2 - João Cancelo

J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
The full backs at Barca just now are being as let down by the tactics as anyone.

There is no decent movement from a rigid midfield to get involved in build up play and the forward players play for most part at top speed and for for kill too often rather than help build game and allow full backs etc to provide width going forward.

Would rather see the likes of Denis and Rafinha used as back up for front three than in centre mid. Would have Roberto in midfield, promote Alena and reduce Iniesta minutes and sell Raki.

Potentially sell Arda as well but he has been a good back up this season.

Why does Lucho sign Paco and try to get him to play the individual off the cuff style of MSN? Thats not his game at all he is a penalty box striker at best who needs a lot more help than this system allows.
 
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khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
BBZ8800 said:
Digne: ok player, way too expensive for a backup LB who offers absolutely nothing in attack. 4/10 transfer at max
Cillessen: ok player. Since he will play only in a CDR, it is quite questionable whether we needed an expensive NT Gk for that position. 6/10 transfer
Umtiti: a starter material, 10/10 transfer
Denis: imo, this guy is way below Barca's level. I don't get that thing "considering his price". There are tons of Cms worth 10M (how much we will pay for him in the end. We are already at 1M to City, 3,5M to Villareal and 3M to City again for him for 30 appearances this season=7,5M currently) whom we could have signed and who would be equally as average. If we needed a squad player, he is awesome. Sadly, we didn't need a squad player since we already have Roberto, Rafinha, Alena is knocking at our doors, plus Samper probably wouldn't be any worse than Denis. So, we have enough of young squad level Cms. We need a starter material. We won't find that in Denis. 3/10 transfer at max
Gomes: I had hopes in him, but I gave up, like 90% of fans. In this moment, his transfer is 3/10 also.
Paco: 1/10. No need to explain.

That's average of 4,5/10 rating for these 6 transfers.
6 transfers, 1 starter (Umtiti), plus if you'll fast forward 2-3 years, maybe only Digne or Cilless will stay here as expensive subs.

Out of 6 transfers, 40M for Gomes +10M for Denis + 30M for Paco=80M for 3 total misfits.

If you think that this was a decent summer in terms of transfers, I will reply: please remember a summer of 2004' when sporting director Txiki managed to do this for not too much money (I know, you should multiply each transfer by 3x to get the current prices):
1. Larsson, free transfer
2. Deco 21M
3. Etoo 24M
4. Guily 8,5M
5. Edmilson 8M
6. Belletti 3,7M
7. Silvinho 2M
8. Albertini, loan free

8 transfers, 5 starters (Deco, Etoo, Edmilson, Belletti, Guily), 2 subs (Larsson, Silvinho), 1 player who didn't stay (Albertini).

I know, that summer was different and we were looking for starters, unlike this summer (to some extent).
But still, I can't rate a summer with 6 signings where 1 guy turned into a world class deal (Umtiti) a good job.

If you would sell tomorrow Paco, Cillessen, Gomes, Denis and Digne, our team would be exactly the same as with them.
In fact, the only guy whom we would miss to some extent is Digne since Alba is injured all the time.
If you sell Gomes/Denis, we would still have Iniesta-Raki-Arda-Rafinha-(Roberto)-(Alena)-(Samper) in midfield.
Cillessen doesn't play at all.
Paco is a horrible fit.

Imo, a truly, truly horrible transfer window of 2016'.
I don't think that we will ever again see such a poor window from our team.
This one was the closest thing to Gaspart's transfers from early 00's.
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1-You lose all logic when you go and compare to situation that happened over half decade ago,football is an ever changing world and the change have high pace,and you do it all the time and compare to situations almost 2 decades ago. Sorry body but I can't really argue t something that I belive it shouldn't have been said in 1st place. I doubt any top team can get 4 world class starters in 2 summer in the current market anyway.

