10 - Lionel Messi - v5

BBZ8800 said:

Lol. Cr7 didn't score in a final and now he is bad.

Regarding key matches, do you know that in the last 13 matches of Cl's quarters, semis and a final, in the last 5 years, Messi didn't score a goal on 12 matches.

So, he didn't score in the last 12 out of 13 key knockout matches.
Think about it a little.

Something happened with Messi after all those Nt finals defeats.

Now try to count how many goals Cr7 scored in Cl knockout rounds in the last 5 years.

The sad truth for Messi is, in the last 5 years, Messi and Barca are kings of La liga.
While both Messi and Barca are invisible in a Cl against big boys.
Cr7 is a boss in the last 5 years in key Cl knockout matches and on an NT level.

After Cr7's goals against Spain, I have seen some troll video where guys said: now Messi will score a hattrick against Getafe and he will be the best again.

That was a troll video, I love Messi, but at the end of the day, it was true.
Messi is lately dominating only La liga matches.
But remember, there is no pressure in La liga.
If you lose one weekend, nothing will happen.
In La liga, we will win 3:0 against Atletico.
In a Cl, we will probably lose 0:2 and 0:0.

Both Barca and Messi are mentally not strong enough anymore for sudden death knockout matches.

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Mental strength or the lack of it seems to be the word of the day... Weird.

My theory is this... You guys are overthinking things to the point that it is bordering on the insane.

Reality is far too complex for most people and this forum is no exception.

You can keep harping on about Ronaldo this, Ronaldo that. He is clearly a driven individual, mostly by what Messi does (as can be seen by his celebrations) but right there is where the comparison ends. He can score as many goals as he likes, it makes little difference because Messi scores just as many if not more. They were once comparable but not now. Ronaldo gave up his football for numbers, coincidentally to win Ballon D'Or's while Messi is still doing what he's always done which is play the game in a manner that very few can or have been able to.

You talk about sad truths... The reality is that Barcelona have deviated from a style and system of football that has brought them unprecedented success. Before Cruyff this club won little outside of Spain and now with this deviation from his model have gone back to that sad reality. The teams dominating Europe are building styles, systems and signing the types of players and managers that we were once the bastion of. What we've done is gone from that system of team work to a system reliant on individual brilliance, mostly from one man, and when he fails he is labelled mentally weak, lazy and all sorts of things which are neither complementary nor true. It is no coincidence that Madrid's recent rise in Europe coincided with them forgoing the signing of galactico's in order to focus on the type of players that can play in a system like Modric, Kroos, Ceballos, Asensio, Hernandez etc etc so when their star fails the team is still there. They keep Benzema, who is criminally underated, around because he makes their system tick at the expense of his own glory and now they've signed a manager that has basically copy and pasted Cruyff's ideas and implanted it into a very good Spain team. What we go and do is the complete opposite... We sign managers that have very different ideas to the very legacy that brought us success and the legacy that other clubs are now using to take their teams forward. And to top it all off these managers we sign bring in players which result in our star player having to accommodate them. We don't keep Suarez around because he makes our system tick, we build our system around accommodating him at the expense of our star player.

So no, Messi and Barca are not mentally weak, what we're witnessing is the culmination of a rot that started some time ago with the signings of players like Rakitic, Gomes, Arda, Vidal, Paulinho... Signings that are neither here nor there which the likes of you are clamouring for more of instead of what makes us and others great. More of the same is what you will be left with...

MessiCam said:

Mental strength or the lack of it seems to be the word of the day... Weird.

My theory is this... You guys are overthinking things to the point that it is bordering on the insane.

Reality is far too complex for most people and this forum is no exception.

You can keep harping on about Ronaldo this, Ronaldo that. He is clearly a driven individual, mostly by what Messi does (as can be seen by his celebrations) but right there is where the comparison ends. He can score as many goals as he likes, it makes little difference because Messi scores just as many if not more. They were once comparable but not now. Ronaldo gave up his football for numbers, coincidentally to win Ballon D'Or's while Messi is still doing what he's always done which is play the game in a manner that very few can or have been able to.

