10 - Lionel Messi - v5

JamDav1982

Senior Member
What do you call the marking then where a player is tracked by an opposite player in a 5 meter radius?
Anyway, Messi has to deal with 3 of those many games.

Messi is taking the ball in areas where the other team are defending narrow and compact. That is why there are so many players around him.

It is more about where he takes the ball than other team trying to have three men on him. No one does that.
 

Horatio

You're welcome
Messi is taking the ball in areas where the other team are defending narrow and compact. That is why there are so many players around him.

It is more about where he takes the ball than other team trying to have three men on him. No one does that.

I get what you are saying, but there must be a reason why analysts feel the need to point it out everytime in Messi's case.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
I get what you are saying, but there must be a reason why analysts feel the need to point it out in Messi's case everytime.

Point out what?

The areas he plays and lack of movement off the ball a lot of the time it is inevitable he will be surrounded by a few players when he gets the ball.
 

Ritchie

New member
Ronaldo isnt just a 'goal hanger' that waits for service at all.

If claim that then dont have a clue how he plays.

Both of them are completely different players that get results for their team in many ways the other cant.

It simplifies his job but that's predominantly what his role now is, a more traditional striker. Okay his movement and runs are key but relying on service and waiting for defenders to make a mistake is basically his role now in the Real team.

If Messi copied that for Argentina then the chances are at least one the last two games wouldn't have been stalemates against Venezuela and Peru because even if he only got one or two chances you'd back him to put one of them away. It'd force other players to step up to supply him rather than just let Messi do everything. He'd be more likely to force at least a penalty rather than half a dozen free kicks 40 yards from goal.

The deeper Messi goes then the more crowded out he gets. Ronaldo always finds space even in the box and Messi can make those runs just as well.
 
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Horatio

You're welcome
Which wont prove anything other than he is taking ball in areas where they defend narrow and deep usually.

But those 3 players from time to time can be out of position because of ball rotation or deciding to close in on another opponent who is on the ball. Could one say defenders defend Messi's zone more strictly because he is the most dangerous player?
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
It simplifies his job but that's predominantly what his role now is, a more traditional striker. Okay his movement and runs are key but relying on service and waiting for defenders to make a mistake is basically his role now in the Real team.

If Messi copied that for Argentina then the chances are at least one the last two games wouldn't have been stalemates against Venezuela and Peru because even if he only got one or two chances you'd back him to put one of them away. It'd force other players to step up to supply him rather than just let Messi do everything.

It isnt and he doesnt goal hang it is all about clever movement and he kills teams if they sit deep or if they play a high line.

Even then the last Real game he was their most creative player. Still has elements of that to his game.

Messi couldnt play that role as wouldnt same threat as Ronaldo from balls into the box or the threat powering in behind defences if they leave space.

Just as Ronaldo cant do the things Messi does.

Messi had chances vs Peru anyway and didnt score.

He would be far less impacting on the game if tried to play like Ronaldo. He played like Messi v Peru and played well.
 

JamDav1982

Senior Member
But those 3 players from time to time can be out of position because of ball rotation or deciding to close in on another opponent who is on the ball. Could one say defenders defend Messi's zone more strictly because he is the most dangerous player?

Teams will set up to close the space they know Messi wants to play in just as teams will set up to try and limit any teams top plyer tries to play in.

Messi gets away with getting ball in tight areas as he is so good on ball but he doesn particularly make it difficult for defenders to get near him.

If Messi was willing to play wider and move off the ball more those situations would happen less.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
One of his biggest problems (whether his or theirs) is how attackers who play alongside him tend to struggle. Higuain is absolutely useless in Argentina shirt as is Aguero. These have been the best strikers in Serie A and EPL for the last few years. Dybala is left out the team for some crap player in Argentinian league because he apparently can't play with Messi. Tevez was left out the World Cup squad in 2014 because he didn't gel with Messi and then they end up playing Palacio in a World Cup final and not scoring in the semi final or final. Di Maria is like a pub player for Argentina. Argentina's results without Messi shows the problems run a lot deeper.

Even at Barca the likes of Ibra and Villa have been inhibited. Eto'o was cast aside (08/09 that's maybe the best non-Messi season from a Barca forward in the last 10 years). Suarez has gone to shit the last year or so. Neymar never really kicked on after 2015 and most of last season it was Messi carrying MSN,

Is it a case of Messi misses his Benzema (another forward who can link up with him and make him better.) or is he just too difficult to link up? For whatever reason he seems to inhibit the other forwards.

It'd be interesting if he went to City to see if he did link up well with the likes of Jesus, Aguero and Sane, or would they struggle like Aguero does for Argentina?

Where do I start?

Aguero is injured and Higuain is horribly off form and is carrying too much weight at present (Tevez had that same problem in stages during his career).

Dybala, a fantastic player who is only going to get better but the problem here is a unique one. Messi and Dybala have similar games, they like to drop deep and influence the game as much as possible, as well as strike with the same foot. As such they will both look to occupy the same space instinctively. Have a look back at the Venezuela game, both Dybala and Messi were cast as secondary strikers in a 4-3-2-1 system behind Icardi with Dybala set to operate on the left flank and Messi the right. What transpired was both of them operating predominantly on the right edge of the box and confusion reigned.

Tevez was left out of the 2014 World Cup squad not because he couldn't gel with Messi but because he had issues with Sabella. Personally, I think he should have been included in the squad if only for his work rate but with Argentina enjoying their best run in the qualifiers for some years it was somewhat understandable that the coach didn't want to rock the boat.

