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Thread: 10 - Lionel Messi - v5

  1. #7006
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAK View Post
    That's the dumbest arguments you can find in sports science these days.

    People who use that do it for a medical reason to live a normal life like everyone else who don't need it. It doesn't give them an unfair advantage. It's a disadvantage for Messi to have had to go through that procedure and use that medicine.
    The dumbest argument you can use in sport these days?

    It's funny you mention that, as there has been alot of debate recently about TUE's, and whether or not it's fair to let athletes who use them compete. Yes Messi had a medical condition and needed treatment, but to suggest that taking HGH for years had no physical benefits for Messi outside of making him taller is wishful thinking on your part. HGH is an unbelievable drug.

    Barcelona do not like talking about Messi and his HGH use, they are very tight lipped whenever pressed on the matter. If I was a professional athlete, I would like to know if someone I had competed with had taken HGH for a decade, regardless of how good their natural talents were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    What opinion again? Should he take it? Yes. Did he make him the player he is today? Mostly no.

    Where is the evidence that he benefited from the HGH?
    There is no evidence, it's definitely up for debate, thus I asked for your opinion. We won't ever know exactly how much if at all it benefited him, but suggested a drug used by some of the best atheletes in american history had no beneficial effect on Messi whatsoever outside of making him average height is ignoring the facts a little on what HGH exactly does.

    Bigger Ligaments, bigger tendons, bigger heart, bigger muscles, denser bones etc. HGH does all of this, it's a stretch to say it didn't benefit him at all, people will always talk about this with Messi, the only way to really silence the critics would be to release his medical records from his teenage years onwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    The dumbest argument you can use in sport these days?

    It's funny you mention that, as there has been alot of debate recently about TUE's, and whether or not it's fair to let athletes who use them compete. Yes Messi had a medical condition and needed treatment, but to suggest that taking HGH for years had no physical benefits for Messi outside of making him taller is wishful thinking on your part. HGH is an unbelievable drug.

    Barcelona do not like talking about Messi and his HGH use, they are very tight lipped whenever pressed on the matter. If I was a professional athlete, I would like to know if someone I had competed with had taken HGH for a decade, regardless of how good their natural talents were.
    You alleged that Messi benefited from HGH as you previously claimed "makes you bigger, bigger heart, bigger lungs, bigger bones, bigger ligaments & tendons and muscles", where is the evidence? Does Messi have a bigger heart and bigger lungs? Which explains he has one of the lowest workrates of all forwards/offensive players? Messi has bigger bones, bigger ligaments & tendons and muscles? This is indicated by what?

    When you are sick/impaired, you take whatever that is needed to make you function normally. What is there to say?

    If you are an athlete and you have a problem with Messi using HGH, petition to FIFA or refuse to play on the same pitch as he is. Simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luftstalag14 View Post
    You alleged that Messi benefited from HGH as you previously claimed "makes you bigger, bigger heart, bigger lungs, bigger bones, bigger ligaments & tendons and muscles", where is the evidence? Does Messi have a bigger heart and bigger lungs? Which explains he has one of the lowest workrates of all forwards/offensive players? Messi has bigger bones, bigger ligaments & tendons and muscles? This is indicated by what?

    When you are sick/impaired, you take whatever that is needed to make you function normally. What is there to say?

    If you are an athlete and you have a problem with Messi using HGH, petition to FIFA or refuse to play on the same pitch as he is. Simple.
    https://draxe.com/human-growth-hormone/

    I watch loads of boxing, football is probably my second sport in all fairness. Combat sports are full of PEDs and I took a massive interest in them a few years back, drugs are absolutely everywhere in sports. Oscar de la hoya, Shane Mosley & Evander Holyfield, who are two of the last 20 years top 5 welterweights, and a top 5 heavyweight of the last 20 years, have all been involved in HGH scandals, along with A-Rod, arguably the best baseball player of the last 20 years. HGH works.

    Messi definitely needed it to grow to a normal height, the question is how much it benefited him past this, if at all. People saying you can't be given technique, absolutely correct, but technique gets worse as you get fatigued, and technique can be improved by muscle strength. The ability, for example, to run just 2 steps further in a sprint before you get fatigued is HUGE.

    As an example, boxers don't take PED's to punch harder, that's down to technique, they take PED's so they can maintain their technique for longer periods of time without becoming fatigued. The same thing would apply to most sports, HGH would never have made Messi more technical, but it may have given him other benefits that indirectly effected his overall game.

