10 - Lionel Messi - v5

FCB50

Banned
This was my first year watching NBA playoffs but one thing I found a bit interesting is the similarity between how basketball players are judged almost exclusively on titles/playoffs and soccer players increasingly judged mostly on CL/World Cup. For example, let's say Curry is better than Lebron for all 82 regular season games and even the first two rounds of the playoffs, but Lebron dominates the final two rounds and leads his team to the title. Even though Curry might be the "better player" given that he outperformed Lebron 90% of the time, Lebron would probably be judged as having the better season.

What worries me about this trend as a Messi/Barcelona fan is that Messi might have been better than Ronaldo as a player 80-85% of the time over the past 3 years, but Ronaldo still ends up on top for most neutrals because he's been the one performing in more of the big matches and winning the bigger trophies. I thought this World Cup would be Messi's chance to reclaim his status as the clear #1, but he really needs to step up for the rest of the tournament otherwise Ronaldo will be considered the GOAT of this era in most people's eyes at least until the next CL knockout stage.
 
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Joan

Well-known member
That wasn't Simeone! It was an Argentina comedian who did impersonate Diego Simeone.

Have a proof? Not that I don't trust you, but could use it in another discussion.

Madridista friend claiming this is the proof which ends the discussion once for all.
 

Givenchy

Senior Member
This was my first year watching NBA playoffs but one thing I found a bit interesting is the similarity between how basketball players are judged almost exclusively on titles/playoffs and soccer players increasingly judged mostly on CL/World Cup. For example, let's say Curry is better than Lebron for all 82 regular season games and even the first two rounds of the playoffs, but Lebron dominates the final two rounds and leads his team to the title. Even though Curry might be the "better player" given that he outperformed Lebron 90% of the time, Lebron would probably be judged as having the better season.

What worries me about this trend as a Messi/Barcelona fan is that Messi might have been better than Ronaldo as a player 80-85% of the time over the past 3 years, but Ronaldo still ends up on top for most neutrals because he's been the one performing in more of the big matches and winning the bigger trophies. I thought this World Cup would be Messi's chance to reclaim his status as the clear #1, but he really needs to step up for the rest of the tournament otherwise Ronaldo will be considered the GOAT of this era in most people's eyes at least until the next CL knockout stage.



I thought this would be Messi's world cup. after a meh season in the CL and this likely being his last for Argentina i was expecting a fired up Messi but instead we get the same walking, sulking attitude. this world cup is crucial and will settle the debate for not only the Ballon d'or (6-5) but for the majority also.

if Ronaldo can lead Portugal to a WC final (and actually play the final scoring) and win it then you have to say on this occasion, hard work has triumphed over natural talent and he has to go down as the greatest player of this generation. Messi has more talent but then again Ronaldinho is the most talented skillfull player ive ever seen but we don't put his name in the GOAT pantheon, its the consistency and longevity combined with trophies and Ronaldo is ahead right now. the CL imo doesn't compare to a World cup, so this won't be forgotten even with a CL win


anyways regarding the Nigeria game, sadly i can only see more humiliation for Argentina. they aren't turning this around with the amount of drama and infighting going on.
 
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clemente

New member
[/B]

I thought this would be Messi's world cup. after a meh season in the CL and this likely being his last for Argentina i was expecting a fired up Messi but instead we get the same walking, sulking attitude. this world cup is crucial and will settle the debate for not only the Ballon d'or (6-5) but for the majority also.

if Ronaldo can lead Portugal to a WC final (and actually play the final scoring) and win it then you have to say on this occasion, hard work has triumphed over natural talent and he has to go down as the greatest player of this generation. Messi has more talent but then again Ronaldinho is the most talented skillfull player ive ever seen but we don't put his name in the GOAT pantheon, its the consistency and longevity combined with trophies and Ronaldo is ahead right now. the CL imo doesn't compare to a World cup, so this won't be forgotten even with a CL win


anyways regarding the Nigeria game, sadly i can only see more humiliation for Argentina. they aren't turning this around with the amount of drama and infighting going on.

But the talk is about Ronaldo just showing up at the latest stage, when he was outperfromed by Messi 90% of the season like Lebron, so why would that be "go down as the greatest player of this generation" ? Does consistency mean nothing no more? At one point I think in la liga Messi had like 30 goals and Ronaldo had less than Paulinho. I think any football fan who is somewhat invested and bothers to actually watch football games, would never even have a thought to compare Messi to anyone. Sure Messi was underwhelming in this WC and against Roma, but even Ronaldo dragging his team to WC victory wouldn't make me consider actually comparing him to Messi. And in CL he was invisible, if he didn't pick up a goal, you would think he didn't play, even the same thing happened in his last game against Morroco, but you put "greatest of this generation" and his name in the same sentence?
 

