UEFA_Barça_Chris
o Fenômeno
Perhaps he meant suarez overall time here as a Barça player. Suarez on his good day has deadly deceptive runs
10 - Lionel Messi - v5
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
They don't work any harder than us. If they did they would have been closer in the league. You can't be lucky all year round but you can get through a few cup ties being lucky. They were terrible against bayern especially at home. Hard work did not get them through that. A good keeper and terrible bayern finishing did that. They are a cup team recently just like arsenal in the fa cup and Liverpool who are not the best in europe
Suarez on his day is top class. He can even get 3 assists.
And it could be a blunder, in other name, occasional. But at that time it was critical.
If one would say, we failed against atletico, look at overall record. How do we fare against them in the last... Let's say 4 years? Not just in CL. It is the same team, the team in league and CL. Too bad the defeats were so critical. CL knock outs.
Edit: just checked.
http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/fc-barcelona/atletico-madrid/11/
The last time Barca defeat by Atm dates back to... 8 years ago. In the league. We are FAR superior than them. But sadly, our record in the two years that we faced them was not good. 2-1-1 for Atm. So, like just I said.
Don't forget, we also managed to get to get revenge against two rivals, Bayern and Atletico. So, my conclusion, Roma was a blunder, no need to make it general. So does yesterday against Levante. We know the real cause behind that. In what normal day would Vermaelen-Mina could be better than Pique-Mina ?
Or lack of strategy? Lack of player managing? Superb opponent strategy, or fantastic opponent's preparation, compared to us.
And it could be a blunder, in other name, occasional. But at that time it was critical.
If one would say, we failed against atletico, look at overall record. How do we fare against them in the last... Let's say 4 years? Not just in CL. It is the same team, the team in league and CL. Too bad the defeats were so critical. CL knock outs.
Edit: just checked.
http://www.worldfootball.net/teams/fc-barcelona/atletico-madrid/11/
The last time Barca defeat by Atm dates back to... 8 years ago. In the league. We are FAR superior than them. But sadly, our record in the two years that we faced them was not good. 2-1-1 for Atm. So, like just I said.
Don't forget, we also managed to get to get revenge against two rivals, Bayern and Atletico. So, my conclusion, Roma was a blunder, no need to make it general. So does yesterday against Levante. We know the real cause behind that. In what normal day would Vermaelen-Mina could be better than Pique-Mina ?
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El Gato
Villarato!
[MENTION=13515]sickstar[/MENTION]
You're making a lot of wishy washy points like "management". Strategy i.e. tactics goes out of the window at a certain skill gap provided the team puts the work in (see Real vs Alcorcon and compare with Barca vs Hercules from Copa a couple years back). One always makes an assumption they're being "managed" in the CL. Sometimes an actor is being given a complete script, sometimes just bullet points to improvise from. But no manager will let the team go out there in a quarterfinal without instructions and then it's only up to the players to work for it and push each other. This Barca was directed pretty well with regards to fitness, less so with keeping the stars level of effort in check.
Blunders, as you put them, are not some random occurrence. They usually have a root cause. Milan didn't choke in 2005, because of tactics or lack of preparation. They thought the game was done at HT. If Roma was a blunder there'd be no repeating theme of lack of leadership throughout the season, Levante was just a consequence of extreme relaxation following the Clasico result. Players thought they got this in the bag. Professionals don't think like that and it's not just up to Valverde to get rid of that mentality. Many managers can assertively say "did you lot think this was over?", but some groups of players won't react unless it comes from their ambitious peer. Goes back to Xavi and Puyol again who understand what it takes to lead a group. You can have a volatile AF manager like Mourinho, but if your pack leader isn't up to scratch then the message won't get through.
Again, at that level, it's either inexperience of certain tie circumstances i.e. any PSG tie, Monaco vs Juve, any Pep team post-2011.. or it's lack of focus and effort i.e. anytime a big team bottles a big lead over far lesser skilled opponents.
You're making a lot of wishy washy points like "management". Strategy i.e. tactics goes out of the window at a certain skill gap provided the team puts the work in (see Real vs Alcorcon and compare with Barca vs Hercules from Copa a couple years back). One always makes an assumption they're being "managed" in the CL. Sometimes an actor is being given a complete script, sometimes just bullet points to improvise from. But no manager will let the team go out there in a quarterfinal without instructions and then it's only up to the players to work for it and push each other. This Barca was directed pretty well with regards to fitness, less so with keeping the stars level of effort in check.
Blunders, as you put them, are not some random occurrence. They usually have a root cause. Milan didn't choke in 2005, because of tactics or lack of preparation. They thought the game was done at HT. If Roma was a blunder there'd be no repeating theme of lack of leadership throughout the season, Levante was just a consequence of extreme relaxation following the Clasico result. Players thought they got this in the bag. Professionals don't think like that and it's not just up to Valverde to get rid of that mentality. Many managers can assertively say "did you lot think this was over?", but some groups of players won't react unless it comes from their ambitious peer. Goes back to Xavi and Puyol again who understand what it takes to lead a group. You can have a volatile AF manager like Mourinho, but if your pack leader isn't up to scratch then the message won't get through.
