Cr150

soul24rage

soul24rage

Senior Member
BarcaOG said:
While I agree that for elite players to do their best they need a world-class supporting cast (i.e. Messi + Xavi + Iniesta 2008-2015), I think it's unfair to attribute their success to that alone. CR has continued to be decisive even after Ozil, Di Maria and Xabi Alonso left Real. He was decisive too in Real without Scholes and Giggs from his United days. Back in 2012-14 this forum was replete with arguments that without Ozil and Di Maria CR would not score. We were very very wrong.

So for the same reason that it is absurd to say that Messi only achieved greatness due to Xaviesta (i.e. even today he continues to impress with an aging Iniesta and without Xavi), it is equally unfair to pin CR's successes on Modric.

Imagine a hypothetical world in which it is Messi, but not Ronaldo, who leads in CL goalscoring and knock-out phases goal records (CR has a decent, but not great, assists record too). We would all rightly agree that that Messi would be the CL's greatest ever player. Why deny that to CR just because he's arrogant and plays for our biggest rival? It's just hypocrisy.

Edit: just look back to the posts on this forum from 2015 after we beat Bayern 3-0. Messi had put in a GOAT performance and we were rightly calling it such. Ronaldo scored like 6 against Bayern and Atleti last year. It is silly to deny him credit for doing precisely what we once hailed Messi for.
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Just out of curiosity, can't Paolo Maldini or Andres Iniesta be considered as CL's greatest player as well? They were all great in their respective CL seasons and I feel defence and midfield is just as important as goalscoring.
 
BarcaOG

BarcaOG

Banned
soul24rage said:
Just out of curiosity, can't Paolo Maldini or Andres Iniesta be considered as CL's greatest player as well? They were all great in their respective CL seasons and I feel defence and midfield is just as important as goalscoring.
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Not Iniesta but, on paper at least, Maldini could. I never saw him or his team play.
 
El Gato

El Gato

Villarato!
soul24rage said:
Just out of curiosity, can't Paolo Maldini or Andres Iniesta be considered as CL's greatest player as well? They were all great in their respective CL seasons and I feel defence and midfield is just as important as goalscoring.
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Completely deflecting what [MENTION=1742]BarcaOG[/MENTION] said in effort to avoid saying "yes, I agree, CR is top shit". Wow. I'll never understand why people try so hard to deny the guy what he's worked so hard to earn.
 
soul24rage

soul24rage

Senior Member
Wolfe said:
Completely deflecting what [MENTION=1742]BarcaOG[/MENTION] said in effort to avoid saying "yes, I agree, CR is top shit". Wow. I'll never understand why people try so hard to deny the guy what he's worked so hard to earn.
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I may have misunderstood you, but I don't think I've said that CR isn't the CL best ever player?
 
R

raki

New member
te amo barca said:
in the past, before ronaldo caught up to messi in terms of bdor count, the consensus was that ronaldo is not a top-10 player of all time. That was true, but imo in the last 3 years he has achieved so much that it is simply ignorant to disregard him now. For me he is now surely in the same bracket as messi, pele, maradona, cruyff and other greats.
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ban this ****
 
te amo barca

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Givenchy said:
don't bother with him or that TS88 guy, both closet Ronaldo fans coming out to troll. its bad enough seeing idiots on redcafe claim Ronaldo is the greatest of all time but on a Barca forum? smh
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raki said:
ban this ****
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closet Ronaldo fan lmao. I'm not even trying to hide that I value Ronaldo a lot, for me he really is one of the very best. Yet Messi is still better. However, it is a fact that Ronaldo has performed better in the past 3 seasons when it mattered. I don't like it when he scores and ensures Madrid yet another CL final, but at this point you just have to respect him. Instead, you are blinded by irrational hate.
 