  5. #7010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    Sigh... I never said he shouldn't have taken it, I asked for people's opinion on it, and got a massively defensive reaction.
    No. Don't change your stance because people called you out. You weren't asking anyones opinion. You were, but you also claimed this

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    Without something which is essentially a performance enhancing drug, Messi would not be as good as he is today. There is a good argument it isn't fair he plays professional sport, as some of his talents are not from god or genetics but from a chemical given to him to help him grow. Messi should be about 5'2......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    There is no evidence, it's definitely up for debate, thus I asked for your opinion. We won't ever know exactly how much if at all it benefited him, but suggested a drug used by some of the best atheletes in american history had no beneficial effect on Messi whatsoever outside of making him average height is ignoring the facts a little on what HGH exactly does.

    Bigger Ligaments, bigger tendons, bigger heart, bigger muscles, denser bones etc. HGH does all of this, it's a stretch to say it didn't benefit him at all, people will always talk about this with Messi, the only way to really silence the critics would be to release his medical records from his teenage years onwards.
    And how does physical aspect makes a complete player like messi?

    He is not pure physical player, although one might note to dribble pass several players require a huge amount of energy.

    But how does bones and muscles affect technical matters, the skill, the eyes, ability to view a game like as if he is seeing it from a TV at home. Yes, the physic made it possible but it's only a fragment.

    If it's only physique then many other athletes with stronger physique should emerges, scores and control games like messi does. It's like in Ronaldo case. Yes he has crazy physic that belp him in scoring goals but never as complete as Messi is.

  7. #7012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    https://draxe.com/human-growth-hormone/

    I watch loads of boxing, football is probably my second sport in all fairness. Combat sports are full of PEDs and I took a massive interest in them a few years back, drugs are absolutely everywhere in sports. Oscar de la hoya, Shane Mosley & Evander Holyfield, who are two of the last 20 years top 5 welterweights, and a top 5 heavyweight of the last 20 years, have all been involved in HGH scandals, along with A-Rod, arguably the best baseball player of the last 20 years. HGH works.

    Messi definitely needed it to grow to a normal height, the question is how much it benefited him past this, if at all. People saying you can't be given technique, absolutely correct, but technique gets worse as you get fatigued, and technique can be improved by muscle strength. The ability, for example, to run just 2 steps further in a sprint before you get fatigued is HUGE.

    As an example, boxers don't take PED's to punch harder, that's down to technique, they take PED's so they can maintain their technique for longer periods of time without becoming fatigued. The same thing would apply to most sports, HGH would never have made Messi more technical, but it may have given him other benefits that indirectly effected his overall game.
    It is my opinion that it's important not to blur the lines between therapeutic use and performance enhancement.

    Messi's condition is such that he had a shortage of this powerful natural hormone which if not treated could have led to a plethora of other issues. If left untreated he would have had a below average heart, lungs, bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles as you've so aptly put. That his treatment, to bring his HGH levels in line with the average human being and those he competed with and which was discontinued once he reached adulthood, has become a debate is quite scandalous in my opinion.

    I will now ask for your opinion... Does Messi appear to be a freak of nature for anything other than his footballing ability? Consider his physical stature, his injury history and that he has long since stopped using this hormone before you answer.
    Last edited by MessiCam; 3rd November 2017 at 07:20 AM.

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    Messi had such huge injury history till 2008 and we still have people questioning his 'makes you bigger, bigger heart, bigger lungs, bigger bones, bigger ligaments & tendons and muscles' for his technique and other physical benefits from the drug!!

  9. #7014
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    Quote Originally Posted by MessiCam View Post
    It is my opinion that it's important not to blur the lines between therapeutic use and performance enhancement.

    Messi's condition is such that he had a shortage of this powerful natural hormone which if not treated could have led to a plethora of other issues. If left untreated he would have had a below average heart, lungs, bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles as you've so aptly put. That his treatment, to bring his HGH levels in line with the average human being and those he competed with and which was discontinued once he reached adulthood, has become a debate is quite scandalous in my opinion.

    I will now ask for your opinion... Does Messi appear to be a freak of nature for anything other than his footballing ability? Consider his physical stature, his injury history and that he has long since stopped using this hormone before you answer.



    it's definitely hard to determine at which point the use of HGH is simply to fix a medical issue, and when it goes past that to give an advantage. Without a clone of Messi to compare we will never really know, if that makes sense. I mentioned Bradley Wiggins as it turns out he had a long term TUE for an asthma medication, which is a steroid which aids breathing. The issue with Wiggins is, that drug would benefit someone who didn't have asthma, and he was taking it preemptive to any conditions surfacing, it's a really tricky thing to deal with and Russia have made complaints regarding TUE's being handed out favorably to certain athletes/countries.