You talk about sad truths... The reality is that Barcelona have deviated from a style and system of football that has brought them unprecedented success. Before Cruyff this club won little outside of Spain and now with this deviation from his model have gone back to that sad reality. The teams dominating Europe are building styles, systems and signing the types of players and managers that we were once the bastion of. What we've done is gone from that system of team work to a system reliant on individual brilliance, mostly from one man, and when he fails he is labelled mentally weak, lazy and all sorts of things which are neither complementary nor true. It is no coincidence that Madrid's recent rise in Europe coincided with them forgoing the signing of galactico's in order to focus on the type of players that can play in a system like Modric, Kroos, Ceballos, Asensio, Hernandez etc etc so when their star fails the team is still there. They keep Benzema, who is criminally underated, around because he makes their system tick at the expense of his own glory and now they've signed a manager that has basically copy and pasted Cruyff's ideas and implanted it into a very good Spain team. What we go and do is the complete opposite... We sign managers that have very different ideas to the very legacy that brought us success and the legacy that other clubs are now using to take their teams forward. And to top it all off these managers we sign bring in players which result in our star player having to accommodate them. We don't keep Suarez around because he makes our system tick, we build our system around accommodating him at the expense of our star player.

So no, Messi and Barca are not mentally weak, what we're witnessing is the culmination of a rot that started some time ago with the signings of players like Rakitic, Gomes, Arda, Vidal, Paulinho... Signings that are neither here nor there which the likes of you are clamouring for more of instead of what makes us and others great. More of the same is what you will be left with...

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Agree with most of the statements, except rakitic. He deserves to be here, maybe not a starting material but surely does belong here. Ffs, for the amount of money we spend on him, goal in cl final, couple of goals against real, and some spectacular performances including this season(no matter how bad we were) he was one of the few who earned their paychecks. Even paulinho, it was a stupid signing, but he delivered. Others were pure and utter shit

Kul_z said:

Agree with most of the statements, except rakitic. He deserves to be here, maybe not a starting material but surely does belong here. Ffs, for the amount of money we spend on him, goal in cl final, couple of goals against real, and some spectacular performances including this season(no matter how bad we were) he was one of the few who earned their paychecks. Even paulinho, it was a stupid signing, but he delivered. Others were pure and utter shit

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You are right, but seeing how Rakitic went from a squad player to such an important focal point in the team it shows how much he improved and how much our midfield worsened year after year. The rest though...... Gomes, Arda, Vidal, Paulinho is like 100-150 million down the drain.

Kul_z said:

Agree with most of the statements, except rakitic. He deserves to be here, maybe not a starting material but surely does belong here. Ffs, for the amount of money we spend on him, goal in cl final, couple of goals against real, and some spectacular performances including this season(no matter how bad we were) he was one of the few who earned their paychecks. Even paulinho, it was a stupid signing, but he delivered. Others were pure and utter shit

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I get that people like the idea of Rakitic, and I'd be open to his use as a substitute, but I can't agree that he belongs here. He is not a ball playing midfielder... The reason he was so good for Lucho in the 2014/15 season was due to the more direct brand of football played and him having a stacked right flank of Messi and Alves. When Messi in, everything but theory, abandoned the right flank and Alves transferred out he was horribly exposed for the limited player he is. Last season he was back to his best again because Valverde played him in his preferred double pivot but this setup hinders Busquets, Iniesta, Paulinho and Messi so I'm not happy about that... For the most part when a 3 man midfield was employed he shat the bed like against Levante and Sociedad at seasons end. He struggles to function in a 4-3-3.

As for Paulinho, yes he delivered in terms of goals but Valverde's system goes against everything positive about his play. He as opposed to Rakitic functions in 4-3-3 but not in a double pivot where he has to play wide. He can't even play in the double pivot because defense is not his strength. His strengths are pocketing players and getting in the box.

snowy said:

Dr. Van Nostrand clinical case study 2:

On transference as a defense mechanism. The purporting of any Messianic Savior figure as flawed serves as a coping instrument and sacrifice emblem in times of emotional unrest.
Patient projects unto an outside figure of strength his own fears and anxieties, as a crutch to navigate the virginal labyrinths of its unsettled id. Sharing these revelations acts as barrier against an overflow of the id and shelters the mind from falling into intrapsychic crisis.

View attachment 7888 giddy up

When feeling overwhelmed, patient will use negative (self-) talk into a doom-concentric loop.
Feelings of insecurities, inadequacies, impotence and fears are revealed through lamentations, confessions of emasculation and toxic outcries:



Pointing out the eunichization imagery

Thing about chance is, it eventually evens out. Watch Lady Luck swing back & dance the tango a gogo with Leo. Ole!

