentality" even though there's zero control in midfield.

Certain rectification he could have made after halftime:

1. Coutinho should be move to the RM or RW role, him and Messi were crowding the centre free-role too much, clashing with each other and led to constant dispossession. Clearly looks uncomfortable in that position as well.

2. Sub off Paulinho for Roberto, Paulinho was simply atrocious, his touches and control were abysmal, rushed up too high the box, should never ever take up the pivot role.

3. Iniesta should take up the RCM role alongside Rakitic, Roberto for the RM role, Semedo to cover the two of them.

Don't have a plan B at times is one of the flaws EV has, defensively and organisation he has been great but when it comes to attacking tactics, he's been clueless at times. Needs to improve in this area and cant really always depend on Messi or Suarez to save Barcelona time and time again.

This reminds me of Dembele's last game beore the injury, where Messi was telling him constantly to stay on the wing.

MessiCam · Jan 29, 2018

The problem is not Dembele/Messi or Coutinho/Messi. The problem is Suarez/Messi... The need for both Suarez and Messi to play centrally has always been the bottleneck (it was for Lucho too). Valverde made it work with the 4-4-2 before Coutinho and with Dembele's injury but now that Coutinho is here, Dembele on the mend and Iniesta performing at a high level he will have even more headaches than in the beginning of the season.

1. Suarez plays as a left inside forward (he drops form), Coutinho plays as the 8 and Dembele as RW. Iniesta is left in the cold.
2. Iniesta stays put, Coutinho plays LW, Suarez as 9 and Messi as RW (exposes us defensively again).Dembele is left in the cold.
3. Coutinho plays 8, Dembele LW, Suarez as 9 and Messi as RW (again we have defensive issues). Iniesta is left in the cold.
4. 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho LW, Messi CAM, Dembele RW, Suarez 9. Iniesta and one of Rakitic/Paulinho left out in the could

Unless you play Iniesta as your 6 there is just no way you get all your best players on the pitch at the same time but if you remove either of Suarez/Messi then the problem goes away completely. It's going to be fun...

henias · Jan 29, 2018

MessiCam said:
The problem is not Dembele/Messi or Coutinho/Messi. The problem is Suarez/Messi... The need for both Suarez and Messi to play centrally has always been the bottleneck (it was for Lucho too). Valverde made it work with the 4-4-2 before Coutinho and with Dembele's injury but now that Coutinho is here, Dembele on the mend and Iniesta performing at a high level he will have even more headaches than in the beginning of the season.

1. Suarez plays as a left inside forward (he drops form), Coutinho plays as the 8 and Dembele as RW. Iniesta is left in the cold.
2. Iniesta stays put, Coutinho plays LW, Suarez as 9 and Messi as RW (exposes us defensively again).Dembele is left in the cold.
3. Coutinho plays 8, Dembele LW, Suarez as 9 and Messi as RW (again we have defensive issues). Iniesta is left in the cold.
4. 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho LW, Messi CAM, Dembele RW, Suarez 9. Iniesta and one of Rakitic/Paulinho left out in the could

Unless you play Iniesta as your 6 there is just no way you get all your best players on the pitch at the same time but if you remove either of Suarez/Messi then the problem goes away completely. It's going to be fun...

Very well put, too many attacking powerhouses can be a hassle instead. It really takes up Messi's free role and he got dispossessed so many times yesterday. And EV has a tendency to crowd the midfield, be it 442 or 4231 it's not looking safe at all and played so high up the opponents field with 2 full attacking fullbacks, any counter would slice up our defence with just one simple pass. It was a mess.

I think Iniesta should play a deeper RCM role, as a 6 is fine and just drop Paulinho altogether. Coutinho as a LW or LM is fine, but he will need to go forward and utilise the flank. Coutinho in the RM role looks awkward, and he constantly cuts into Messi's space.

I prefer your number 1 option(Iniesta or Coutinho as a sub) or number 2 option (if Dembele is still injured). Number 4 option is a big no for me because of Barcelona tendency to utilise full backs offsensively it will be way too crowded in the central park and will only push Messi further and further backwards.

