Cr150

BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
Alik said:
4 and 5.

I'm not disputing that Ronaldo has more titles with NT than Messi. But that doesn't make him better with the NT.
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Again, nobody answered to this:
BBZ8800 said:
Who is better in the last 5 years of a CL?

Barca with 1 CL title and 4 quarters?
Atletico with 2 finals and 1 semis?
Juventus with 2 finals?
Bayern with 4 semis?
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Then Atletico and Juve are surely better than us in the last 5 years, right.
Probably even Bayern.

That means that Barca is a no5 in Europe currently.

But nobody will agree with that.
People will reply: NO! We won a title, we are 2nd best team in a CL in the last 5 years.

So, when it suits us, titles are all that matters and not 2nd places.
When it doesn't suit us, number of finals is what counts...

Alik said:
Except Ronaldo had no participation in that final. Yet somehow that makes him better. Fuck logic.
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Ok, I'll just reply:
If you remove CR7's Euros title because he didn't play in a final...
... then you have to do the same with Messi's CL in 2006 because he didn't play in semis and in a final due to an injury.

So, you can have either:
1. CR7: 5 CLs and 1 Euro
Messi: 4 CLs

Or:
1. CR7: 5 CLs
Messi: 3 CLs

So, if you "remove" Euros from CR7 because he didn't play in a final, you have to do the same with Messi's CL in a 2006.
You can't have: Cr7 5 Cls, Messi 4 and on top of that even to remove CR7's NT title.

Then: CR 5 titles vs Messi 3 titles looks even worse.
 
soul24rage

soul24rage

Senior Member
If we are only using CL's as a means to determine the team/player's legacy, then what's the point of participating in la liga? (I really don't care about the copa del rey)
 
Alik

Alik

Moderator
BBZ8800 said:
Again, nobody answered to this:


Then Atletico and Juve are surely better than us in the last 5 years, right.
Probably even Bayern.

That means that Barca is a no5 in Europe currently.

But nobody will agree with that.
People will reply: NO! We won a title, we are 2nd best team in a CL in the last 5 years.

So, when it suits us, titles are all that matters and not 2nd places.
When it doesn't suit us, number of finals is what counts...
Click to expand...
You can't compare a team with a player, as a team cannot win without playing every match. A player can win without playing a single match.

Your analogy would be more correct in the following scenario:

Imagine Atletico reaches 4 finals and loses. Barca reaches 1 CL and their opponents forfeit or are unable to play and thus Barça automatically win (Think about what happened to Chapecoense). Does that mean Barça > Atletico?

And nobody claims we have been the 2nd best team in CL over past 5 years.


BBZ8800 said:
Ok, I'll just reply:
If you remove CR7's Euros title because he didn't play in a final...
... then you have to do the same with Messi's CL in 2006 because he didn't play in semis and in a final due to an injury.

So, you can have either:
1. CR7: 5 CLs and 1 Euro
Messi: 4 CLs

Or:
1. CR7: 5 CLs
Messi: 3 CLs

So, if you "remove" Euros from CR7 because he didn't play in a final, you have to do the same with Messi's CL in a 2006.
You can't have: Cr7 5 Cls, Messi 4 and on top of that even to remove CR7's NT title.

Then: CR 5 titles vs Messi 3 titles looks even worse.
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And? You didn't read my answer. I said I'm not disputing the number of titles won. I'm not saying his Euro title doesn't exist. I'm saying it doesn't make him a better NT player.

The most common argument used to say Ronaldo has been better than Messi in CL is their performances. The most quoted statistics is how many goals Ronaldo and Messi have scored in KO stages, and how Ronaldo has been top scorer each season.
 
BarcaOG

BarcaOG

Banned
1 international title> 10000 final defeats

are robben, van persie and sjneider glorious just because they played in a final? no. who even remembers? spain won that and that is the result that matters. claiming that 4 defeats for messi in international finals somehow makes his a better international career than CR's euro is terrible logic
 
Alik

Alik

Moderator
BarcaOG said:
1 international title> 10000 final defeats

are robben, van persie and sjneider glorious just because they played in a final? no. who even remembers? spain won that and that is the result that matters. claiming that 4 defeats for messi in international finals somehow makes his a better international career than CR's euro is terrible logic
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We are not talking about careers.
 
BarcaOG

BarcaOG

Banned
Alik said:
We are not talking about careers.
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the two are not so easily separable. what is the point of, say playing phenomenally in i.e. group matches and then having no decisive influence in a final? messi has had four opportunities to excel in an international final, to really cement his status as the GOAT, and has so far been unable to 'perform'. there is nothing memorable about messi's 180+ minutes of final football against Chile for example. to say nothing about his CL knock out performances in since he destroyed bayern in 2015 and, before that, since 2011
 
te amo barca

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Ronaldo is the best NT goalscorer isn’t he? From the current players. Both Messi and Ronaldo were unimpressive with their NTs until about 2012-13 imo.
 
M

Morten

Senior Member
DonAK said:
His record against bigger European sides is abysmal to say the least.
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He plays for Portugal, he really isnt supposed to score many goals against, Germany, France, Brazil etc given the lack of quality he has around him, relatively speaking. Next time Portugal meets a team of Spains quality, its unlikely he will be able to bail Portugal out.

His record could always be better, but drastically better? Doubt that would be possible for any player.
 
Givenchy

Givenchy

Senior Member
Morten said:
He plays for Portugal, he really isnt supposed to score many goals against, Germany, France, Brazil etc given the lack of quality he has around him, relatively speaking. Next time Portugal meets a team of Spains quality, its unlikely he will be able to bail Portugal out.

His record could always be better, but drastically better? Doubt that would be possible for any player.
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normally I'd agree but were talking about 'GOATs' here not just world class players. Messi and Ronaldo have both been underwhelming for their national teams, Maradona produced for club and country.. this is the level were comparing them to.
 
Alik

Alik

Moderator
BarcaOG said:
the two are not so easily separable. what is the point of, say playing phenomenally in i.e. group matches and then having no decisive influence in a final? messi has had four opportunities to excel in an international final, to really cement his status as the GOAT, and has so far been unable to 'perform'. there is nothing memorable about messi's 180+ minutes of final football against Chile for example. to say nothing about his CL knock out performances in since he destroyed bayern in 2015 and, before that, since 2011
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Ronaldo didn't have a decisive influence in a final either. His most decisive influence was getting injured. That's my point. How can you judge on that criteria and say he's been better?
 
te amo barca

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Alik said:
Ronaldo didn't have a decisive influence in a final either. His most decisive influence was getting injured. That's my point. How can you judge on that criteria and say he's been better?
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Him getting injured was just unfortunate. No way to know how he would have performed otherwise. Could have disappeared, could have scored a hat trick for all we know. It’s not like he played and sucked, so it’s unfair to disregard his EURO win. Portugal got there thanks to him after all.
 
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