10 - Lionel Messi - v5

Gordo101 said:

Sigh... I never said he shouldn't have taken it, I asked for people's opinion on it, and got a massively defensive reaction.

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Gordo101 said:

Without something which is essentially a performance enhancing drug, Messi would not be as good as he is today. There is a good argument it isn't fair he plays professional sport, as some of his talents are not from god or genetics but from a chemical given to him to help him grow. Messi should be about 5'2......

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Gordo101 said:

There is no evidence, it's definitely up for debate, thus I asked for your opinion. We won't ever know exactly how much if at all it benefited him, but suggested a drug used by some of the best atheletes in american history had no beneficial effect on Messi whatsoever outside of making him average height is ignoring the facts a little on what HGH exactly does.

Bigger Ligaments, bigger tendons, bigger heart, bigger muscles, denser bones etc. HGH does all of this, it's a stretch to say it didn't benefit him at all, people will always talk about this with Messi, the only way to really silence the critics would be to release his medical records from his teenage years onwards.

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Gordo101 said:

https://draxe.com/human-growth-hormone/

I watch loads of boxing, football is probably my second sport in all fairness. Combat sports are full of PEDs and I took a massive interest in them a few years back, drugs are absolutely everywhere in sports. Oscar de la hoya, Shane Mosley & Evander Holyfield, who are two of the last 20 years top 5 welterweights, and a top 5 heavyweight of the last 20 years, have all been involved in HGH scandals, along with A-Rod, arguably the best baseball player of the last 20 years. HGH works.

Messi definitely needed it to grow to a normal height, the question is how much it benefited him past this, if at all. People saying you can't be given technique, absolutely correct, but technique gets worse as you get fatigued, and technique can be improved by muscle strength. The ability, for example, to run just 2 steps further in a sprint before you get fatigued is HUGE.

As an example, boxers don't take PED's to punch harder, that's down to technique, they take PED's so they can maintain their technique for longer periods of time without becoming fatigued. The same thing would apply to most sports, HGH would never have made Messi more technical, but it may have given him other benefits that indirectly effected his overall game.

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MessiCam said:

It is my opinion that it's important not to blur the lines between therapeutic use and performance enhancement.

Messi's condition is such that he had a shortage of this powerful natural hormone which if not treated could have led to a plethora of other issues. If left untreated he would have had a below average heart, lungs, bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles as you've so aptly put. That his treatment, to bring his HGH levels in line with the average human being and those he competed with and which was discontinued once he reached adulthood, has become a debate is quite scandalous in my opinion.

I will now ask for your opinion... Does Messi appear to be a freak of nature for anything other than his footballing ability? Consider his physical stature, his injury history and that he has long since stopped using this hormone before you answer.

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Gordo101 said:

it's definitely hard to determine at which point the use of HGH is simply to fix a medical issue, and when it goes past that to give an advantage. Without a clone of Messi to compare we will never really know, if that makes sense. I mentioned Bradley Wiggins as it turns out he had a long term TUE for an asthma medication, which is a steroid which aids breathing. The issue with Wiggins is, that drug would benefit someone who didn't have asthma, and he was taking it preemptive to any conditions surfacing, it's a really tricky thing to deal with and Russia have made complaints regarding TUE's being handed out favorably to certain athletes/countries.

Dozens of Russian athletes have been caught using a drug called Melodonium, Sharpiniova the tennis player got a 1-2 year ban for having it in her system, the same as Povetkin, a heavyweight boxer. Melodonium is a medication given to people to aid blood flow, this obviously also increases athletic performance, so we had dozens of Russian atheletes who convieniently all developed conditions which needed treatment for Melodonium

I am not saying Messi's case is similar to this as he took it when he was growing up, I am just trying to explain there is a thin line between therapeutic use and performance enhancement, and unfortunately with some drugs you can't really have one without the other. But the issue is, how did whoever medic who treated Messi know at which point the HGH took him past what would have been 'normal' for his genetics, there is no way they could have known what his natural height should be, for all we know with normal growth hormone Messi may have been more like 5'6-5'6 (around his dad's height), and got an extra 2 inches artificially.

His strength on the ball and ability to twist and change direction at such speeds are pretty much unique to him, in the way we haven't really seen another footballer who can change direction at such speed, Messi is incredible to watch and he makes it look so natural. Ronaldo is incredible, and being a man united fan I obviously have a bit of loyalty to him, but Ronaldo looks like he tries so hard, Messi just looks like he was born to do it.

