CL | Round of 16 - 1st Leg: PSG - FC Barcelona 4-0

Lelouch vi Britannia said:

Defense is no longer the big hole in our team and hasn't been for some time now. It's the midfield. All we need in defense is a decent right back.

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Our defense is still a huge issue, we have just one solid WC defender in Pique, the rests are either make shift or unestablished.
Or in the case of Mathieu out right terrible!

9thMode said:

Our defense is still a huge issue, we have just one solid WC defender in Pique, the rests are either make shift or unestablished.
Or in the case of Mathieu out right terrible!

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Our defence isn't the problem at all other than RB.

Umtiti has been a beast this season and Pique/Mascherano good too.

Because our midfield can't control the game and teams now know to just press us high up because we can't pass through them anymore.

This means ridiculous amounts of pressure put on our defence who have handled it pretty well under the circumstances.

On Tuesday we saw a PSG team who punished us for that, but we've seen it all season due to poor tactics and no midfield.

Yep we have no midfield control, no high pressing, look at Bayern's pass map, for example, against Arsenal and compare that to our "super system" where Pique is playing tiki-taka with Umtiti

[tw]831984165369348097[/tw]
[tw]831622546118291456[/tw]

Ghostmaster said:

Yep we have no midfield control, no high pressing, look at Bayern's pass map, for example, against Arsenal and compare that to our "super system" where Pique is playing tiki-taka with Umtiti

[tw]831984165369348097[/tw]
[tw]831622546118291456[/tw]

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Jesus... Picture says 1000 words. It is a tactical catastrophy.

If we play the second leg with the delusion of making a miracle, we are going to be a joke again .. Just play for dignity, with no rush, and try to play a good game. That's all one can hope of this sorry ass team at the moment.

Ghostmaster said:

Yep we have no midfield control, no high pressing, look at Bayern's pass map, for example, against Arsenal and compare that to our "super system" where Pique is playing tiki-taka with Umtiti

[tw]831984165369348097[/tw]
[tw]831622546118291456[/tw]

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That Bayern pass map is a thing of beauty.

Need to get back to this.

DonAK said:

That Bayern pass map is a thing of beauty.

Need to get back to this.

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what hurts most, it's our plan, our conceived thing , being executed to prfection by bayern and PSG. Especially Bayern, Robben and and Costa were so wide, sometimes you would see Costa walking over the touchline.. While Messi is hiding in the middle instead of playing as a winger. And also Neymar - with no discipline - moving to the other side of the pitch (right) or the center .. with no sense of position at all.

despite tactical mistakes etc. I still believe that #1 reason for Paris disaster was fatigue. It was Barça's third match in 6 days with only 2 days of recovery and a trip from the Basque country to Barcelona and then Paris.
PSG played on Friday before the Tuesday match and had no mid-week game. They were well rested and well prepared by their coach who knows Barça well.
Neymar was our best player - he did not play the tough Atletico match.
Let's see how it will go when the teams will meet again in Barcelona: both teams will play on Saturday and then on Wednesday. Enough rest to be ready to play.
However, 4:0 is probably too high a barrier to cross, unless the defence holds up and MSN are in the right mood.

Total-Football said:

While Messi is hiding in the middle instead of playing as a winger. And also Neymar - with no discipline - moving to the other side of the pitch (right) or the center .. with no sense of position at all.

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I don't think this picture is wise.
If Messi played like a true winger, he could rarely score. If both Messi AND Neymar played as a winger, sticking to their respective sides, it would only be Suarez to be in the middle and he is not enough there to be always alone, that could only work for fast counter attacks OR if the midfield were much better and helpful.

Generally speaking I would be actually delighted if Neymar went more and more to the middle or even to the right, because that makes space for Alba, Iniesta or others, could result in more space for the best two attackers. Also in both Messi's and Neymar's case their exceptional talent could be wasted if they played too wide from each other and too close to the line(s).

IMHO their places and movements are the best if their positions don't at all become predictable.
Of course it needs more running from either of them, but don't forget that Neymar already plays that very role in his national team and does it quite effectively.