Still not entirely convinced with EV's attacking tactics, some things that he doesnt quite understand and is always insistent on his same "safe" formations, when in fact they are crazily messed up, provides no stability nor covering at the back. I'm definitely not supporting Griezmann coming to Barcelona and it can cause a real headache for EV, and it can mess up alot of midfield stability. I just hope we can get Arthur and sort out our midfield for that.

MessiCam · Jan 29, 2018

henias said:
Very well put, too many attacking powerhouses can be a hassle instead. It really takes up Messi's free role and he got dispossessed so many times yesterday. And EV has a tendency to crowd the midfield, be it 442 or 4231 it's not looking safe at all and played so high up the opponents field with 2 full attacking fullbacks, any counter would slice up our defence with just one simple pass. It was a mess.

I think Iniesta should play a deeper RCM role, as a 6 is fine and just drop Paulinho altogether. Coutinho as a LW or LM is fine, but he will need to go forward and utilise the flank. Coutinho in the RM role looks awkward, and he constantly cuts into Messi's space.

I prefer your number 1 option(Iniesta or Coutinho as a sub) or number 2 option (if Dembele is still injured). Number 4 option is a big no for me because of Barcelona tendency to utilise full backs offsensively it will be way too crowded in the central park and will only push Messi further and further backwards.

Still not entirely convinced with EV's attacking tactics, some things that he doesnt quite understand and is always insistent on his same "safe" formations, when in fact they are crazily messed up, provides no stability nor covering at the back. I'm definitely not supporting Griezmann coming to Barcelona and it can cause a real headache for EV, and it can mess up alot of midfield stability. I just hope we can get Arthur and sort out our midfield for that.

Valverde is going to have to make a decision on Messi and Suarez. I see no other alternative... Bringing in Griezmann is only going to further complicate things so we best stay clear of that.

The number 2 and 3 options are a complete write-off as far as I'm concerned. Messi as a right wing brings more problems than solutions. We could of course go to a 3 man defence but that takes out an in form Alba.

henias · Jan 29, 2018

MessiCam said:
Valverde is going to have to make a decision on Messi and Suarez. I see no other alternative... Bringing in Griezmann is only going to further complicate things so we best stay clear of that.

The number 2 and 3 options are a complete write-off as far as I'm concerned. Messi as a right wing brings more problems than solutions. We could of course go to a 3 man defence but that takes out an in form Alba.

There's no way EV will drop either one of Messi or Suarez, which is why I was initially doubtful about Coutinho coming to Barca because he was not a direct replacement of Iniesta but a more attacking one.

Number 2 option isnt too far fetched tbh, Messi doesnt need to be a fixed RW, he can take the free role and drop deep and drift inwards and a RM or a RB to cover the RW space. It will be a 4312, basically a 433. But Coutinho must utilise the LW and nt cut into Messi's space.

Realitically, my bet will be:

1. A 433 with Iniesta, Suarez as a RF and Dembele on the wings, Coutinho benched.
2. A 442 if Coutinho comes on, Suarez and Messi upfront, Dembele benched. Iniesta or Paulinho as a RM.

I also cant see Messi, Suarez, Coutinho and Dembele playing together. Too many attacking fronts.

Alik · Jan 29, 2018

MessiCam said:
The problem is not Dembele/Messi or Coutinho/Messi. The problem is Suarez/Messi... The need for both Suarez and Messi to play centrally has always been the bottleneck (it was for Lucho too). Valverde made it work with the 4-4-2 before Coutinho and with Dembele's injury but now that Coutinho is here, Dembele on the mend and Iniesta performing at a high level he will have even more headaches than in the beginning of the season.