No CL win is not due to Leo being mentally weak; it's due to poor signings and rotation.

It's like having Senna do a pit-stop and force him to get out of the car to put the fuel in and change the tires. + provide him with oil of Olay instead of proper gasoline. I mean WTF!

Peace out yo

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Well said, doc

It's the same as with Real fluking to 3 CLs. All of a sudden, they've been a better team and all our trophies are meaningless.

I do hope things even out in the end. We need to be optimistic.

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] You're plain wrong in saying there is no pressure in La Liga.

Way to devalue it.

On to the more pressing matter of this World Cup...

Judging from the Croatia coach and Lovren's comments he will be up against another low block.

Messi things...

Messi is the GOAT but i think it's way harder to build a team around him than for example Ronaldo. You can use Ronaldo as your target and he isn't really involved in anything besides finishing so his impact on the teams overall performance isn't that big what means less pressure on him.

With Messi it's more difficult. You either give up on a tall striker or wings or a 3 man midfield with him because he seems to always play the same position no matter what anyway. With Messi as a number 10 you put immense pressure on the double pivot since he can't defend and it results in "giving the ball to Messi" as your midfield plan because that's just how it will play out 9 out of 10 times.

The only way to have 3 midfielders with Messi is him playing as "wing" or CF. We all know how RW Messi looks like in reality and Messi as false 9 means no real striker in the box...that's kinda tough for a coach.

Reals solution with Ronaldo being more of a striker than a LW these days is Marcelo and to an extent Carvajal. Having wingbacks like that (especially Marcelo) gives you so much more freedom with your formation because your LB pretty much covers two positions at once just like Alves did. But Alba and Roberto/Semedo aren't good enough to do that and our CMs aren't on Isco/Modric/Kroos level what makes our 4-4-2 way worse than that of Real Madrid.

IMO the best solution would be going back to false 9 and stick to plan A like we used to do. Not perfect but at least we can keep 3 midfielders and 2 wingers this way. Or at least sign a new striker because besides tap ins Suarez doesn't provide much "real striker" quality these days, Roberto crossing on Suarez wont do shit so we might as well try to go for Cou longshots as our plan B and have a tall striker on the bench.

MTL_Barca said:

Messi is the GOAT but i think it's way harder to build a team around him than for example Ronaldo. You can use Ronaldo as your target and then just do what Real did and get a good working midfield and a support striker around that.

With Messi it's more difficult. You either give up on a tall striker or wings or a 3 man midfield with him because he seems to always play the same position no matter what anyway. With Messi as a number 10 you put immense pressure on the double pivot since he can't defend and it results in "giving the ball to Messi" as your midfield plan because that's just how it will play out 9 out of 10 times.

The only way to have 3 midfielders with Messi is him playing as "wing" or CF. We all know how RW Messi looks like in reality and Messi as false 9 means no real striker in the box...that's kinda tough for a coach.

Reals solution with Ronaldo being more of a striker than a LW these days is Marcelo and to an extent Carvajal. Having wingbacks like that (especially Marcelo) gives you so much more freedom with your formation because your LB pretty much covers two positions at once just like Alves did. But Alba and Roberto/Semedo aren't good enough to do that and our CMs aren't on Isco/Modric/Kroos level what makes our 4-4-2 way worse than that of Real Madrid.

IMO the best solution would be going back to false 9 and stick to plan A like we used to do. Not perfect but at least we can keep 3 midfielders and 2 wingers this way. Or at least sign a new striker because besides tap ins Suarez doesn't provide much "real striker" quality these days, Roberto crossing on Suarez wont do shit so we might as well try to go for Cou longshots as our plan B and have a tall striker on the bench.

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Yes, Messi biggest problem is that he tactically conditions a team. That’s his biggest weakness.

MessiCam said:

On to the more pressing matter of this World Cup...

Judging from the Croatia coach and Lovren's comments he will be up against another low block.

Messi things...

Click to expand...

Low block or no low block if he goes missing or fails to be to be decisive in a 2nd consecutive match, Argentina drop points and crash out of the group stage the brunt of the blame will fall on his shoulders and most of it will be deserved.

He can get a pass once, but no more excuses.There are no do overs in the World Cup. He's the best in the world and probably history, time for him to turn up.