[MENTION=21136]Potroh[/MENTION]

All right. Before gtting into it let's take a look at the mess upward. Now you most definitely have seen more football than me, but on the course of the last 22 years i have not seen a better football one than the once played by Pep's Barcelona. The closest thing to it was played by Jupp's Bayern, and then the last week i was blessed with some of the best football i have seen by PSG (sad to say) and Bayern (which has pep's footprints all over it, no Ancelotti team has ever played like that). Doing so, i have deduced a couple of things which - not surprisingly - all of those teams have in common.

1- They make the pitch insanely wide when in possession.
2- Paradoxally, they make the pitch very small when dispossessed of the ball
3- A strict and rigid sense of position to the point where it looks mechanical
4- Passing is crucial to this type of football
5- Freedom of the movement (attackers ) in the last third of the pitch

I want to stop a bit at the very first note because that's what you commented about. I disagree. Messi being close to the other players and to the goal doesn't do us any service unless he plays there freely (false 9). I don't know if you have or not watched Bayern vs Arsenal but i highly recommand you do so or at the very least the second half. Our brand (Pep's) of Football was done to perfection. Both Costa and Robben (who are extreamly gifted dribblers ) were so wide sometimes they were walking over the touchline. Being there, the whole bloc of Arsenal has to disperse in order to chase them, and by quick passing and movement Bayern with their talented squad had no difficulty literally passing them to death with quick mouvement from one side of the pitch to the other, and then penetrate at the right moment with precision. Now i'm not saying Messi or Neymar should freeze there , but rather start there and allow themselves to attack freely only when the right moment present itself.

I could not explain this system better than Henry, a player who has taken part of it. And i highly suggest you to look where Henry AND Messi are standing at the start of the attack.

[youtube]UFXQh74WCoE[/youtube]

One would say, hey, messi played there (holding hands with suarez in the middle ) and scored such.. But then again i would say against which team ? Because everytime we played a decent team this season, messi was invisible. And largely because of his position rather than his teammates. No matter how average our midfield is, had messi played as a winger he would have definitely seen the ball more often. For messi to score 10 goals or 50, i doesn't interest me personally, messi playing away from the goal is not a problem if this is going to offer us a real shot at the trophies.

Of course this is just a small part of the discussion, like many here stated, our problems are too much to enumerate in one comment or even page. Like the fact of being outrun by 8 to 10 Km by game, or why at the slighest chance we give the ball to stegen instead of actually playing with balls and try to oppose the pressing with grace in midfield, why are we so weak mentally and many many other stuff.

Edit : Forgot to mention that Henry ( in the same punditry) said he was subbed off right after scoring a goal ! reason : moving from his position to the opposite one ( Like Neymar does sometimes )

Total-Football said:

1- They make the pitch insanely wide when in possession.
2- Paradoxally, they make the pitch very small when dispossessed of the ball
3- A strict and rigid sense of position to the point where it looks mechanical
4- Passing is crucial to this type of football
5- Freedom of the movement (attackers ) in the last third of the pitch

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Well, I do love intelligent discussions on the subject and I like what you have just said, even if I partially disagree.
I did watch the Bayern game live and I think I know what you are talking about. Also I agree on many of your points. Nevertheless there are big "but"s for me, lemme list a few:

- Attacking tactics should be adapted to the available material of players and not vice versa.
- Neymar is a pretty much two-footed player, so is Suarez. But Messi depends so largely on his left foot, that playing him on the extreme right doesn't bring too much good, unless (as he always does) finally he dribbles INWARDS to use his left foot. That's a factor which ties his positional concerns ("false 9" or otherwise).
- When Alves played for the team he could do what was needed on the right, could even score important goals, but now the situation is diametrically opposite, having nobody useful on the right.
- What Henry mentions in your quotation is just the opposite compared to what he himself mentions when talking about the time of their attacking, when he rightly says that Pep's concern was to bring the ball in to the last third (usually by midfielders) and THEN the attackers had their complete freedom to do what was needed.

By saying just that, let me do a bad comparison: I don't think Suarez would be worse than Cavani, neither I think Cavani was way better. They are somewhat similar. Both Suarez and Cavani are the ones, who need considerable space for themselves, which may not count when hard balls are arched to the middle, as Cavani is a much better header than Suarez.
But at the PSG game Cavani could show his positive part, whereas Suarez was ineffective. Why? Because of the midfield or rather the lack of it on Barca's side.