1. Suarez plays as a left inside forward (he drops form), Coutinho plays as the 8 and Dembele as RW. Iniesta is left in the cold.
2. Iniesta stays put, Coutinho plays LW, Suarez as 9 and Messi as RW (exposes us defensively again).Dembele is left in the cold.
3. Coutinho plays 8, Dembele LW, Suarez as 9 and Messi as RW (again we have defensive issues). Iniesta is left in the cold.
4. 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho LW, Messi CAM, Dembele RW, Suarez 9. Iniesta and one of Rakitic/Paulinho left out in the could

Unless you play Iniesta as your 6 there is just no way you get all your best players on the pitch at the same time but if you remove either of Suarez/Messi then the problem goes away completely. It's going to be fun...

MessiCam · Jan 29, 2018

henias said:
There's no way EV will drop either one of Messi or Suarez, which is why I was initially doubtful about Coutinho coming to Barca because he was not a direct replacement of Iniesta but a more attacking one.

Number 2 option isnt too far fetched tbh, Messi doesnt need to be a fixed RW, he can take the free role and drop deep and drift inwards and a RM or a RB to cover the RW space. It will be a 4312, basically a 433. But Coutinho must utilise the LW and nt cut into Messi's space.

Realitically, my bet will be:

1. A 433 with Iniesta, Suarez as a RF and Dembele on the wings, Coutinho benched.
2. A 442 if Coutinho comes on, Suarez and Messi upfront, Dembele benched. Iniesta or Paulinho as a RM.

I also cant see Messi, Suarez, Coutinho and Dembele playing together. Too many attacking fronts.

I'm not a fan of a 4-4-2 diamond. It's just too narrow and it really shouldn't be confused with a 4-3-3.

This is the only solution I see in order to find balance. Neither Messi or Suarez can operate anywhere other than a central position. 4-2-3-1 is a recipe for disaster if you ask me and so is playing Iniesta as a RM.

Edit: What is absolutely clear is that a 4-4-2 as well as 4-2-3-1 is not going to work. We can't be playing with 2 central midfielders when not 1 of them is a deep lying playmaker. No sir... Nooooo.

khaled_a_d · Jan 29, 2018

There is no way we drop Suarez, this will harm Messi himself greatly, he need a striker in front of him to get his passes and allow him to operate out of penalty area freely while Suarez is taking the CBs for him.

MessiCam · Jan 29, 2018

khaled_a_d said:
There is no way we drop Suarez, this will harm Messi himself greatly, he need a striker in front of him to get his passes and allow him to operate out of penalty area freely while Suarez is taking the CBs for him.

So what is your solution? Did you see that shit show last night with only 2 central midfielders?

You can remove Iniesta and play Coutinho on the left with Dembele on the right, or anybody else for that matter, and you end up with the same problem. Coutintho is so attack minded that you invariably end up with a asymmetrical 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 (dependent on who picks up the RM position) which causes all sorts of issues defensively.

Anyway, the point I've been trying to make is that the Messi/Suarez issue, as Lucho discovered, is not going away and as many of us have pointed out we're a midfielder short of making a 4-2-3-1 work. All this gets exacerbated if we sign Griezmann.

I also disagree that Messi needs a striker in front of him. He can do his magic with wingers either side of him too but that's not the point. The same goes for Suarez, he doesn't need Messi just behind him.

http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=fy6by2

There's just no balance in the above. Now remove one of Messi or Suarez and build a lineup

khaled_a_d · Jan 29, 2018

1-Coutinho is probably inferior defender than Iniesta, but he isn't a bad one and he will have his time to develop that area in the team in two easier competitions while Iniesta remain starter in CL
2-It isn't a Suarez/Messi issue, It is a Messi issue and has been such issue since early 2016 when he moved into middle to compensate for him getting a bit slower and the fact that he is turning more of a playmaker, he effectively became a second striker that way, I don't see Messi ever turning into false 9 or RW unless we find the fountain of youth and make him 26 again.
And since Messi is the greatest player in the team -by far- the team has to resolve that issue not him. This has been discussed extensively in the forum during the summer and tbh EV has done amazing job solving it
3- EV has been using a bit asymmetrical formation too, but always in a way that doesn't hurt us defensively, that is the area that Lucho-despite being a great coach- has failed to do, probably Neymar being almost exclusively LW and Roberto having a development phase as RB contributed in that too
For a lot of part Iniesta was never really a LM for example but he supports Alba when needed and Alba pace and stamina compensated for lack of winger in front of him Paulinho was never a true AM either but as long as the team was able to protect Roberto the team worked well. And in some cases he used Gerard/Vidal/Paco/Dembele as third attacker and it still worked well. Again as long as full backs remained protected and the team kept balanced
I agree that this will be exacerbated with Griezmann and that is the reason I am against signing him