Givenchy

Senior Member
But the talk is about Ronaldo just showing up at the latest stage, when he was outperfromed by Messi 90% of the season like Lebron, so why would that be "go down as the greatest player of this generation" ? Does consistency mean nothing no more? At one point I think in la liga Messi had like 30 goals and Ronaldo had less than Paulinho. I think any football fan who is somewhat invested and bothers to actually watch football games, would never even have a thought to compare Messi to anyone. Sure Messi was underwhelming in this WC and against Roma, but even Ronaldo dragging his team to WC victory wouldn't make me consider actually comparing him to Messi. And in CL he was invisible, if he didn't pick up a goal, you would think he didn't play, even the same thing happened in his last game against Morroco, but you put "greatest of this generation" and his name in the same sentence?

Messi did outperform Ronaldo for 90% of the season but that last 10% he didn't ended up with Ronaldo winning his 3rd CL in a row and these are the fine margins at the top.

I was arguing Messi's case vs Ronaldo fanboys i know irl and they had some fair points; if you had a penalty in the last minute of a world cup final, who would you pick to take it? I gotta admit, i'd pick Ronaldo... and thats coming from a huge Messi fan. we cules always said Messi is the one who carries his team while Ronaldo has Kroos-Modric and Marcelo feeding him but this world cup is really damaging that claim. vs Spain Ronaldo was showing alot more than Tapinaldo, probably the best ive seen him in years.

Ronaldo is like a swiss army knife, he can score from anywhere and in any way.. heading is crucial especially if Portugal play like shit, one cross or corner is all it takes.

i want to be clear; Messi is a better player than Ronaldo but trophies have to play their part in any debate.
 

ebc_99

Active member
Messi did outperform Ronaldo for 90% of the season but that last 10% he didn't ended up with Ronaldo winning his 3rd CL in a row and these are the fine margins at the top.

I was arguing Messi's case vs Ronaldo fanboys i know irl and they had some fair points; if you had a penalty in the last minute of a world cup final, who would you pick to take it? I gotta admit, i'd pick Ronaldo... and thats coming from a huge Messi fan. we cules always said Messi is the one who carries his team while Ronaldo has Kroos-Modric and Marcelo feeding him but this world cup is really damaging that claim. vs Spain Ronaldo was showing alot more than Tapinaldo, probably the best ive seen him in years.

Ronaldo is like a swiss army knife, he can score from anywhere and in any way.. heading is crucial especially if Portugal play like shit, one cross or corner is all it takes.

i want to be clear; Messi is a better player than Ronaldo but trophies have to play their part in any debate.

But Messi has more trophies and is 3 years younger.

Listen, Messi is a step above and the only people who think differently don't watch that much of either player. My brother in law and I had an argument about it and he was adamant that Ronaldo is better but he doesn't even watch Spanish football, and the last Argentina game he watched before this world cup was the 2014 final. The reasons he gave were trophies or clutch moments but what is Ronaldo actually better at? He is a better athlete, better in the air and at penalties but what else? To compare Ronaldo to Messi is an insult to Leo.

There is nothing Ronaldo can do to match Messi he just doesn't have the talent. Messi fans have to be a little patient, this will turn back in his favour I have no doubt. When the dust settles and their careers are over and we can judge them on their ability and achievements then Messi will be the clear winner.
 

Givenchy

Senior Member
But Messi has more trophies and is 3 years younger.

Listen, Messi is a step above and the only people who think differently don't watch that much of either player. My brother in law and I had an argument about it and he was adamant that Ronaldo is better but he doesn't even watch Spanish football, and the last Argentina game he watched before this world cup was the 2014 final. The reasons he gave were trophies or clutch moments but what is Ronaldo actually better at? He is a better athlete, better in the air and at penalties but what else? To compare Ronaldo to Messi is an insult to Leo.

There is nothing Ronaldo can do to match Messi he just doesn't have the talent. Messi fans have to be a little patient, this will turn back in his favour I have no doubt. When the dust settles and their careers are over and we can judge them on their ability and achievements then Messi will be the clear winner.