Barcaman said:

Well said, doc

It's the same as with Real fluking to 3 CLs. All of a sudden, they've been a better team and all our trophies are meaningless.

I do hope things even out in the end. We need to be optimistic.

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oooooooh you better believe it

In fact, I'll wager my entire vintage shirt collection on it

+ all Calvin Klein annuities from zzzze Beach campaign! Double or nothing

NorthernCule said:

Low block or no low block if he goes missing or fails to be to be decisive in a 2nd consecutive match, Argentina drop points and crash out of the group stage the brunt of the blame will fall on his shoulders and most of it will be deserved.

He can get a pass once, but no more excuses.There are no do overs in the World Cup. He's the best in the world and probably history, time for him to turn up.

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Yeah, Messi alone plays for Argentina. The other 10 players don't exist.

I really can't deal with this sort stupidity.

Alik said:

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] You're plain wrong in saying there is no pressure in La Liga.

Way to devalue it.

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There is no sudden death pressure.

La liga:
Imagine playing round 5 at Betis.
If you lose 2:3, who cares?
Are you dead?
Is the championship done?
Are you KO'd for that season?
= no. You will play better in the next 4-5 rounds and you will neutralize that slip.

You play at Sevilla/Atletico in a round 18.
You lose 0:1.
Are you KO'd?

That is my point.
There is pressure in La liga, but there is always a part: if you lose, you will ALWAYS have time to neutralize those mistakes in upcoming rounds.
There is no "100% urgency".
There is SOME urgency and pressure.
But whatever happens, you will usually have lots of time to fix those mistakes and slips in upcoming weeks or months.

While in a CL against Roma/Juve/anyone, when you start losing 0:2 in the 45th minute, you are in big problems.
You have ONLY 45 minutes to score 2 goals or you are DEAD for this season.
You won't get another chance next week at Las Palmas (or 18 matches till the end of a season) to neutralize your past mistakes.

In that sense, imo, our players are in "a comfort zone".
They know that RM will usually make more mistakes against small teams and so, even if we lose from time to time in La liga, NOTHING significant will happen.
We know that we are too good for La liga, more or less, over 38 rounds.

And then, when we come to a CL and when we start losing, we are in deep problems and can't seem to wake up.
Haven't you had that feeling 100s of times with our team in a CL?
= we are losing, and it seems that we don't have any response, any urgency, we play as if we have 10 days to create something.
While with Rm, for some reason, if they need a goal in a CL in the 85th minute, they will create 10 chances in the last 5+5 minutes through: middle, crosses, solo actions.
YOu know that feeling: Real is losing 1:2 in the 80th minute in a CL, but you "know" that they will score 2 goals, probably in the 88th and in 94th. One will be a pen, other will be Ronaldo's header.
On the other hand, when Barca is losing 1:2 in the 80th minute, more or less, nothing will happen.
We won't get the ball at all, or we will pass it slowly, try some dribbles and at best, we will attempt 1-2 shots. (Ok, there are also rare matches like Psg 6:1).

But now, try to think about this:
1. Barca's motivation in a CL's KO matches.
And Real's motivation.
2. Barca's response and urgency when they are losing in a CL matches.
And then Real's response and urgency.
3. how many times Barca was able to turn the KO match around lately?
How many time Real has done the same?
4. how many times Barca scored (except against Psg) in the last 5-10 minutes?
How many times (lol, 100?) has Real done the same?

Barca became a complacent, entitled and "a comfort zone" team.
We know that we are kings of La liga.
We will win in the end, no matter what.
And so we don't have too much pressure or urgency, imo.

On the other hand, when we play in a CL, we face exactly the same problems in each season.
Add to this that Barca is Messi-dependant and that Messi has some mental strength issues lately.
And now, mix our complacent-comfort zone team with Messi who sulks under pressure lately (when we start to lose) and you get Atletico, Juventus, Roma over and over again, like looking the same match all the time.

MessiCam said:

They were once comparable but not now. Ronaldo gave up his football for numbers, coincidentally to win Ballon D'Or's while Messi is still doing what he's always done which is play the game in a manner that very few can or have been able to.

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There is a word for this: delusion.

This shit (sorry for being harsh) exists only on Barca's forum:
1. when RM is winning titles: their crossing style sucks. Our Barca's style is awesome, and we will stick to it, even though we aren't winning anything in Europe anymore.
So, RM is banging titles, but we are "the moral winners", because we play our unique (losing) style, lol.
2. when CR7 is scoring goals, key goals and winning trophies, Messi is again a winner.
Because there is so much more in football than goals and trophies.

