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Thread: 10 - Lionel Messi

  1. #1246
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    Quote Originally Posted by kilian View Post
    Absolutely everyone that watched Pele live said the same thing to me - physically he was a beast and that very much complimented his tehnical capabilites. So I ask you this - don`t you think that that "beast" would be much faster and more physically powerful today, with modern training methods? I am pretty sure that he would be.
    Well, yes we don't necessarily need to agree on everything...
    I think Pele wasn't the most skillful player of his time, he was just an outstandingly great combination of all possible individual capabilities. One could hardly mention anything he wouldn't have been great in or well above average.
    At the same time I think that if he would be trained at Santos or Botafogo today, he would be much better physically, would have much more capacitance and counteraction, but would be still a bit slow for today's standards. Players like Messi, Neymar, Marcello, or even Di Maria, etc. have better techniques and speed. Ronaldinho was much better in skills than Pele was...

    If I`m not mistaken you were a pro player, so I think you can agree with me that football training today is at a much higher level than it was back then. It would be interesting to hear about football training back then.
    Training is on a higher level for sure, but the most important things simply cannot be taught. Outstanding skill can't be taught, those can be practiced and practiced to be used in conjunction with less obvious skills. In my time we were running a lot in training but running with the ball? Way less compared to the today's standards.
    Training was very different back then...
    - no training the forthcoming day following a game... - only some swimming or sauna (!)
    - no gym exercises for the upper body
    - very few flexibility exercises for the joints, so folks often got injured when trying to handle a high ball with their feet
    - running too often 100m or 60m - full speed - but much less medium-speed runs
    - too much 10km runs in slow speed
    - half of the players still used to smoke...
    I can go on for three pages more...

    If he was technically weaker than Messi, it is by a very small margin. I can`t agree that Messi is much better than him in that regard. Messi is a monster, he can do everything with the ball and his dribbles are out of this world. But the same thing could be said for Maradona. Cruijff too.
    We disagree here, sorry. Maradona was great but Messi is much better, and better being half as aggressive.

    Also, as far as I recall Maradona could do exactly what you say about Messi - influence the whole game. Cruijff especially.
    Influencing the game back then - to me subjectively - is something that Beckenbauer or Zico did more. But talking about influence, how about Iniesta?
    Last edited by Potroh; 11th January 2017 at 11:49 PM.

  2. #1247
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    Players nowadays are naturally more talented.
    Even natural lung capacity gets measured and plays a factor in how successful you'll be.

  3. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Origami View Post
    Players nowadays are naturally more talented.
    Not at all...
    Einstein wasn't more talented than Aristotle, John Lennon wasn't more talented than Bach, the Indian priests knew the Mahabharata by heart 4000 years ago (2800 pages), Napoleon wasn't a better general than the Romans, etc. It is a modern misconception only...
    Our age is capable to bring out these natural talents more and to do it systematically from a very tender age.

    As Einstein often said: a genius comprises 10% of talent and 90% of diligence or zealous hard work...

  4. #1249
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    Sorry to say, but they are. Because of more scrutinous selection programs. Advancements in technology made that happen.
    Players nowadays are rated on a bigger number of qualities than back in them days.

    Edit: I understand the misunderstanding. I am not saying people altogether have gotten naturally more talented through the years. I am saying modern day football is occupied by players that are naturally more talented than back in the days.
    For example: they might not have measured lung capacity back in the days but now it plays a role because...well the competition does it.
    And max lung capacity potential is a form of natural talent as well. You can train it, but your limit will always be determined largely by birth.

    What I am saying is that a lot of players that made it as professional football players back then would not even make it passed current evaluations.
    A lot of people always argue that you can't compare past players with current players because of better training facilities and in those circumstances past players would also better if they played in our time. I would go as far as to say he threshold for needed talent might have been lower and past players wouldn't even be scouted by modern-day teams even before they get a chance to get into fancy excercise programs.

    So, yes, I believe the gap is huge and, yes, it's not unlikely to assume that Messi is the most talented.
    Last edited by Origami; 12th January 2017 at 01:03 AM.

  5. #1250
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    If I am not mistaken, games back then were much slower but also much more physical. Players, especially forwards and attacking players had much less protection against opposing team players (mostly defenders) from the referee. A lot of fouls that are called today, even some of the yellow or red-card warranted offenses were considered the norm. Also, modern technologies and medicine have strengthened/enhanced/prolonged the physique/abilities/career etc of contemporary players. Their jerseys are lighter, their cleats are better and their match balls are better and more nimble.

    Therefore it is hard to rate players from different generations in my opinion. I for one think players like Pele, Garrincha and Maradona would have equally excelled in today's game, if not more.

