Pedro
La Masia
No, but he won't get many chances in the starting eleven, he'll probably get loaned out somewhere
Luis Suárez
- Thread starter jj_101
- Start date
No, but he won't get many chances in the starting eleven, he'll probably get loaned out somewhere
Barcelona_Boy
Member
I hope not... I mean, I hope that he will get some chances and that he doesn't get loaned... As far as now, the little one has showed some remarkable skills, and doesn't deserve to be pushed out because of oldies.
BarçaBarça
New member
Mundo reporting that the board is looking for a replacement is a great thing.
That means, he is gone next summer or will be benched by a newcomer next season.
Lautaro is mentioned and that would be a great buy - not too expensive given we will get money for Suarez - and I don't think we will get Mbappe.
That means, he is gone next summer or will be benched by a newcomer next season.
Lautaro is mentioned and that would be a great buy - not too expensive given we will get money for Suarez - and I don't think we will get Mbappe.
Lautaro would cost 100+ and we probably won't get a single cent for Suárez lol
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Imo, a problem with perfect players for Barca is that we hit a gold with a 100% perfect player for a certain position once in let's say 5 years.
1 out of 3 transfers are ok, but not perfect (Semedo, Rakitic, Lenglet for example).
While 2 out of 3 transfers are pure flops.
And then, when we need to replace a player who is not at his best anymore (like Suarez) in this case, we are entering into a dangerous loop of hit and miss transfers:
33% of players signed will be as good as a current him
66% of players will be way worse even than a current him.
And once in 4-5 years/attempts, we will finally hit a gold even with a transfer or a young talent.
A similar loop happened with CMs:
We had Fabregas who was let's say 80% a good fit.
Then we wanted someone who is at 80-90% range.
We bought Rakitic, who was also at 80% range.
He was ok, but of course that we wanted someone who will be better.
Then we bought Arda.
He was way worse than Rakitic.
The we tried with Denis and Gomes.
Both were horrible.
We tried with Samper. Horrible.
We bought Paulinho.
Still worse.
After 5 years of trying, we scored with Frenkie and Arthur.
We will have them now for years, but now we will go through the same process on other positions:
Then, we had the same loop with wingers.
Neymar was good, but he left.
We tried with Dembele, but he sucked.
We bought Coutinho as a 2nd attempt. He sucked even more.
We bought Malcom as a 3rd attempt to be either better fit than Dembele or to create a competition. He mostly disappointed also.
Then we tried with a 4th guy: Griezmann. For now, he seems to be a similar fail/misfit to Dembele/Coutinho.
Maybe the 5th attempt or Fati will be better.
Regarding Lautaro (or several others players whom we will be buy after him), I am expecting a similar scenario.
It is extremely hard and rare to find players who are a 90-100% good fit (this is just arbitrary, but you get the point).
What is worse, on larger samples it shows that it is even extremely hard to replace a guy like Suarez.
No matter how declined he is currently, the other options are even way worse.
I wouldn't even blame the board or directors here.
This is how it has always been for us in 90s and 00s.
The only exception was during Pep's era where we struck gold with several 100% players in the same time: Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi + Alves, Puyol, Pique.
Due to having too many "gold players" back then, we didn't need to buy new guys and enter into these crazy cycles/loops of hit and miss transfers.
I will sound negative: but regardless of whom we will buy after Suarez, chances are extremely low that we will be happy with a player.
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This is quite obvious. Suárez has arguably been the best number 9 the last almost 10 years. Current market doesn't have any very good available #9s. Kane, Firmino, Lewa, Agüero are WC but either impossible or too old.
People need to manage their expectations and be realistic. It's the same with Alves and Semedo where Alves was one of the best RBs of all time. Current right backs are relatively shit, even the unavailable ones. So we should be happy with Semedo who might not be crucial to our game, but still being solid.
Positions go in cycles. Just look at right backs when we had Maicon, Lahm and Alves. Today the best ones are nothing compared to these.
Potroh
New member
Regardless your sentence that I quote up there, everything you've just said leads to the main problem, the lack of a flexible system.
The board agrees to buy players, as if they were lie half-drunk, intoxicated or being high at a party.
Just as usually, you pick the unsuccessful or "flop" players and you have no mention of the actual system they come to follow at the club.