Basically, in short:
1. when Barca and Messi win=we are winning because we are the best
2. when RM and CR7 win=they are winning because of luck, the devil, refs, opponents mistakes. And we are still true winners, because in football there is much more than goals, trophies and winning, lol.

When Barca is winning sextuples=stats and trophies matter.
When Messi is banging 50 goals per season=stats and goals matter.
When Messi and Barca start losing=there is much more to football than stats

MessiCam said:

So no, Messi and Barca are not mentally weak, what we're witnessing is the culmination of a rot that started some time ago with the signings of players like Rakitic, Gomes, Arda, Vidal, Paulinho... Signings that are neither here nor there which the likes of you are clamouring for more of instead of what makes us and others great. More of the same is what you will be left with...

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I have said already, I SOOOO want us to buy Thiago now and to play Cou-Thiago-Busi in 433.
Then I'll prepare 1000 portions of popcorn and read million of alibies why aren't we winning shit.
Because it is 2018/19 and it won't work anymore.

Remember:
1. No Xavi-Iniesta anymore
2. teams learned how to play against our 433
3. Messi was younger and playing at a RW
4. we had 2 wingers who defended (or at least one, Pedro)
5. we had Alves as a false midfielder, we actually played with 4 midfielders and 3 attackers who were defending

Today:
Thiago-Coutinho, lol.
Teams evolved against us.
Messi is not a RW, but dropping deep.
In attack: Suarez, Messi and Dembele defending, lol. Behind them Coutinho defending, lol? This sounds awesome...
No Alves.

I mean, if everything will click perfectly, this team could only be a poor, poor, poor copy of that team on every level.

MessiCam said:

I get that people like the idea of Rakitic, and I'd be open to his use as a substitute, but I can't agree that he belongs here. He is not a ball playing midfielder... The reason he was so good for Lucho in the 2014/15 season was due to the more direct brand of football played and him having a stacked right flank of Messi and Alves. When Messi in, everything but theory, abandoned the right flank and Alves transferred out he was horribly exposed for the limited player he is. Last season he was back to his best again because Valverde played him in his preferred double pivot but this setup hinders Busquets, Iniesta, Paulinho and Messi so I'm not happy about that... For the most part when a 3 man midfield was employed he shat the bed like against Levante and Sociedad at seasons end. He struggles to function in a 4-3-3.

As for Paulinho, yes he delivered in terms of goals but Valverde's system goes against everything positive about his play. He as opposed to Rakitic functions in 4-3-3 but not in a double pivot where he has to play wide. He can't even play in the double pivot because defense is not his strength. His strengths are pocketing players and getting in the box.

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It is true, that when we signed rakitic, i was in quite disbelief, why would we want him and how would he adapt. I wasnt a fan but damn he was unbreakable. Talking about mental strength, and he was one of the few who actually helped messi a bit, giving him the ball at the right time(bayern semifinal goal) it is what it is, there are better options then him for sure, but i like him right now, especially his attitude, and as i saw, so does messi. Messi needs good midlefield, and option with front three of coutinho, messi, dembouz and midlefield of busi, raki and thiago(i wish) would be near a perfect fit for him. I dont know, im not a manager but that is most likely possible and i dont think that is a bad option either. Ofc, suarez is a fat cunt, but thats something else. But options with busi, raki, thiago(?), coutinho, messi, roberto, paulinho, arthur and youngsters for all midlefield spots doesnt sound that bad at all, depending on formation. Thiago and some other wc signing( griez is a no deal, so maybe two high profile mids are in the mix if we are smart enough) could be a giant step forward. I dont know,but it sounds good.

MessiCam said:

Yeah, Messi alone plays for Argentina. The other 10 players don't exist.

I really can't deal with this sort stupidity.

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Get off his nuts. Clear as day you're deluded by your fanboyism. I'm a huge fan of Messi as well but that doesn't stop me from thinking rationally.

I will praise him if he plays well as he usually does and criticize him on the rare occasions his play disappoints. I'm well aware of the limitations of this teammates on the NT.

Can't take folks like you seriously that will come up with every excuse under the sun to defend his poor performances. Even the best have days off, don't take it personally.