The pitch being "insanely wide" as you put it, serves well for different teams and player characteristics but the favorable factor for the MSN is that when in good form and having a good day, they are also capable to play against 8-9 defenders lined up. They do that with the weapon of their unpredictability and Messi's and Neymar's exceptional dribbling skills.

Furthermore:
- Playing with wingers on the wings, which I see as the typical English football, serves when one has that type of players, hence for Barca I definitely prefer the type of "Latino" football (at least in attacking) and I'm also certain that either Messi or Neymar would have extreme difficulties in the Premier Leage. It's just not for them, specially with the quantity of physicality that being played there.
- When the MSN are in good form, they are unstoppable, regardless the actual tactics, but this needs to correspond to the form of the midfielders.
- Barca has tremendous problems in the right side this season, neither Roberto nor the daily Gomes, Denis, Rafinha or Arda are good enough to serve there, Rakitic is not great but all right in his good form. Until that problem is solved somehow, Barca and the MSN will undoubtedly suffer each and every game and by changing the attacking movements or formations will not ever help to fill that existing gap.

The PSG game - before all other factors - showed fatigue, tiredness, Messi's worst day in months, huge tactical mistakes in midfield and defense, also the coach's stubborn mentality towards his own ideas.
If I were the coach that day, I'd have done this:
- Pulling off Gomes after 20 minutes. Rakitic is usually much better covering Messi, if he loses the ball. Pulling off Roberto, regardless who comes in his place. Telling the defenders to concentrate more on the actual players, rather than mere territory and Busquests to go deeper back.
We still would have lost that day but it would have been a manageable 0:2 or something like that...

It's totally unconscious to let Verratti with 5/6 meters to pass the ball.

For the 2nd Leg, even if Verratti is taken by 2 players, Thiago Motta will offer an excellent solution. Barca will score but Paris too.

[MENTION=21136]Potroh[/MENTION]

I like everything you said about the technical aspect. However, you mentioned that styles of play depend majorly on the personnel at one's disposal. Well, before Guardiola took over man city they used to play this quick direct football. But now, despite not so much change of players, and with some very average players in certain positions (especially fullbacks ), he still managed to implement the cornerstone on which he's most likely going to build the type of football i was talking about (you could already see a glimpse of it when they played us in the camp nou this season). Then you would probably say they are not top of the league .

I think what you have described exhaustively is the pragmatic school of thought : maximizing the benefits, rationalizing the ressources, and limiting the expenses; thus adapting the tactics to the players, But i'm a fan of the romantic school of though ( in all sports), that's why i have this weak spot for that specific type of football which is harder to master, more beautiful to the eye ( that's also subjective) and produced the best teams i have ever seen.

What would you do in the second leg, just Rakitic instead of Gomes ?

Total-Football said:

I like everything you said about the technical aspect. However, you mentioned that styles of play depend majorly on the personnel at one's disposal.

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I agree with most of you said, but I'm also a "romantic" as far as this game goes, perhaps with a drop of pragmatism.
One could conjure up five Peps for a single team, if the players are not capable of fitting in the system that the coach invents, nothing will happen.
There are only a handful of teams who could afford to buy a star-coach and THEN find the players that suit his ideas. Usually it's the other way around, the coach has to cook the meal out of the ingredients he has at hand...

What would you do in the second leg, just Rakitic instead of Gomes ?

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Yes but one bird is not enough to turn this situation. I'm afraid chances are less than minimal, considering the state of the team.
If Iniesta is fit, it may help. If Mascherano is fit, it may help.
But you have heard that the coach is not listening to anyone, apart from himself, so to stir up a team having a this bad period, would need wonders.

The players know the Liga is lost (because RealM plays well, effectively and consistently), they know that a 4:0 is highly improbable so the CL is also lost, no wonder their motivation is below the "bottom of the frog"...

FlaFCB said:

Simple: our play have been deteriorating since Jan 2016. This is not something that happened overnight, nor it was an accident. Many people, who were paying attention, were seeing the signs of many problems with lucho's Barça. It was not the first time the team played like that either. It's on the coach, not on the players.

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Luckily bartomeu and iniesta said they like to go on with Enrique and that they have faith in him