These, usually very good footballers come over with the naive hope to succeed, but when it turns out they will never ever play in their natural and accustomed positions anymore, most of the fans - just like you do it - start focus individually on the unsuccessful footballers, instead of the horrible and absolutely outdated system at Barca.
When the coach says: "Griezmann plays on the left, because he is left-footed", you don't need to know anything else. Everything is included in this single sentence.
You should.
They are the reason, who go for "big names" like Griezmann, no-names like K.P.Boateng, etc.
Griezmann and Coutinho played isolated in the non-existent system, Dembele could flourish in a fast system, unlike the present and extremely slow one, Mina could have been great in a less rigid system, where all defenders must defend in a strict line, and so on and so forth.
So, don't repeat you own mistake over and over again, by too easily naming players to be flops, without mentioning the system they are forced to play in.
Until the system changes, the team will be like this, you can buy the expensive stars or starlets, nothing will change.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Potroh, your reply sounds as if Valverde is a problem.
He might be, to some extent and for some players.
But this problem exists for 30 years.
It is not only due to coaches and a system.
The best example is the first Van Gaal's stint at Barcelona from 1997-2000.
He coached Ajax for 6 seasons before that and won a CL with Ajax in 1995.
So:
1. He knew players from Ajax
2. They played in a similar system (Ajax and Barca)
3. Van Gaal tried to copy a style from Ajax
And even in that case, his former players, who were awesome at Ajax (midfielders Litmanen and Ronald De Boer) were flops on the level of Denis/Gomes here.
In that case:
1. You can't say that a coach was bad. Van Gaal was Pep/Klopp of that era in 90s
2. You can't say that he didn't have a system
3. And you can't say that he didn't know the players or that he played them out of positions
Imo, there are several different reasons for players flopping here:
1. The opponents are stronger or different than at Ajax/Liverpool
2. Players from smaller clubs are usually fixed starters and stars of their smaller teams. Here, they are one of 15 stars in a team.
It requires a lot of adapting and changing in your play.
3. Due to not being a key player and a starter anymore, it is easy to lose mental strength and confidence
4. Fans and media expect wins in every match. The pressure is huge.
5. Fans and media expect technically awesome players. If you'll make techical mistakes, they will turn against you fast.
6. For some players (Cou, Semedo, Malcom), this is a new country, new people, new opponents, new culture. And some players are just not flexible or they need too much time to adapt.
7. For some players, like Cou, Griezz, they are really played out of position
8. Some players are just too impressed by Barca and their history and Barca is too huge step for them
9. Some players have 100 of random personal problems: Samper and Bartra scared. Dembele and Adama IQ, Dembele and Rustu language problems, Quaresma didn't want to listen to coaches, Arda lost motivation when he came here, Deco divorced from his wife around 2007, Ronaldinho started to drink after 2006'.
10. And for example which ruined their Barca's careers, horrible injuries like Patrik Anderson and Gabriel Milito.
There are so many reasons why any signing can go wrong.
And I have actually manually counted all Barca's signing from 90s till today, and stats say that around 60-70% of all signing are flops and those players are sold after a year or two.
Only 3 out of 10 signings turn into players like Rakitic, Semedo or Lenglet (let's call them 80% good fits).
While perfect signings come once in 10-15 transfers.
Regarding La Masia talents, from the most promising kids, less than 10% of kids eventually reach a level of top 1st division clubs.
This is why I don't like posts:
ANYONE would be better than Suarez in this moment.
ANYONE would be better than Pique in this moment.
Or, we would have won a title even with Alena or Puig playing instead of Rakitic.
People are often asking me: you are shitting on every new player.
Well, since that is a reality.
Out of the 10 reasons which I have mentioned above, if a player has even only 1, he will usually end as a flop.
It doesn't mean that we should stop trying.
But we should lower the expectations.
And we should appreciate more even not so perfect players like Suarez, Rakitic, Lenglet and similar, because chances are that the next guy or two (or several of them in a row like midfielders Arda, Denis, Gomes, Paulinho, Samper or wingers Dembele, Malcom, Deulofeu, Coutinho, Griezmann) will be way worse than them.
He might be, to some extent and for some players.
But this problem exists for 30 years.
It is not only due to coaches and a system.
The best example is the first Van Gaal's stint at Barcelona from 1997-2000.