    Dozens of Russian athletes have been caught using a drug called Melodonium, Sharpiniova the tennis player got a 1-2 year ban for having it in her system, the same as Povetkin, a heavyweight boxer. Melodonium is a medication given to people to aid blood flow, this obviously also increases athletic performance, so we had dozens of Russian atheletes who convieniently all developed conditions which needed treatment for Melodonium

    I am not saying Messi's case is similar to this as he took it when he was growing up, I am just trying to explain there is a thin line between therapeutic use and performance enhancement, and unfortunately with some drugs you can't really have one without the other. But the issue is, how did whoever medic who treated Messi know at which point the HGH took him past what would have been 'normal' for his genetics, there is no way they could have known what his natural height should be, for all we know with normal growth hormone Messi may have been more like 5'6-5'6 (around his dad's height), and got an extra 2 inches artificially.

    His strength on the ball and ability to twist and change direction at such speeds are pretty much unique to him, in the way we haven't really seen another footballer who can change direction at such speed, Messi is incredible to watch and he makes it look so natural. Ronaldo is incredible, and being a man united fan I obviously have a bit of loyalty to him, but Ronaldo looks like he tries so hard, Messi just looks like he was born to do it.

    I don't think anyone can really say for certain whether or not HGH benefited Messi past the point at which it became an unfair advantage, no one can claim Messi is a cheat, but no one can say his abilities are 100% natural either. If Messi was born in the 1950s and hit age 20 in the 1970s, HGH would not have been readily available so he probably would not have been a professional footballer due to his height, Ronaldo would still have been a great.

    So im my opinion, is Messi an intentional cheat? Absolutely not, but he has had an artificial aid that other people are not allowed.

  10. #7015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    it's definitely hard to determine at which point the use of HGH is simply to fix a medical issue, and when it goes past that to give an advantage. Without a clone of Messi to compare we will never really know, if that makes sense. I mentioned Bradley Wiggins as it turns out he had a long term TUE for an asthma medication, which is a steroid which aids breathing. The issue with Wiggins is, that drug would benefit someone who didn't have asthma, and he was taking it preemptive to any conditions surfacing, it's a really tricky thing to deal with and Russia have made complaints regarding TUE's being handed out favorably to certain athletes/countries.

    Dozens of Russian athletes have been caught using a drug called Melodonium, Sharpiniova the tennis player got a 1-2 year ban for having it in her system, the same as Povetkin, a heavyweight boxer. Melodonium is a medication given to people to aid blood flow, this obviously also increases athletic performance, so we had dozens of Russian atheletes who convieniently all developed conditions which needed treatment for Melodonium

    I am not saying Messi's case is similar to this as he took it when he was growing up, I am just trying to explain there is a thin line between therapeutic use and performance enhancement, and unfortunately with some drugs you can't really have one without the other. But the issue is, how did whoever medic who treated Messi know at which point the HGH took him past what would have been 'normal' for his genetics, there is no way they could have known what his natural height should be, for all we know with normal growth hormone Messi may have been more like 5'6-5'6 (around his dad's height), and got an extra 2 inches artificially.

    His strength on the ball and ability to twist and change direction at such speeds are pretty much unique to him, in the way we haven't really seen another footballer who can change direction at such speed, Messi is incredible to watch and he makes it look so natural. Ronaldo is incredible, and being a man united fan I obviously have a bit of loyalty to him, but Ronaldo looks like he tries so hard, Messi just looks like he was born to do it.

    I don't think anyone can really say for certain whether or not HGH benefited Messi past the point at which it became an unfair advantage, no one can claim Messi is a cheat, but no one can say his abilities are 100% natural either. If Messi was born in the 1950s and hit age 20 in the 1970s, HGH would not have been readily available so he probably would not have been a professional footballer due to his height, Ronaldo would still have been a great.

    So im my opinion, is Messi an intentional cheat? Absolutely not, but he has had an artificial aid that other people are not allowed.
    But this is just the thing, Ronaldo and other footballers had normal levels of HGH while Messi didn’t. It is not that Messi had normal levels and was still allowed dispensation... One could conversely make an argument that without normal levels of HGH Ronaldo and other footballers would have been useless too. You’re looking at this from only one point of view which is often the case when one tries to prove a point or to create doubt.

    Further all your other case studies have no bearing on this issue and are not even remotely similar because he doesn’t use the substance and hasn’t for a long time.

    Also, that ability of Messi to twist and change direction at speed was very evident even before he received any treatments. It’s due to his low centre of gravity and balance. There’s is another player, Yeferson Soteldo, whom Barça are interested in... He is 5 foot 3 inches tall, no HGH treatments etc. Google him and watch him twist and turn at speed and pay attention to his incredible strength for a guy that small.