Givenchy

Givenchy

Senior Member
te amo barca said:
closet Ronaldo fan lmao. I'm not even trying to hide that I value Ronaldo a lot, for me he really is one of the very best. Yet Messi is still better. However, it is a fact that Ronaldo has performed better in the past 3 seasons when it mattered. I don't like it when he scores and ensures Madrid yet another CL final, but at this point you just have to respect him. Instead, you are blinded by irrational hate.
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Ronaldo has performed better the past 3 2nd half of seasons. I respect Ronaldo but i dont understand the constant belittling of Messi and bigging up Cristiano on a Barca forum. I don't hate Ronaldo, I hate Madrid.
 
te amo barca

te amo barca

Blaugrana al vent
Givenchy said:
Ronaldo has performed better the past 3 2nd half of seasons. I respect Ronaldo but i dont understand the constant belittling of Messi and bigging up Cristiano on a Barca forum. I don't hate Ronaldo, I hate Madrid.
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I think this season has been the height of frustration with Messi for many because of his body language and perfomance vs Roma. Added to that Ronaldo's heroics against Juve and many posters are just dissappointed that Messi didn't turn up for that Roma game.

Facts are such:
We would be nowhere without Messi, but when he doesn't play well, we are screwed. And unfortunately he tends to play below his standard in CL knock-out rounds these days. Okay, not even the knock-out rounds, but in the quaterfinals specifically (because he scored vs Arsenal away in 15/16 and eliminated Chelsea this season in 1/8).
 
Givenchy

Givenchy

Senior Member
te amo barca said:
I think this season has been the height of frustration with Messi for many because of his body language and perfomance vs Roma. Added to that Ronaldo's heroics against Juve and many posters are just dissappointed that Messi didn't turn up for that Roma game.

Facts are such:
We would be nowhere without Messi, but when he doesn't play well, we are screwed. And unfortunately he tends to play below his standard in CL knock-out rounds these days. Okay, not even the knock-out rounds, but in the quaterfinals specifically (because he scored vs Arsenal away in 15/16 and eliminated Chelsea this season in 1/8).
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Yeah they do have a point. his body language and perceived lack of motivation is a fair criticism of Leo this season but its frustrating to see fellow cules falling into this fickleness fans of other clubs do. Ronaldo was dogshit for the first half of this season and sure we can say CL is most important but its unfair to ignore just how bad he was. Madrid throwing the Liga and Copa shouldn't be something praised and Barca fans should want, i want to see us compete for every trophy going.

Cristiano is top5 of all time for me, great player probably the greatest goalscorer of all time. I've argued with posters on here who call him a mere tap-in merchant but compared to Messi, Maradona, Pele, the top 3 for me, he lacks the magic those 3 possess. 3 CL's in a row is a monstrous feat but this Madrid team deserve just as much credit as Cristiano.
 
T

TS88

Guest
Givenchy said:
Ronaldo has performed better the past 3 2nd half of seasons. I respect Ronaldo but i dont understand the constant belittling of Messi and bigging up Cristiano on a Barca forum. I don't hate Ronaldo, I hate Madrid.
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Its called free speech. If you dont like it then go to China or North Korea where you can worship your dictator with interest.
 
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Givenchy

Givenchy

Senior Member
TS88 said:
Its called free speech. If you dont like it then go to China or North Korea where you can worship your dictator with interest.
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I guess we can worship our grand dictator in peace now :worthy: [MENTION=2]Barcaman[/MENTION]

anyways tonights game for me is why he should never be in the same sentence with Messi, Maradona and Pele. if Madrid aren't feeding him hes pretty much useless, his game has regressed so much its almost sad when you watch him in his United days. could be age but hes been this way longer than hes been in his 30s. travesty if he does win a 6th Ballon d'or. just look at Salah this season compared to this Diva playing in a lesser team
 
DonAndres

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
Football has the most small minded fanbase of all time bar none.

If Ronaldo's goalscoring in the CL makes him the "greatest CL player ever", then tell me right now why is Gerd Muller not seen as a greater player all time than Maradona? Scored hundreds upon hundreds of more goals, won everything Maradona won, etc. He was even a better playmaker than Ronaldo (led the Bundesliga in assists twice) yet Muller is seen as a "poacher" while Ronaldo is "complete".

Messi's top 10 CL performances are literally beyond untouchable by Ronaldo. Greatest CL final performance of all time vs United, destroying RM in the semis, Bayern, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, etc. And I'm talking about PERFORMANCES. Where Messi had something like >70-80 touches, >6-7 dribbles, created several key chances and amazing plays, scored truly wonderful goals. Chipping Neuer after breaking Boateng's ankles, nutmegging Courtois twice, longshots on Neuer/Van der Saar, humiliating Casillas, etc. Goals that make you truly marvel at football.

