Neymar Jr. - v5

DonAK said:

Considering this forum have named Neymar the MOTM of three times this season, I guess that's evidence enough for you?

Unless you and a select few others are the only ones on this forum who are right while the rest of us are fanboys, bandwagoners etc.

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Ok, don't stick now with 3 matches.

You know the point:
Neymar plays like a crap since February of 2016.
People claim how we would be dead without him.
But on nights like this, some doubts are coming...

A few times before a lot of us said something like:
Instead of a 150M Neymar who is hot and cold all the time, on long terms, there are some "normal" 30-50M wingers whoa re less talented and less shiny players, but with whom on a field, our results could have been more consistent.

But since this is not a manager game, and we can't test how a full season would look with Arda or a random cheaper Lw in our team (without Neymar), all we can do is analyse matches with and without Neymar on a field.

Till now, whenever Neymar doesn't play and when Arda plays as a LW, we get a reply:
= oh, it was an easy match, this is why we trashed the opponent

Well then, I am waiting for a moment when:
1. Lucho will bench Neymar in a bigger match
2. or when Neymar will be injured or suspended for some tougher match

That is the only way currently to see how our team will play WITHOUT Neymar against a tougher opponent.
But again, I would like to see our team in that match without BOTH Neymar and Rakitic.

My bet is that we would have a lot of movement, fluidity and classic Barca's DNA play.
You would remove a guy who is killing our fluidity and a guy who can't run anymore.
That's often like playing with 9 players.

But we'll probably have more chances to see a team without Neymar and Rakitic in upcoming 4-5 Months.

BBZ8800 said:

Name 3 matches in 2016 when Neymar played good for Barca, regardless of a result.

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I can easily name 20 games when he played outstandingly - regardless of the result.
If one is not able to objectively judge how an individual player does in a game or what he is able to add to the particular game, than there is no use to talk about these qualities or results, because all you will see is if x or y generally like y player or not.
Absolutely pointless and meaningless...

You're doing the same now.

Putting all the blame on Neymar for our inconsistent play.

I'm not going to engage in this debate further if you're not going to consider tactical deficiencies(such as the middle and left getting double teamed and right flank left alone), fitness issues, integration of new team members etc. into account for our bad play this season.

When Arda plays well or badly, he plays well or badly. That's it. When Neymar plays well or badly, he plays well or badly.

When the team plays badly, it's the team. The overall team that isn't functioning.

Our team played great against Manchester City. Fluid movement, team cohesion and everything and Neymar played that game.

You're not analysing games at all. You're pointing out some stats of your own choice and concluding we're playing badly because of a single player. Guess what. I did the same to prove you're wrong.

If you truly analyzed games, then you would take absolutely everything I mentioned above into account, but you're not because the only reason you even comment on this thread is to try and paint a picture where the root of all our problems are Neymar and I actually proved you wrong above by listing games he played and the entire team played well and got some big results.

BBZ8800 said:

Neymar plays like a crap since February of 2016.
People claim how we would be dead without him.
But on nights like this, some doubts are coming...

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Perhaps he plays like "crap" in your subjective eyes, but let me be a bit "result oriented" in this case and tell you that unless he played here, unless Messi and Suarez played here, I wouldn't even think of watching a Barca game, while you would still be saying meaningless stuff while watching Arda, Gomes or the rest of the mediocre players whom you can see anywhere if you switch on your TV...

Potroh said:

I can easily name 20 games when he played outstandingly - regardless of the result.
If one is not able to objectively judge how an individual player does in a game or what he is able to add to the particular game, than there is no use to talk about these qualities or results, because all you will see is if x or y generally like y player or not.
Absolutely pointless and meaningless...

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About someone playing outstanding, but results missing.
Well, how is that possible in a team with MSN, Iniesta etc?

About Neymar playing outstanding, you are newer here on a forum, a lot of people are whining about Neymar for 3 seasons already.
In his first season, he was just meh.
In his 2nd, treble season, he was awesome when you look at the whole season, but he and the whole team were quite poor in the 1st part of a season, and even in a 2nd part of a season, he is the only guy who had a cold-form in La liga for around 10 matches (I used to make jokes back then: 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, xxLa liga matches from Ney without a goal from an open play).
We won a treble, so it was forgotten.
In his 3rd season, he again disappeared in spring, the same as in 2015'.
And because of Messi+Suarez, we managed to win La liga, in spite of invisible Neymar.

So, that was a meh 1st season, a drop in form in a 2nd season, horrible drop in form in his 3rd season, and now you have this, 4th season.
He isn't scoring, he is playing quite meh for majority of people and a team in general is playing bad and missing his contribution.

In terms of talent, he is an out of this world talent.
But he is extremely inconsistent, hot and cold, interested in off field things.
And imo, and a lot of guys think the same, he is not worth all the money and problems invested in him.

So, it is not only about hating a player.
As you can see in other topics, I turned from a Raki-fan into a Raki-hater because I think that is the best for a team, Barca.
It is not nice towards a player, but it is the best towards a club whom I love.

About Ney, I was never a fan of him, but my point is: when you put it all on paper, all money and problems invested in him, I don't think that he was worth it.
That money could have been invested in a lot of different positions, and I don't think that our team (which would be stronger in other areas and with a decent LW) wouldn't be any weaker without hot and cold Neymar.