As for Barca, none of those were inhibited in any way. Their goals per game stats were quite similar to what came before and after apart from Ibra at PSG. I don't really rate Ligue 1 to be honest but it's true that Ibra scored at a ridiculous rate there. I would also rate Suarez 2015/2016 season as the best non-Messi season in recent years but I would also stress that that season was an outlier for Suarez. He immediately went back to putting up his usual per season numbers of 30-35 goals.

Also, in terms of traditonal 9's all this talk of link up is grossly exaggerated because his job is not to link play but to score and hold up play when his back is toward goal. Right now and in the years prior to MSN Barca didn't play a traditional 9. Playing the False 9 gives them more midfield control and gets their best player in the centre of the park where he can do more damage and as such it requires an almost instinctual knowledge of where your teammates are going to be and when. Expecting that to happen with Argentina is a work in progress. Should they qualify I'd expect that to happen at the pre-world cup camp.
 

Neymessi

Active member
If we are discussing some valid criticism on messi then he hasn't played to well in the bigger internation games much. Team played shit too but he wasn't too great individually. 2015 and 2016 final messi was invisible against chile and was walking in WC semis and finals. He has been quite average in big games.

Ronaldo isnt just a 'goal hanger' that waits for service at all.

If claim that then dont have a clue how he plays.

Both of them are completely different players that get results for their team in many ways the other cant.

He is a goal hanger who does waits for service and does nothing else, in a nutshell. That is exactly how he plays week in week out. He plays like that in RM and he plays like that in portugal. No need denying that.
 

ThwiX

Best midfielder around
Rumours that he will end his career for the national team for good this time if they don't qualify. Would be such an utterly sad ending. Don't even want to think about it.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
If we are discussing some valid criticism on messi then he hasn't played to well in the bigger internation games much. Team played shit too but he wasn't too great individually. 2015 and 2016 final messi was invisible against chile and was walking in WC semis and finals. He has been quite average in big games.



He is a goal hanger who does waits for service and does nothing else, in a nutshell. That is exactly how he plays week in week out. He plays like that in RM and he plays like that in portugal. No need denying that.

both messi and CR7 are multiple times the players that neymar will be, but nice angling :valverde2:

for the record, i'm not too happy with messi's performances in those later international stage games either, but to suggest he was walking or invisible or disinterested is categorically insane.
 

Hardy

Senior Member
well, i don't think people in argentina would like to see him and the other players even in a picture if they fail, just look on social media, air is already toxic as fuck, if there is a country that can't accept this failure in football like in other sport is Argentina.
 

henias

New member
It isnt and he doesnt goal hang it is all about clever movement and he kills teams if they sit deep or if they play a high line.

Even then the last Real game he was their most creative player. Still has elements of that to his game.

Messi couldnt play that role as wouldnt same threat as Ronaldo from balls into the box or the threat powering in behind defences if they leave space.

Just as Ronaldo cant do the things Messi does.

Messi had chances vs Peru anyway and didnt score.

He would be far less impacting on the game if tried to play like Ronaldo. He played like Messi v Peru and played well.

Thing is even if teams sit deep, Ronaldo has a far superior height advantage that Messi doesnt have. Players can cross in and defenders will panic, causing a helter-skelter. Defence will stretch as they want to prevent them from crossing. In Argentina, the aerial threat is almost non-existent. Teams can afford to sit back and play compact, and not worry about crosses. Benedetto is seriously nothing but a piece of wood. Same goes with Icardi.

Unless they can play like Barcelona, which they dont, I dont see how any defensive teams will struggle against them. They cant even make a single pull back to Messi, or simply square it to a player in better position. They simply shoot at a very tight angle which keeper has no problem saving.

Sure Messi had chances, but simply put, Peru defence didnt had to do much to stifle much of their not so dangerous chances. Messi's attempt was ultimately intervened right on time with at least 3 players lunging in for the ball. Does this mean Messi is to blame? No. Argentina's attacking options were simply too limited.

Messi is ultimately a false nine, his lack of prominent movement off the ball is to make him difficult to track by defenders, at the same time conserve those energy for the burst of speeds. He still drops deep to collect the ball very often, for me that's his physical capacity and as much as he could do to bring out his best in each match. Ronaldo is more of a simple traditional 9/center forward role. Of course he doesnt just sit in the box. No player sits in the box for 90 mins. It just means both are entirely different playstyle, I dont get why one is SO highly praised and the other shat on, just because things are simply working well in one at the moment and not the other.

Does that mean Ronaldo has a far better game than Messi? Not necessarily. Ronaldo has players that are complementary to his style of play while Messi's are ineffective and somewhat contradictory. Ronaldo's is more simplified, and definitely easier to adapt, adheres to a fluid counter attacking style. If circumstances were made right for Messi, could Ronaldo's and Portugal be much superior than Argentina and Messi. Very hard to say. Portugal might be completely dominated left right and center, and Ronaldo cant do much. Against strong teams like Spain and Germany, Portugal might not be able to handle. In short, Ronaldo's style is a much safer and simplified approach, but generally will falter especially against strong technical teams if they dont capitalise their chances. Messi's style is far more complex, but if teammates can complement each other, it will be far more devastating. Messi can be a complete beast like he is in Barca and is likely to be far more superior than Ronaldo in many aspects.

Central players with similar playstyle like Aguero suffers as well, always a shadow of himself in Argentina. Does that mean he is an average player? No. Things simply didnt click together in Argentina.
 

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