He coached Ajax for 6 seasons before that and won a CL with Ajax in 1995.
So:
1. He knew players from Ajax
2. They played in a similar system (Ajax and Barca)
3. Van Gaal tried to copy a style from Ajax
And even in that case, his former players, who were awesome at Ajax (midfielders Litmanen and Ronald De Boer) were flops on the level of Denis/Gomes here.
In that case:
1. You can't say that a coach was bad. Van Gaal was Pep/Klopp of that era in 90s
2. You can't say that he didn't have a system
3. And you can't say that he didn't know the players or that he played them out of positions
Imo, there are several different reasons for players flopping here:
1. The opponents are stronger or different than at Ajax/Liverpool
2. Players from smaller clubs are usually fixed starters and stars of their smaller teams. Here, they are one of 15 stars in a team.
It requires a lot of adapting and changing in your play.
3. Due to not being a key player and a starter anymore, it is easy to lose mental strength and confidence
4. Fans and media expect wins in every match. The pressure is huge.
5. Fans and media expect technically awesome players. If you'll make techical mistakes, they will turn against you fast.
6. For some players (Cou, Semedo, Malcom), this is a new country, new people, new opponents, new culture. And some players are just not flexible or they need too much time to adapt.
7. For some players, like Cou, Griezz, they are really played out of position
8. Some players are just too impressed by Barca and their history and Barca is too huge step for them
9. Some players have 100 of random personal problems: Samper and Bartra scared. Dembele and Adama IQ, Dembele and Rustu language problems, Quaresma didn't want to listen to coaches, Arda lost motivation when he came here, Deco divorced from his wife around 2007, Ronaldinho started to drink after 2006'.
10. And for example which ruined their Barca's careers, horrible injuries like Patrik Anderson and Gabriel Milito.
There are so many reasons why any signing can go wrong.
And I have actually manually counted all Barca's signing from 90s till today, and stats say that around 60-70% of all signing are flops and those players are sold after a year or two.
Only 3 out of 10 signings turn into players like Rakitic, Semedo or Lenglet (let's call them 80% good fits).
While perfect signings come once in 10-15 transfers.
Regarding La Masia talents, from the most promising kids, less than 10% of kids eventually reach a level of top 1st division clubs.
This is why I don't like posts:
ANYONE would be better than Suarez in this moment.
ANYONE would be better than Pique in this moment.
Or, we would have won a title even with Alena or Puig playing instead of Rakitic.
People are often asking me: you are shitting on every new player.
Well, since that is a reality.
Out of the 10 reasons which I have mentioned above, if a player has even only 1, he will usually end as a flop.
It doesn't mean that we should stop trying.
But we should lower the expectations.
And we should appreciate more even not so perfect players like Suarez, Rakitic, Lenglet and similar, because chances are that the next guy or two (or several of them in a row like midfielders Arda, Denis, Gomes, Paulinho, Samper or wingers Dembele, Malcom, Deulofeu, Coutinho, Griezmann) will be way worse than them.
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serghei
Senior Member
Valverde is a problem we can fix. Sure, there can be other problems which can appear in the case of the new manager. But once a problem becomes clear, and you are in the position to fix it, you must do exactly that. See Madrid with Benitez, making the switch to Zidane and winning 3 CLs in a row. Or Liverpool moving from Brendan Rogers to Klopp and dominating Europe a few years later.
Success doesn't happen by lowering the expectations. Success is achieved by aiming as high as possible, constantly trying to find the right men for the job, be it players, managers, technical directors, executives etc.
khaled_a_d
Senior Member
A bit off-topic, but this is a recipe for either success, or epic failures
Potroh
New member
Yes, Valverde is a huge problem indeed.
Let me sum it up for you just once:
First of all take the best and at the same time the most banal slogan of football: 11 outstanding or great players do NOT necessarily form a good and competitive TEAM. A good team needs a good coach, good vision, good tactics, good imagination, etc.
But the saga and the actual decline in playing qualities started with Lous Enrique. He is a way better coach compared to EV but made some horrendous mistakes in his last year as Barca's coach.
1. He didn't count on Alves anymore because thought A.Vidal will be a better solution.
2. He preferred Arda Turan in order to overhaul the mf.
3. Later he made Roberto a RB, which is an unnatural position for the midfielder.
4. He played Neymar too close to the touch-line and by that did not use Alba's pace and other capabilities. Neymar should have played a bit more centrally.