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    I dont see the benefits from the hgh in his play. He is not some physical beast. A short guy (despite hgh) instead of a midget with the same style as when he was 5 years old. He has bad stamina as well. So its just talk to downplay god given talent.
    If you think about hgh its better to look at a guy like Bale who added way more muscles in a season than possible.
    I dont think football is clean either but I suspect it to be more about recovery than hgh. So blood cycling (fuentes). With that in mind Messi’s italian doctor trips are more suspect than his hgh use as a teen imo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    https://draxe.com/human-growth-hormone/

    I watch loads of boxing, football is probably my second sport in all fairness. Combat sports are full of PEDs and I took a massive interest in them a few years back, drugs are absolutely everywhere in sports. Oscar de la hoya, Shane Mosley & Evander Holyfield, who are two of the last 20 years top 5 welterweights, and a top 5 heavyweight of the last 20 years, have all been involved in HGH scandals, along with A-Rod, arguably the best baseball player of the last 20 years. HGH works.

    Messi definitely needed it to grow to a normal height, the question is how much it benefited him past this, if at all. People saying you can't be given technique, absolutely correct, but technique gets worse as you get fatigued, and technique can be improved by muscle strength. The ability, for example, to run just 2 steps further in a sprint before you get fatigued is HUGE.

    As an example, boxers don't take PED's to punch harder, that's down to technique, they take PED's so they can maintain their technique for longer periods of time without becoming fatigued. The same thing would apply to most sports, HGH would never have made Messi more technical, but it may have given him other benefits that indirectly effected his overall game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gordo101 View Post
    it's definitely hard to determine at which point the use of HGH is simply to fix a medical issue, and when it goes past that to give an advantage. Without a clone of Messi to compare we will never really know, if that makes sense. I mentioned Bradley Wiggins as it turns out he had a long term TUE for an asthma medication, which is a steroid which aids breathing. The issue with Wiggins is, that drug would benefit someone who didn't have asthma, and he was taking it preemptive to any conditions surfacing, it's a really tricky thing to deal with and Russia have made complaints regarding TUE's being handed out favorably to certain athletes/countries.

    Dozens of Russian athletes have been caught using a drug called Melodonium, Sharpiniova the tennis player got a 1-2 year ban for having it in her system, the same as Povetkin, a heavyweight boxer. Melodonium is a medication given to people to aid blood flow, this obviously also increases athletic performance, so we had dozens of Russian atheletes who convieniently all developed conditions which needed treatment for Melodonium

    I am not saying Messi's case is similar to this as he took it when he was growing up, I am just trying to explain there is a thin line between therapeutic use and performance enhancement, and unfortunately with some drugs you can't really have one without the other. But the issue is, how did whoever medic who treated Messi know at which point the HGH took him past what would have been 'normal' for his genetics, there is no way they could have known what his natural height should be, for all we know with normal growth hormone Messi may have been more like 5'6-5'6 (around his dad's height), and got an extra 2 inches artificially.

    His strength on the ball and ability to twist and change direction at such speeds are pretty much unique to him, in the way we haven't really seen another footballer who can change direction at such speed, Messi is incredible to watch and he makes it look so natural. Ronaldo is incredible, and being a man united fan I obviously have a bit of loyalty to him, but Ronaldo looks like he tries so hard, Messi just looks like he was born to do it.

    I don't think anyone can really say for certain whether or not HGH benefited Messi past the point at which it became an unfair advantage, no one can claim Messi is a cheat, but no one can say his abilities are 100% natural either. If Messi was born in the 1950s and hit age 20 in the 1970s, HGH would not have been readily available so he probably would not have been a professional footballer due to his height, Ronaldo would still have been a great.

    So im my opinion, is Messi an intentional cheat? Absolutely not, but he has had an artificial aid that other people are not allowed.
    just shut up. messi is not a cheat and he did not take any drugs to help him be the best player in the world. your just a deluded ronaldo and rm fan who has just realized messi is better than ronaldo and now you can't handle that fact messi is better so you have to try to convice people to believe your stupid bs lies.

  13. #7018
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    My opinion is that the Hgh brought him disadvantages. Probably without treatment, he was even better.
    Nobody can say how would play without treatment, less centimeters, but faster, and even more creazy ability to twist
    and change direction.
    “I would love to have played at this club. I am envious of how well Guardiola's men can play. They are like a group of kids who play football in the street without rules. That is the best football, the most authentic, unfettered by tactics or schemes. Guardiola’s philosophy is helping to change the mindset of many tacticians and that is priceless.” Marco Van Basten

  14. #7019
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagIX View Post
    My opinion is that the Hgh brought him disadvantages. Probably without treatment, he was even better.
    Nobody can say how would play without treatment, less centimeters, but faster, and even more creazy ability to twist
    and change direction.
    Check out that Yeferson Soteldo dude. Looks like a mini Messi at full speed. Lol.

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    Its a simple debate to settle. Messis GROWTH-hormones gave him an unfair advantage to the extent that he is taller than other footballers ;-)