2-For the sake of your arguing with your Logic.
Summer 2004

24+21+8.5+8+3.7+2= 67.2
Using your formula to multiply it by 3 for the football market inflation = 201.6M
Only 4 of them was starter when all players were healthy (Eto,Deco,Edmilson & Giuly),3 bench player and one left.
All knowing that we were absolutely lucky to get a guy like Larsson for free back then.
Only 1 of them was good starter more than 3 years,Giuly left after 3,Edmilson injured one season and was awful in last year,Deco was starter for 4 years but was bad in his 4th season.
So no,that 2004 summer as great as it is it can't be the standard to compare other summers,too much money and short term sighted with Only Eto really good for long term. Back then the team needed immediate success and had young core with Xavi,Iniesta,VV,Puyol(26 is relatively young for CB),Motta etc and needed players that put team back on trophies.

3-I believe last summer was last summer,and I think we will have many players will have long term impact on the team,Digne is very good player and could very well be our future starting LB,Umtiti is clearly a future starter too. I don't think it is gr8 but it isn't bad either in terms of those who we signed.

4-Denis deal is still good for price
-You keep mentioning what we paid for City,may I dare to ask why? because that was already paid in 2013,if we passed on getting him back we don't get our money back
And Denis was a starter (some would add was one of the team starts too) in the team that finished top 4 in Liga & Europa League,many teams like Napoli,City itself & Arsenal were rumored to have interest in him.
-We pay 800K for every 10 games with maximum 8M. we paid 3.25M for him. so 3.25M+2.4M for a guy played 30 Games isn't a bad deal. You are fooling yourself or haven't watched him in Villarreal if you think we can't sell him for profit.
So no,he isn't by any mean a bad signing from Roberto,I am not trying to be aggressive but only a moron of a Sporting director would have passed on the chance to get him back and thankfully Roberto wasn't a moron.
-Plenty of CM for 10M who are better? in current market? Give me a break man. Those are rarity not plenty. And even with those there is a lot of circumstances that affect where they go,most of them would prefer a smaller club where they can get more playing time.

5-Considering all what you said abut Cillessen and MATS this one is amusing body,he is a good GK and good addition to the team,him playing CDR only is on Lucho not Roberto,he got a good GK who fits the team and ok to play as back up and ready to compete for MATS. we will have a new coach next year and who knows may be we find that we signed a future starting GK if MATS keep fucking up

6-You are unncesseraly making fun of Roberto b/c of stupid rumor
 
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khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
JamDav1982 said:
The full backs at Barca just now are being as let down by the tactics as anyone.

There is no decent movement from a rigid midfield to get involved in build up play and the forward players play for most part at top speed and for for kill too often rather than help build game and allow full backs etc to provide width going forward.

Would rather see the likes of Denis and Rafinha used as back up for front three than in centre mid. Would have Roberto in midfield, promote Alena and reduce Iniesta minutes and sell Raki.

Potentially sell Arda as well but he has been a good back up this season.

Why does Lucho sign Paco and try to get him to play the individual off the cuff style of MSN? Thats not his game at all he is a penalty box striker at best who needs a lot more help than this system allows.
Click to expand...

I think Paco deal was the same type of mistake that Pep done with Ibra,signing player based on certain quality without understading his whole game and limitation,ok not sure it is the right comparison :lol:
Paco is very good passer for no9, I think that is why they thought he will do well in our system and I am guilty of thinking the same when we were rumored to sign him and that is why I was supporting the deal. But the other aspects of his game screams he doesn't fit the system.

As for midfielder,I honestly starting to think we need to get rid of many of the players we have tbh ,IMHO we have many tweeners in the team in our system,neither Rafinha,Arda,Denis are true wingers or AM/CM in our system. All of them are good player but non are gr8 player either.
 
R

raki

New member
khaled_a_d said:
I think Paco deal was the same type of mistake that Pep done with Ibra,signing player based on certain quality without understading his whole game and limitation,ok not sure it is the right comparison :lol:
Paco is very good passer for no9, I think that is why they thought he will do well in our system and I am guilty of thinking the same when we were rumored to sign him and that is why I was supporting the deal. But the other aspects of his game screams he doesn't fit the system.

As for midfielder,I honestly starting to think we need to get rid of many of the players we have tbh ,IMHO we have many tweeners in the team in our system,neither Rafinha,Arda,Denis are true wingers or AM/CM in our system. All of them are good player but non are gr8 player either.
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The only problem with Ibra was his personality. Obnoxious and 100% different from the rest. As a player he was great and scored 25 goals and many assists .