I don't think anyone can really say for certain whether or not HGH benefited Messi past the point at which it became an unfair advantage, no one can claim Messi is a cheat, but no one can say his abilities are 100% natural either. If Messi was born in the 1950s and hit age 20 in the 1970s, HGH would not have been readily available so he probably would not have been a professional footballer due to his height, Ronaldo would still have been a great.

So im my opinion, is Messi an intentional cheat? Absolutely not, but he has had an artificial aid that other people are not allowed.

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Gordo101 said:

https://draxe.com/human-growth-hormone/

I watch loads of boxing, football is probably my second sport in all fairness. Combat sports are full of PEDs and I took a massive interest in them a few years back, drugs are absolutely everywhere in sports. Oscar de la hoya, Shane Mosley & Evander Holyfield, who are two of the last 20 years top 5 welterweights, and a top 5 heavyweight of the last 20 years, have all been involved in HGH scandals, along with A-Rod, arguably the best baseball player of the last 20 years. HGH works.

Messi definitely needed it to grow to a normal height, the question is how much it benefited him past this, if at all. People saying you can't be given technique, absolutely correct, but technique gets worse as you get fatigued, and technique can be improved by muscle strength. The ability, for example, to run just 2 steps further in a sprint before you get fatigued is HUGE.

As an example, boxers don't take PED's to punch harder, that's down to technique, they take PED's so they can maintain their technique for longer periods of time without becoming fatigued. The same thing would apply to most sports, HGH would never have made Messi more technical, but it may have given him other benefits that indirectly effected his overall game.

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Gordo101 said:

it's definitely hard to determine at which point the use of HGH is simply to fix a medical issue, and when it goes past that to give an advantage. Without a clone of Messi to compare we will never really know, if that makes sense. I mentioned Bradley Wiggins as it turns out he had a long term TUE for an asthma medication, which is a steroid which aids breathing. The issue with Wiggins is, that drug would benefit someone who didn't have asthma, and he was taking it preemptive to any conditions surfacing, it's a really tricky thing to deal with and Russia have made complaints regarding TUE's being handed out favorably to certain athletes/countries.

Dozens of Russian athletes have been caught using a drug called Melodonium, Sharpiniova the tennis player got a 1-2 year ban for having it in her system, the same as Povetkin, a heavyweight boxer. Melodonium is a medication given to people to aid blood flow, this obviously also increases athletic performance, so we had dozens of Russian atheletes who convieniently all developed conditions which needed treatment for Melodonium

I am not saying Messi's case is similar to this as he took it when he was growing up, I am just trying to explain there is a thin line between therapeutic use and performance enhancement, and unfortunately with some drugs you can't really have one without the other. But the issue is, how did whoever medic who treated Messi know at which point the HGH took him past what would have been 'normal' for his genetics, there is no way they could have known what his natural height should be, for all we know with normal growth hormone Messi may have been more like 5'6-5'6 (around his dad's height), and got an extra 2 inches artificially.

His strength on the ball and ability to twist and change direction at such speeds are pretty much unique to him, in the way we haven't really seen another footballer who can change direction at such speed, Messi is incredible to watch and he makes it look so natural. Ronaldo is incredible, and being a man united fan I obviously have a bit of loyalty to him, but Ronaldo looks like he tries so hard, Messi just looks like he was born to do it.

I don't think anyone can really say for certain whether or not HGH benefited Messi past the point at which it became an unfair advantage, no one can claim Messi is a cheat, but no one can say his abilities are 100% natural either. If Messi was born in the 1950s and hit age 20 in the 1970s, HGH would not have been readily available so he probably would not have been a professional footballer due to his height, Ronaldo would still have been a great.

So im my opinion, is Messi an intentional cheat? Absolutely not, but he has had an artificial aid that other people are not allowed.

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MagIX said:

My opinion is that the Hgh brought him disadvantages. Probably without treatment, he was even better.
Nobody can say how would play without treatment, less centimeters, but faster, and even more creazy ability to twist
and change direction.

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Messi said:

Its a simple debate to settle. Messis GROWTH-hormones gave him an unfair advantage to the extent that he is taller than other footballers ;-)

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Gordo101 said:

I think a good way to settle it is to look at how tall his brothers/father are. If Messi is taller than them I would say HGH took him past where he should really be in terms of strength and size, if he is the same height I would say it's pretty fair to say he wasn't over-administered HGH.

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Gordo101 said:

I think a good way to settle it is to look at how tall his brothers/father are. If Messi is taller than them I would say HGH took him past where he should really be in terms of strength and size, if he is the same height I would say it's pretty fair to say he wasn't over-administered HGH.

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behindbrowneyes said:

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