Again, at that level, it's either inexperience of certain tie circumstances i.e. any PSG tie, Monaco vs Juve, any Pep team post-2011.. or it's lack of focus and effort i.e. anytime a big team bottles a big lead over far lesser skilled opponents.
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Haha I like what Messi said about Real. They know how to win playing bad. It's so true, though. We rarely win anything playing badly.
Is it really that bad, losing just once in every tournament? For every other teams it would be a dream, bar the big shots, ofc. Still, it's difficult to achieve.
And for me, the only lost which has a big impact was just the Rome match. Espanyol one doesn't really matter, as we still get through. Also, Levante, ... We won the league, record is record, but no more than that. It'll bring pleasure but it's hardly a big pressure at all at this stage of play.
No need to picked examples as there are also examples in which we came from behind I.e the Sevilla game. For me it's as clear as day seeing this fact:
7/4: Roma vs fiorentina 0-2
8/4: Barcelona vs Leganes 3-1 (hattrick by LM)
11/4: Roma vs Barcelona 3-0
You say it's a lack of effort? Lack of effort made a team near invicible? So if at full effort perhaps it's a treble without defeat? If that's what you call full effort, perhaps no team have ever made full effort in this planet. Well, maybe bar across Milan or Ajax at a certain season.
I'm telling that because of getting tired looking at the same Roma comment again and again, while none of the folks ever mentioned the good positive points.
We've been too used at Barca being this good for awhile. There's some far more disappointing seasons when RM still had zidane,Raul,hierro,r.carlos etc.
DonAndres
Wild Man of Borneo
Y'all need to stop pretending teams put the same effort in La Liga as they do in CL.
Not only is it visibly clear most teams play harder in the CL (and RM more than ANYONE has this disparity in effort), literally any research you do on distance travelled stats shows that players on average run roughly 1.5-2km/game more in the CL than they do in league play (and that data is for EPL where it's more intense than La Liga). Not only that but the players at top clubs that also play in CL show that their own distance travelled rises by a similar amount in CL relative to league play. And lastly, at the top of "distance travelled" lists for league data you'll mostly see players from smaller clubs running quite a lot and dominate the higher positions on these lists whereas for CL data you see most of the big club players at the higher end. Which, again strongly indicates that players from big clubs try a lot harder in the CL than league.
Barca lack the effort requisite for the CL. That's why we're so dominant in La Liga but then somehow manage to be so underwhelming in CL so consistently. So that "lack of effort made a team near invincible?" comment is just plain bs and irrelevant. Along with that you said "Roma was just a fluke/blunder" which COULD NOT be more wrong.
We've systemically collapsed in the spring 5 out of the last 6 seasons. We've had a pattern of blowout losses and poor games in the CL for several years now (4-0 PSG, 3-0 Juventus, 3-0 Roma, 2-0 Atletico). You could even extend that back to the 2-0 at Milan and 3-0 at Bayern, our problems have extended back ever since Pep left. And even aside from that, our 1-1 draw at Chelsea was a thoroughly rubbish showing where we would've lost by 2-3 goals if Willian finished those shots instead of hitting the woodwork. All of this suggests it's ANYTHING BUT a fluke/blunder. Busquets himself has acknowledged this.
If this were the NBA, Barca would be seen as the equivalent of the Raptors choking in an embarrassing fashion year after year in the playoffs (where it actually matters). But since no one notices it that way in football people haven't put two and two together about how we're consistently great in the league and then shit in CL to conclude that something has been going wrong. As well as still making false equivalencies about how La Liga is equal to CL.
Not only is it visibly clear most teams play harder in the CL (and RM more than ANYONE has this disparity in effort), literally any research you do on distance travelled stats shows that players on average run roughly 1.5-2km/game more in the CL than they do in league play (and that data is for EPL where it's more intense than La Liga). Not only that but the players at top clubs that also play in CL show that their own distance travelled rises by a similar amount in CL relative to league play. And lastly, at the top of "distance travelled" lists for league data you'll mostly see players from smaller clubs running quite a lot and dominate the higher positions on these lists whereas for CL data you see most of the big club players at the higher end. Which, again strongly indicates that players from big clubs try a lot harder in the CL than league.
Barca lack the effort requisite for the CL. That's why we're so dominant in La Liga but then somehow manage to be so underwhelming in CL so consistently. So that "lack of effort made a team near invincible?" comment is just plain bs and irrelevant. Along with that you said "Roma was just a fluke/blunder" which COULD NOT be more wrong.