Messi is a step above in terms of talent, agreed but on the biggest of stages for the past 3 years he hasn't stepped up. we Barca fans see Leo all the time and we know what hes capable of but at the world cup, all eyes are watching and you cant deny hes failed hugely so far.

I want Messi to succeed, im a huge fan but the likelyhood this week is Argentina exit the WC in an easy group, Messi retires from international football -> cue the haters 'bottler! coward!' while Ronaldo steps up against Iran and Portugal have a smooth route to the semi's.

unless he has a complete change of attitude and regains that fire within, Messi fans waiting patient will be left disappointed watching Ronaldo take all the accolades
 

Richard.H

Senior Member
Do not compare Lebron to Messi. Lebron has stepped up in the big moments and has only failed at the last possible stage. In the past 3 years Messi alone has not carried this team to the CL finals. He has had no impact on a big decisive CL match since finals 2015
 

Barcilliant

Senior Member
There is no doubt in terms of talent Messi is in a different class to Ronaldo. However so were players like Zlatan, real Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho.

However Messi has gone Mia last three years. Seems to have lost fire and too complacent.

People remember the big games and big moments. Destring lesser teams was Ronaldos legacy. Sadly of late its becoming Messi's.
 

FCB50

Banned
Do not compare Lebron to Messi. Lebron has stepped up in the big moments and has only failed at the last possible stage. In the past 3 years Messi alone has not carried this team to the CL finals. He has had no impact on a big decisive CL match since finals 2015

I was just using that as an example to highlight the importance of performing on the big stage. I hardly follow basketball at all so I have no idea how Messi/Ronaldo would compare across sports.
 

ebc_99

Active member
Who cares about LeBron, how many people play basketball? Hardly anybody and you have to be 6 8" just to be average height, the talent pool is tiny. With football there are millions of players all over the world, LeBron isn't fit to lace Messi's boots.

As for Messi stepping up, well he has been the best player in Spain these past 3 years by a country mile. He steps up every week. The difference with him and Ronaldo is that Messi has to perform for Barca to be successful whilst Ronaldo does not. Look at the final, Ronaldo plays like crap suprise suprise and Zidane brings in Bale to win the game. How does Bale scoring 2 goals and Karious practically throwing the ball in his own net prove that Ronaldo steps up? If he's is such a big game player then why was he poor in the 09, 14, 16 & 18 Champions League finals, why didn't he step up in El Classico when Real needed the win? Or against Bayern in the semi's? Ronaldo is no better at performing in big games than anybody else, the difference is is that he is the main goalscorer for the best team in Europe so he has more opportunities to score big goals, but not necessarily with better performances.
 

Barcilliant

Senior Member
You know something is wrong when Barca fans are critical of Messi. If Messi had put in better performances in those qf exits there wouldn't be so much criticism. He was basically anonymous in those matches.
 

henias

New member
There's definitely a clear decline for Messi, considering his whole game revolves around mostly dribbling around tight areas, quick acceleration. Messi still lacks alot like workrate, height, pace especially when he's of this age. For Ronaldo, he still can fully function as a striker because of his athleticism but for Messi, he cant, either he plays more as a deep playmaker or midfielder but obviously he is not putting enough workrate when functioning as a midfielder. Obviously he also cannot fully play as an effective false 9 when in Argentina the ball isnt supplying to him as well.

It's really hard to compare Cristiano and Messi as both have different playstyles and system around them but certainly what Messi could improve on is his workrate around the field to open up more spaces considering opponents will be focused on him. Dybala and Messi needs to strike a partnership. But I do agrees he shows alot less hunger and energy than he is years back.
 

snowy

New member
But Messi has more trophies and is 3 years younger.

Listen, Messi is a step above ...

i s mu.jpg if a single step, then it's an ∞ step

There is nothing Ronaldo can do to match Messi he just doesn't have the talent.

edit: Rivalries sell papers and get clicks. CR's NPD's been inflated by the mass media baloney machine. It's the oldest trick in the book. The bigger the bull, the more folks will line up to lick it up

:shit::chef: ding ding ding A table!!!

plenty of happy diners too! no need to go far, just check this thread a few pages back before the Iran game hehe

Comparing Messi's virtuoso magic to CR's levels, turning it into a "VS" debate and making folks gobble it up is actually one whopper of a mediatic tour de force.

now see Salieri in the movie Amadeus, he received all the accolades and was a good composer in his own right. But he was no Mozart.

in the same expanse, Xavi could be Bach, Don could be Chopin and as for Pistolero, let's see...

Bernard Hermann! :shower: :jacko:
 
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