5. He wanted to generally speed up the slow Barca game-play, did that, but the midfield with the ageing Iniesta and Busq wasn't adaptable for that. Rakitic was, on a relatively mediocre level.
Valverde actually inherited these problems and ultimately added his own weaknesses to the scenario.
When he came:
- Neymar left and the attack formation collapsed by losing the pace of all of them.
- Without a true RB, serving Messi in attack, the left became prominent and Iniesta was too old to contribute much.
- Gomes never had the talent to work with and there was a shortage of power in midfield.
- Dembele, who was supposed to take the Neymar role, got a serious injury in his first game.
Thus, Valverde started his Barca reign by strengthening defense and leaving everything else to Messi and Suarez.
It was working on a surface level, no league defeats in the first year, only after Rome.
Valverde's mistakes and deficiencies - from the sole pro point of view - are the following:
- No tactics whatsoever, apart from "play safe", "pass it to Messi", and "individual geniuses will solve it" - mentality.
- No tactical variations according to the qualities and features of the actual opponent.
- Playing a 4-4-2 with a midfield where only Rakitic had some capability to attack.
- Possession-based pseudo-tactics, where even the 3rd attacker has to return deep, if playing his version of 4-3-3, which is still not a "real" 4-3-3.
- Playing Gomes all the time, when it was clear he can't really contribute.
- Bad system of substitutions, usually way too late and again according to his own defensive view.
- Younger players and talents got nothing from Valverde, apart from loss of confidence.
- He is a bad psychologist, a bad pedagogic and a bad tactician.
- He continuously "punishes" players after a worse show, instead of being consequent.
- He cannot be flexible at all with his "pyramid" of the untouchables.
- He has no idea about when and how to make rotations.
- The psychical state of the team has declined considerably under EV.
- Probably the intensity of trainings are not good enough to be competitive internationally.
- Frequent panic reactions, if a goal was conceded against a formidable opponent and giving up attack in these situations. "Play even safer" - EV says.
- His part in bad signings, and playing players out of their favorite positions.
- Always trusting elderly players and even signing elderly ones, around and above 30.
- Returning to the "have even more possession" formula, by seeing the decline of speed of the entire team.
- Knowing very little about modern football and its characteristics.
- Forcing many players to perform out of position.
- Absolute inability to enthuse the team.
- Absolute inability to allow players to ENJOY playing.
- Absolute inability to allow players to try incalculable solutions and play unpredictably.
- Being a dead-pan when winning and being clueless when losing.
- Never trying a 4-2-3-1 or any other formation.
Defense:
1. Using Roberto as RB for two years and not trusting Semedo for a minute.
2. Using both CBs in a rigid line, although both are slow, so a single opponent with pace can always make essential danger in the middle.
3. Not telling, teaching the defenders WHEN to commit faults ans when Not to.
Midfield:
1. The greatest mess in the team, hard to list his mistakes...
2. FDJ plays out of position, Arthur almost out of position, only Busq is there to serve in his own, but he became 3 times slower, so he is useful only against very weak opponents.
3. Rakitic played too much last year.
4. The entire midfield is lacking concept as such.
Attack:
1. Playing Coutinho, Griezmann out of position and simply "hoping" to adapt to a new game of theirs.
2. Dembele's Canossa-rounds, injuries, lack of confidence and not motivating him.
3. Inability to rest Suarez and admitting that he is old and can hardly move anymore.
4. Total and complete dependency on Messi.
These things are just general points of Valverde's failures, you can go forward and analyze Anfield and the like.
So yes, the difference is that you BBZ, always try to put heavy iron-balls into the necks of individual players, whereas I'm on the more common opinion, that the players one by one are very good, many of them world-class, but Valverde's system is either non-existent or it's absolutely horrible - for a tactically based team sports.
The historical aspect that you mention fails me, because I wasn't a Barca follower 30 years ago.
FinBarcelonafan
Well-known member
Well done. Insane post.
CatalinR10
Senior Member
serghei
Senior Member
Epic failures only if the means tou have do not match your ambitions. Like what Rayo was trying to do with Jemez. Barca are like the opposite in terms of power and capabilities.
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