    I didn't really watch Pele play as he was way before my time (the first time I saw Pele play was in the movie "Escape to Victory"), but I did watch some of Maradona's games. To me he was extremely skillful, certainly not less than Messi. I abhor him as a person but I have to say footballing-wise, he was toppppp notch.
    Last edited by Luftstalag14; 12th January 2017 at 02:44 AM.
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  6. #1251
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    Messi's freekicks have been unpredictable now. His last two freekicks have been targeted on the Gk's near post. He usually shoots on the far side of the keeper that it became predictable. I'm happy to see that he's still working on his freekicks.

  7. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Potroh View Post
    Well, yes we don't necessarily need to agree on everything...
    I think Pele wasn't the most skillful player of his time, he was just an outstandingly great combination of all possible individual capabilities. One could hardly mention anything he wouldn't have been great in or well above average.
    At the same time I think that if he would be trained at Santos or Botafogo today, he would be much better physically, would have much more capacitance and counteraction, but would be still a bit slow for today's standards. Players like Messi, Neymar, Marcello, or even Di Maria, etc. have better techniques and speed. Ronaldinho was much better in skills than Pele was...
    I heard people to say that Garrincha was technically maybe even better than Pele, but Pele was the golden boy so he got all the glory. Probably because he was so good at everything, so people considered him the best.

    Training is on a higher level for sure, but the most important things simply cannot be taught. Outstanding skill can't be taught, those can be practiced and practiced to be used in conjunction with less obvious skills. In my time we were running a lot in training but running with the ball? Way less compared to the today's standards.
    Training was very different back then...
    - no training the forthcoming day following a game... - only some swimming or sauna (!)
    - no gym exercises for the upper body
    - very few flexibility exercises for the joints, so folks often got injured when trying to handle a high ball with their feet
    - running too often 100m or 60m - full speed - but much less medium-speed runs
    - too much 10km runs in slow speed
    - half of the players still used to smoke...
    I can go on for three pages more...
    Interesting stuff. I myself train a lot and read a lot about training and human physiology etc. so it`s an interesting subject to me.

    We disagree here, sorry. Maradona was great but Messi is much better, and better being half as aggressive.
    Well, I have to say that you are the first that I know of, that said something like this. As I said earlier, many people have their favourite amongst the top 5, that is based on subjective criteria. But I never heard or read that anyone said that Messi is a much better footballer than Maradona. I mean, sometimes when I see what Messi does on the pitch I yell something like "he`s unbeliveable, he`s the best ever, I love him", but when emotions cool off and you look at it as objectively as one could try to be, he simply isn`t that much better. And when I say that I definitely don`t diminish Messi`s capabilities, because in my personal opinion Maradona was the most naturally talented footballer that ever played the game, before Messi came. Now, I would say that they are about the same level, which is ridiculuosly high.

    Influencing the game back then - to me subjectively - is something that Beckenbauer or Zico did more. But talking about influence, how about Iniesta?
    I didn`t watch Beckenbauer live, so can`t say much about him. I saw some clips, but nothing special, so I can`t really say anything more than that I agree with you on that part. Zico too, he was a fantastic footballer, but a level beneath the best.

    About Iniesta, first I have to say that I really like that guy. He is a magician, one of the most clutch players I have seen in my life. I think he will be remembered in history as a footballer of a level slightly beneath the best, up there with Puskas, Zico, Platini etc. But he had the luxury to be inconsistent at times, because he had a master controller of the game by his side - Xavi. If we talk about influencing the game, I would say that Xavi is a level above Iniesta in that regard. Probably the best central midfielder of all time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    If I am not mistaken, games back then were much slower but also much more physical. Players, especially forwards and attacking players had much less protection against opposing team players (mostly defenders) from the referee. A lot of fouls that are called today, even some of the yellow or red-card warranted offenses were considered the norm. Also, modern technologies and medicine have strengthened/enhanced/prolonged the physique/abilities/career etc of contemporary players. Their jerseys are lighter, their cleats are better and their match balls are better and more nimble.

    Therefore it is hard to rate players from different generations in my opinion. I for one think players like Pele, Garrincha and Maradona would have equally excelled in today's game, if not more.

    I didn't really watch Pele play as he was way before my time (the first time I saw Pele play was in the movie "Escape to Victory"), but I did watch some of Maradona's games. To me he was extremely skillful, certainly not less than Messi. I abhor him as a person but I have to say footballing-wise, he was toppppp notch.
    I agree with everything. Well said.
    Last edited by kilian; 12th January 2017 at 09:11 AM.