Yes, we wouldn't be able to see some random flashes of brilliance, but I was always a fan of Barca, not single players, plus points and trophies are always more important to me than a show.
That doesn't mean that I want for our team to play like under Mourinho.
But a show and talent without results don't mean anything for me.

We need a balance of results plus a nice play.
But if I would need to pick between:
1) ugly play and wins
2) or beautiful play and defeats all the time
= I would personally pick results over show

Also, you have already said d that he is outstanding.
Maybe you are giving him too much credit because of his talent and you aren't too harsh on him when he doesn't deliver=because you are too blinded/biased by his natural talent

I am glad we could bench Neymar today with no problems.

Too bad we don't have a reliable sub for Suarez.

DonAK said:

You're doing the same now.

Putting all the blame on Neymar for our inconsistent play.

I'm not going to engage in this debate further if you're not going to consider tactical deficiencies(such as the middle and left getting double teamed and right flank left alone), fitness issues, integration of new team members etc. into account for our bad play this season.

When Arda plays well or badly, he plays well or badly. That's it. When Neymar plays well or badly, he plays well or badly.

When the team plays badly, it's the team. The overall team that isn't functioning.

Our team played great against Manchester City. Fluid movement, team cohesion and everything and Neymar played that game.

You're not analysing games at all. You're pointing out some stats of your own choice and concluding we're playing badly because of a single player. Guess what. I did the same to prove you're wrong.

If you truly analyzed games, then you would take absolutely everything I mentioned above into account, but you're not because the only reason you even comment on this thread is to try and paint a picture where the root of all our problems are Neymar and I actually proved you wrong above by listing games he played and the entire team played well and got some big results.

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The root of our problems is that our team played bad in all 2016.
If you look at individuals:
Messi played well
Suarez mostly played well
Iniesta played well
Busi was weaker

But:
Rakitic played horrible in 2016
Neymar was below his level in whole 2016

Let's go further:
1. Lucho's mistakes, ok
2. lack of a motivation (that's my opinion)

There are a lot of problems.
But on one hand, people say that Lucho made mistakes, but then, Messi plays as good as always (if you get me?).
So, Lucho is dumb, but some players still play world class.
Then, Lucho is bad, and this is why some players are suffering, hmm..

So, there is a point that both Lucho is dumb, Neymar also lost his level, Rakitic lost physical skills, we lost Alves, we don't have as much motivation as before etc.
A lot of different factors.

RB: we can't do too much, let's move to other problems then
Lucho: we can't do too much , let's move to other problems:
= you can try to work on motivation (like putting some younger players)
= and work on individual players who dropped their level (in my eyes: Neymar and Rakitic)

Look, Lucho won't bench Neymar and I think that we will could play better soon even when we drop Rakitic.
But still, it is worth testing a lineup without both Neymar and Rakitic, to see whether some individual performances were also a part of our fail.

Alik said:

I am glad we could bench Neymar today with no problems.

Too bad we don't have a reliable sub for Suarez.

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Who knows, Alcacer moved well today. Had an assist and some good runs. I say we don't give up on the players we've signed in the summer. They can help if trusted. It's more a matter of confidence than ability.

Potroh said:

I can easily name 20 games when he played outstandingly - regardless of the result.
If one is not able to objectively judge how an individual player does in a game or what he is able to add to the particular game, than there is no use to talk about these qualities or results, because all you will see is if x or y generally like y player or not.
Absolutely pointless and meaningless...

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lol Potroh, Ney is a divisive figure. Some adore him and some adore to hate him. Perso, always enjoy watching him play, specially when he's having fun! It was the same with el gaucho. That's why the letter he wrote and posted on his page a few days ago was so touching. but different strokes for different folks and all, no need to sweat it
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION],

In terms of talent, he is an out of this world talent.

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at least, we'll agree on that

But a show and talent without results don't mean anything for me.

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ya know what, I think that's a good point and it's cool of you to have stated it. For instance, me and many of my buddies, we actually enjoy the show more than the result. Maybe it's cultural, maybe it's personality or temperament.

If we were all the same, life would be damn boring!

DonAK said:

Considering this forum have named Neymar the MOTM of three times this season, I guess that's evidence enough for you?

Unless you and a select few others are the only ones on this forum who are right while the rest of us are fanboys, bandwagoners etc.

Also 3rd on that MOTM thread.

That's not to say he's been great, but not as bad as made out to be either, nor the reason for some of our bad performances.

Ironically, some of the games I listed up there where he played and we won big were among our best games this season. Against some handy opposition too.

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After the Bilbao game,he is actually second now overall.

Davi Lucca joined FCB Escola

Egert said:

Davi Lucca joined FCB Escola

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Yep, together with Thiago Messi, Benjamin Suarez and Milan Pique. Future is bright.

TBF, I'd be surprised if one of them will turn out at least half as good as their dads are. But we can hope for the next 10 or 15 years.

Has there ever been a world class father-son couple? Maldini perhaps?

evilhita666 said:

Has there ever been a world class father-son couple? Maldini perhaps?

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I guess that's the only one. Cesare and Paolo.

Simeone's son seem to be doing alright in Genoa.

These 2 chaps fit the bill



they might even foot it. Good lads