Not just Ronaldo's "goals" on a statsheet. The only historically impressive CL PERFORMANCES that Ronaldo has had in the past 2 years was the away game vs Juve this year and Atletico last year when he scored the hattrick. The others are just fairly anonymous games where he scored very basic goals and did little else. Even in the CL final last year he had less touches than Buffon and was absolutely not better than Modric who assisted his 2nd and dominated the midfield all round.

Ronaldo has a solid argument as the greatest CL player ever, but he is still not clearly ahead of Messi there if even that. Messi still has a better goal to game ratio in the CL and as many titles for now. Ronaldo's performance in the next 2 games could change things but people have jumped the gun on his European greatness. People seriously make it seem like scoring a goal is the ONLY valuable thing you can do on a football pitch.
 
M

Morten

Senior Member
DonAndres said:
Football has the most small minded fanbase of all time bar none.

If Ronaldo's goalscoring in the CL makes him the "greatest CL player ever", then tell me right now why is Gerd Muller not seen as a greater player all time than Maradona? Scored hundreds upon hundreds of more goals, won everything Maradona won, etc. He was even a better playmaker than Ronaldo (led the Bundesliga in assists twice) yet Muller is seen as a "poacher" while Ronaldo is "complete".

Messi's top 10 CL performances are literally beyond untouchable by Ronaldo. Greatest CL final performance of all time vs United, destroying RM in the semis, Bayern, Chelsea, City, Arsenal, etc. And I'm talking about PERFORMANCES. Where Messi had something like >70-80 touches, >6-7 dribbles, created several key chances and amazing plays, scored truly wonderful goals. Chipping Neuer after breaking Boateng's ankles, nutmegging Courtois twice, longshots on Neuer/Van der Saar, humiliating Casillas, etc. Goals that make you truly marvel at football.

Not just Ronaldo's "goals" on a statsheet. The only historically impressive CL PERFORMANCES that Ronaldo has had in the past 2 years was the away game vs Juve this year and Atletico last year when he scored the hattrick. The others are just fairly anonymous games where he scored very basic goals and did little else. Even in the CL final last year he had less touches than Buffon and was absolutely not better than Modric who assisted his 2nd and dominated the midfield all round.

Ronaldo has a solid argument as the greatest CL player ever, but he is still not clearly ahead of Messi there if even that. Messi still has a better goal to game ratio in the CL and as many titles for now. Ronaldo's performance in the next 2 games could change things but people have jumped the gun on his European greatness. People seriously make it seem like scoring a goal is the ONLY valuable thing you can do on a football pitch.
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I agree that Messi is a better player in general, but jeez, you are really trying hard to edge everything you possibly can in Messis favor.
Messis best performances are more dominant than Ronaldos, yes, but there is no question that Ronaldo is now the better CL player.
You say something about goalratio, but again, Ronaldo has far outscored Messi in knockouts, the bigger games. Was it always top opposition in those knockouts? No, but neither was it for Messi. Knockout goals counts more than group stage goals for me and thats that.
As for titles, Messis first CL-title was hardly his achievment, i mean, that was Ronaldinhos Barcelona, they would have won it anyways.

Btw, people will indeed remember Ronaldos matches in the CL, even if he didnt drible past 5 players or something.
 
Joan

Joan

Well-known member
People really have short-term memory. One day Ronaldo puts up a show and the other he's the best ever, another day it's someone else. Not that Messi hasn't had great CL campaigns.

Has he recently been outperformed by Ronaldo? Of course, it's undeniable, but not that Messi hadn't been better in the past. I'd, quite frankly, kill to see Messi as motivated as Ronaldo. That Man gives his best, I don't like him as a public figure nor I like his behavior, but I respect it.
When I talk about attitude, Real has that, same as Ronaldo and most of their fans, after all, cocky attitude. They are arrogant, self-confident and I see it as a positive. I don't want it that way, I hate it at times - but that's how it is.

That aside, I will always know that Messi is a superior player. No doubt about that. But don't really care if people think otherwise.
 
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