Zincubus · Jan 29, 2018

Has Valverde apologised for last night's ineptitude on his part .

MessiCam · Jan 29, 2018

khaled_a_d said:
1-Coutinho is probably inferior defender than Iniesta, but he isn't a bad one and he will have his time to develop that area in the team in two easier competitions while Iniesta remain starter in CL
2-It isn't a Suarez/Messi issue, It is a Messi issue and has been such issue since early 2016 when he moved into middle to compensate for him getting a bit slower and the fact that he is turning more of a playmaker, he effectively became a second striker that way, I don't see Messi ever turning into false 9 or RW unless we find the fountain of youth and make him 26 again.
And since Messi is the greatest player in the team -by far- the team has to resolve that issue not him. This has been discussed extensively in the forum during the summer and tbh EV has done amazing job solving it
3- EV has been using a bit asymmetrical formation too, but always in a way that doesn't hurt us defensively, that is the area that Lucho-despite being a great coach- has failed to do, probably Neymar being almost exclusively LW and Roberto having a development phase as RB contributed in that too
For a lot of part Iniesta was never really a LM for example but he supports Alba when needed and Alba pace and stamina compensated for lack of winger in front of him Paulinho was never a true AM either but as long as the team was able to protect Roberto the team worked well. And in some cases he used Gerard/Vidal/Paco/Dembele as third attacker and it still worked well. Again as long as full backs remained protected and the team kept balanced
I agree that this will be exacerbated with Griezmann and that is the reason I am against signing him

The last time Messi was truly a right wing was under Rijkaard. Fact is both need to play in a central position and due to that this side will continue to lack balance. Who's to blame for it is beside the point but it must be resolved...

And no, Valverde didn't solve it, circumstance did with Dembele's injury because up until then it 4-3-3 False 9. Now Coutinho is here, Dembele will join him soon, and Valverde is sitting with the same issues.

Contrary to popular belief a 4-2-3-1 is not going to work with our heavy possession and passing style. No way.

Many on here will laugh at me but the only way to get them all on the field and in their preferred positions while maintaining balance is switching to a 3-4-3 diamond.

Aryagorn · Jan 29, 2018

Zincubus said:
I think he's getting lucky by the guys ( mainly Messi) getting better results than we deserve .

Should have lost tonight maybe but Messi saved us again

I'd be happy to lose Valverde . So many mistakes tonight . I'm half surprised he didn't try Messi at CB

Zincubus said:
Sorry ...I had my doubts about this manager all along and tonight he confirmed that he's just not good enough .

We should have lost tonight ..they could had had three before we scored then Messi as usual saved the day

Zincubus said:
Extreme but I'm so annoyed that our manager can make so many bad decisions ...
How can we trust him in the bug games coming up

Zincubus said:
So has the manager fronted up and come clean on all his mistakes, tonight ??

Zincubus said:
The manager should have a press conference and admit to all the mistakes he made tonight and apologise to Coutinho for setting him up to fail on the right side whilst having Paulinho and Rakitic in the midfield !!

Zincubus said:
Has Valverde apologised for last night's ineptitude on his part .

Oh Jesus!

Barcaman · Jan 29, 2018

Zincubus said:
Has Valverde apologised for last night's ineptitude on his part .

You are getting tiresome and annoying. Seriously.

Ernesto Valverde - V1

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