Alcacer is a skinny dwarf. I would have signed Lucas Perez. 18 goals, can play in 3 positions in attack. Good physique. Only 18M. Alcacer for 30??????????????????????????

FUCK ME MOLLY
 
God Serena

God Serena

New member
khaled_a_d said:
I think Paco deal was the same type of mistake that Pep done with Ibra,signing player based on certain quality without understading his whole game and limitation,ok not sure it is the right comparison :lol:
Paco is very good passer for no9, I think that is why they thought he will do well in our system and I am guilty of thinking the same when we were rumored to sign him and that is why I was supporting the deal. But the other aspects of his game screams he doesn't fit the system.

As for midfielder,I honestly starting to think we need to get rid of many of the players we have tbh ,IMHO we have many tweeners in the team in our system,neither Rafinha,Arda,Denis are true wingers or AM/CM in our system. All of them are good player but non are gr8 player either.
Click to expand...

Munir was also a good passer, but that didn't stop us from making the trade.
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
khaled_a_d said:
4-Denis deal is still good for price
-You keep mentioning what we paid for City,may I dare to ask why? because that was already paid in 2013,if we passed on getting him back we don't get our money back
And Denis was a starter (some would add was one of the team starts too) in the team that finished top 4 in Liga & Europa League,many teams like Napoli,City itself & Arsenal were rumored to have interest in him.
Click to expand...

I am mentioning what we paid to City because if Denis is our guy, we should count all the money which we had spent on him to actually have him here now.

For example:
1. if you buy a player XX from let's say Milan for 10 Millions
2. and then you loan him or sell with a buyback option
Let's say that you sell him for 5M, with a buyback option 10M
Then, if you buy him back one day, his price is not only 5M (from this last transaction), but actually 10M paid to Milan 2 years ago and 5M paid this summer to the 2nd club for a buyback

So, yes, a buyback for Denis was only 3,5M or whatever price.
But what we invested to actually have Denis here today is:
1. a fee paid to City to get him here
2. a 2nd fee paid in his 2nd transaction last summer from Villareal. So, we have actually paid him twice.
3. add to this add ons (800,000 Euros for each 10 matches played)

So, after this season it will be 30+ matches and 2,4M paid this season as additional fees for Denis.
Since he will stay at least one more season to test him properly under a new coach, he will probably get 30 matches in the next season also, which wil be another 2,4M in additional fees.

That will be 10-ish M for him in total to City, Villarealy and for additional fees to City.
10M for another squad player, not too much better than Rafinha, Roberto, and probably Samper and Alena.

Ok, we will probably get some money back from his sale.
But we will do the same with Gomes, so Gomes also isn't wasted 40M as people say.

Further, someone may reply: if Denis played 30 matches this season, then he was a success.
I don't agree. He played in 30 matches, but a lot of times as a sub in the last 20 minuts. Plus, except in 3-4 matches, he was poor to average in majority of matches with zero impact/influence on anything.
So, a fact that he played 30 matches in my eyes isn't a sign that he was a success, but a sign that Lucho just rotated all players all the time.
Denis is playing less and less lately and it seems that he is the last pick among Iniesta, Raki, Gomes, Arda and Rafinha.

Further, even Paco played 16 matches and offered absolutely nothing, and he will probably reach 20+ matches till the end of a season.
So, a number of matches played don't need to suggest anything.

So, if you ae looking from a financial aspect:
= transfer of Denis wasn't that bad since we paid around 10M, and we will recover some (or all) money back in a summer of 2018 probably
From Barca's point of view in terms of getting a valuable player:
= we got absolutely nothing, except a squad player and 2 years lost on testing him. We will now have to buy new Cms instead of Gomes and Denis and then test them AGAIN for 1-2 season to see whether they are good enough for us.
While Real, for example, has a fully functional team currently without a need for experiments, tests and new players, like us.
Real and Barca switched positions.
Real is a stable club currently and we have no idea where are we currently and where we should go in the future, nor with which coach, which players and which system.