We've systemically collapsed in the spring 5 out of the last 6 seasons. We've had a pattern of blowout losses and poor games in the CL for several years now (4-0 PSG, 3-0 Juventus, 3-0 Roma, 2-0 Atletico). You could even extend that back to the 2-0 at Milan and 3-0 at Bayern, our problems have extended back ever since Pep left. And even aside from that, our 1-1 draw at Chelsea was a thoroughly rubbish showing where we would've lost by 2-3 goals if Willian finished those shots instead of hitting the woodwork. All of this suggests it's ANYTHING BUT a fluke/blunder. Busquets himself has acknowledged this.
If this were the NBA, Barca would be seen as the equivalent of the Raptors choking in an embarrassing fashion year after year in the playoffs (where it actually matters). But since no one notices it that way in football people haven't put two and two together about how we're consistently great in the league and then shit in CL to conclude that something has been going wrong. As well as still making false equivalencies about how La Liga is equal to CL.
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LosBlancos
New member
Swap Barca's domestic cup success with CL and there would probably be fewer questions about Valverde and less validation needed from the players.
Also, this notion that Real Madrid only care about CL and that there is complete focus isn't really true. 2014 (won CL), Real were 3 points off the champions, 2015 (CL SF) 2 points off champions, 2016 (won CL) 1 point off champions, and 2017 (won CL) Real Madrid did win the league.
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It's up to personal opinion. Like I said, sometimes there are people who only look at the losses/ negative facts. How about the 2014-15 cl win? If we lack effort at winning it, what happened when we're full effort? That's why I said, don't generalized. If we're so bad that there's no title, domestic and international for, let's say, 2 or 3 years, you can shit the boards and players and coaches all you want.
Do you want to say that it's better to lose at semis or finals ? At the end of the day, there's still no title. Not much of a difference.
The losses were indeed painful, but a 1-2 loss at the end is the same with 4-0 loss. (Don't forget we came back sentationally after PSG. Lack of effort?).
The point is, we failed to win it. People, in general will see it like that.
If not, then why would anyone pissed of Messi not getting his country a medal in those three years for argentina despite the fact that they didn't lose a single game in a 90 minute of play and played the maximum number of matches possible?
Back to Barca, indeed that a better management, after learning from years and years, should be the priority. We learned that the collapse is usually around first and second knock out stages of CL, so learn from it. Learn from Rome, Madrid. But people shouldn't be complaining when we win CL despite losing in league and cup. I once said, it could be some kind of pressure or ambition from a new coach like EV, having a chance to grab the treble, something that is rare, to a greater extent, doing it in his first year as a coach. And somehow failed. He should learn a thing or two next year. Also we would have some more interesting option, despite losing Iniesta.
Do you want to say that it's better to lose at semis or finals ? At the end of the day, there's still no title. Not much of a difference.
The losses were indeed painful, but a 1-2 loss at the end is the same with 4-0 loss. (Don't forget we came back sentationally after PSG. Lack of effort?).
The point is, we failed to win it. People, in general will see it like that.
If not, then why would anyone pissed of Messi not getting his country a medal in those three years for argentina despite the fact that they didn't lose a single game in a 90 minute of play and played the maximum number of matches possible?
Back to Barca, indeed that a better management, after learning from years and years, should be the priority. We learned that the collapse is usually around first and second knock out stages of CL, so learn from it. Learn from Rome, Madrid. But people shouldn't be complaining when we win CL despite losing in league and cup. I once said, it could be some kind of pressure or ambition from a new coach like EV, having a chance to grab the treble, something that is rare, to a greater extent, doing it in his first year as a coach. And somehow failed. He should learn a thing or two next year. Also we would have some more interesting option, despite losing Iniesta.
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I watched this video on YouTube called "Messi - A coward" and it's so sad the pressure he is on with Argentina. They will all still blame him when Argentina fails in the World Cup, so sad.
I remember watching Messi hit that hattrick against Ecuador to send Argentina to finals and remember celebrating so much, now I think if it was worth it. World Cup is here now and Argentina about to fail and Messi about to get lot of criticise.
I remember watching Messi hit that hattrick against Ecuador to send Argentina to finals and remember celebrating so much, now I think if it was worth it. World Cup is here now and Argentina about to fail and Messi about to get lot of criticise.
M
MessiCam
Guest
Yes it was worth it, because if wasn’t in the World Cup he wouldn’t have a chance of winning it. Right now there is a chance, even if it is a remote chance.
But watch him set this World Cup alight. Argentina may not win it but Messi will walk out with his head held high.
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...bservatory-Messi-Ronaldo-Salah-sportgalleries
According to this, 4 out of 5 top European players are: otamendi, aguero, dybala and Messi. Argentina still has top performing players. Balance and harmony still has plenty to work for.
According to this, 4 out of 5 top European players are: otamendi, aguero, dybala and Messi. Argentina still has top performing players. Balance and harmony still has plenty to work for.
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