  8. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaFCB View Post
    It really made no sense they renewed Suarez before Messi. Those idiots should had their priorities straight. They knew there'd be no money. Call me crazy, but the only reason for that is they want to sell Messi for the new stadium. And as this could hamper the renewal negotiations, they can say Messi left because he didn't want to renew and they did their best, etc. We'll see.
    It was Messi's wish to renew Suarez before he'll sign new contract. I'm not worried, we'll get a lot of new money from Nike and Rakuten in summer and Messi will renew then if not before.

  9. #1254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Origami View Post
    I am not saying people altogether have gotten naturally more talented through the years. I am saying modern day football is occupied by players that are naturally more talented than back in the days.
    For example: they might not have measured lung capacity back in the days but now it plays a role because...well the competition does it.
    So, yes, I believe the gap is huge and, yes, it's not unlikely to assume that Messi is the most talented.
    I don't think that Armin Hary, who run 100m for the first time in 10 sec in 1960 would have been a less talented runner than Usain Bolt. He was shorter and probably had half the muscles altogether, but definitely not less talent. Back then athletes were not "cultivated" as much as they are now and they did not sacrifice their own bodies to be potential "supermans". This is a different world in sports, where he/she earns millions but at the same time also sacrifices more than ever.

    I think you are talking about how the game became much more scientific in selections, physical states, etc. That's a fact, no doubt about that.
    I strongly feel talents are always there, although there's also a kind of sinus-curve, when talents appear in a particular period and later there is a drought for some time...

  10. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    If I am not mistaken, games back then were much slower but also much more physical. Players, especially forwards and attacking players had much less protection against opposing team players (mostly defenders) from the referee. A lot of fouls that are called today, even some of the yellow or red-card warranted offenses were considered the norm. Also, modern technologies and medicine have strengthened/enhanced/prolonged the physique/abilities/career etc of contemporary players. Their jerseys are lighter, their cleats are better and their match balls are better and more nimble.
    I strongly feel the opposite is true. In my time players were definitely LESS physical, the entire game was way less violent, etc.
    30-40 years ago, with a few exceptions, the defenders were not like gladiators who'd rush against you, as if their lives depended on it, and the entire game was less harsh and violent. A mediocre yellow card for an awful foul nowadays would have meant a red one back then.
    Modern technology, medicine most definitely changed this game, but changed it to be much more physical.

    Therefore it is hard to rate players from different generations in my opinion. I for one think players like Pele, Garrincha and Maradona would have equally excelled in today's game, if not more.
    Yes, most probably yes, but we don't know that, because an overall faster game, smaller places, less time, etc. can change everything. When I say that I think Messi is unique, I try to judge it by what I see today, which might be misleading. So you are right and perhaps the best is not to compare geniuses belonging to very different generations...

  11. #1256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Messi983 View Post
    It was Messi's wish to renew Suarez before he'll sign new contract. I'm not worried, we'll get a lot of new money from Nike and Rakuten in summer and Messi will renew then if not before.
    I was taking into account Oscar Grau's recent words, about the club needing to have "common sense" when renewing Messi. That pissed off the dressing room, and even LE said some words about it. It's worrying when a club CEO spews bullshit to the press. It surely pissed off Leo and his entourage.

  12. #1257
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    Messi won't leave. 100% sure. He has fans for teammates ffs.

  13. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Origami View Post
    Messi won't leave. 100% sure. He has fans for teammates ffs.
    He still should be pampered all the time. Those kind of statements just show the stupid people that work for this board. It's not the 1st time they say stuff like that. Forgot Faus? Or the poll they had for the socis, asking if they would like to sell Messi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaFCB View Post
    I was taking into account Oscar Grau's recent words, about the club needing to have "common sense" when renewing Messi. That pissed off the dressing room, and even LE said some words about it. It's worrying when a club CEO spews bullshit to the press. It surely pissed off Leo and his entourage.
    They really are complete idiots. I think it`s a rare sight to see such a big difference between the quality of players and competence of the board.

  15. #1260
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    I'm glad we have someone like Potroh on here. Always good to have the perspective of someone who can say GOAT and actually mean it!

    The more we see Messi bail us out with his divine presence, the worse I feel about how the board treats him, how we have a clueless coach, how he is still compared to frauds like Ronaldo, how he still gets attacked for the silliest of things...Jeez...

    I don't think people understand what other teams would do for a Lionel Messi. This corrupt band of rascals we have on the board have taken D10S for granted. Common sense it seems...GTFO
    f. Signatures must not slow down the forum (no gifs, maximum size 30kb and 700 wide x 200 tall pixels for images OR 5 lines of text (in english/catalan/castellano)