In terms of poor transfers financially, deals of Arda, Paco (and imo Digne) are way worse and way too expensive.
In terms of actually improving our squad, majority of Barca's transfers in the last 2 seasons are horrible (Arda, Vidal, Cilless, Gomes, Denis, Paco, Digne). I know that those are not all transfers made by Robert.
Umtiti is the only one (1 out 8) where the board has actually improved our team.

If you'll or someone else reply: we needed only subs. Well, we didn't need only subs.
We needed some subs and some starters since our current team is dying.
Board tried to a find a starter both in Arda (probably instead of Raki), Vidal, Gomes, Denis and Umtiti.
They succeeded only with Umtiti.
 
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khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
BBZ8800 said:
I am mentioning what we paid to City because if Denis is our guy, we should count all the money which we had spent on him to actually have him here now.

For example:
1. if you buy a player XX from let's say Milan for 10 Millions
2. and then you loan him or sell with a buyback option
Let's say that you sell him for 5M, with a buyback option 10M
Then, if you buy him back one day, his price is not only 5M (from this last transaction), but actually 10M paid to Milan 2 years ago and 5M paid this summer to the 2nd club for a buyback

So, yes, a buyback for Denis was only 3,5M or whatever price.
But what we invested to actually have Denis here today is:
1. a fee paid to City to get him here
2. a 2nd fee paid in his 2nd transaction last summer from Villareal. So, we have actually paid him twice.
3. add to this add ons (800,000 Euros for each 10 matches played)

So, after this season it will be 30+ matches and 2,4M paid this season as additional fees for Denis.
Since he will stay at least one more season to test him properly under a new coach, he will probably get 30 matches in the next season also, which wil be another 2,4M in additional fees.

That will be 10-ish M for him in total to City, Villarealy and for additional fees to City.
10M for another squad player, not too much better than Rafinha, Roberto, and probably Samper and Alena.

Ok, we will probably get some money back from his sale.
But we will do the same with Gomes, so Gomes also isn't wasted 40M as people say.

Further, someone may reply: if Denis played 30 matches this season, then he was a success.
I don't agree. He played in 30 matches, but a lot of times as a sub in the last 20 minuts. Plus, except in 3-4 matches, he was poor to average in majority of matches with zero impact/influence on anything.
So, a fact that he played 30 matches in my eyes isn't a sign that he was a success, but a sign that Lucho just rotated all players all the time.
Denis is playing less and less lately and it seems that he is the last pick among Iniesta, Raki, Gomes, Arda and Rafinha.

Further, even Paco played 16 matches and offered absolutely nothing, and he will probably reach 20+ matches till the end of a season.
So, a number of matches played don't need to suggest anything.

So, if you ae looking from a financial aspect:
= transfer of Denis wasn't that bad since we paid around 10M, and we will recover some (or all) money back in a summer of 2018 probably
From Barca's point of view in terms of getting a valuable player:
= we got absolutely nothing, except a squad player and 2 years lost on testing him. We will now have to buy new Cms instead of Gomes and Denis and then test them AGAIN for 1-2 season to see whether they are good enough for us.
While Real, for example, has a fully functional team currently without a need for experiments, tests and new players, like us.
Real and Barca switched positions.
Real is a stable club currently and we have no idea where are we currently and where we should go in the future, nor with which coach, which players and which system.

In terms of poor transfers financially, deals of Arda, Paco (and imo Digne) are way worse and way too expensive.
In terms of actually improving our squad, majority of Barca's transfers in the last 2 seasons are horrible (Arda, Vidal, Cilless, Gomes, Denis, Paco, Digne). I know that those are not all transfers made by Robert.
Umtiti is the only one (1 out 8) where the board has actually improved our team.

If you'll or someone else reply: we needed only subs. Well, we didn't need only subs.
We needed some subs and some starters since our current team is dying.
Board tried to a find a starter both in Arda (probably instead of Raki), Vidal, Gomes, Denis and Umtiti.
They succeeded only with Umtiti.
Click to expand...

You serously continuing in the Denis debate?
Man,we are discussing Robert signings here,if you want to write essay about the club that is fine
For Robert the decision has nothing to do with what is paid before,because that is already paid and there is no way the club get it back. In fact if he passed on signing Denis it means he acknowledge that the 1.25M paid for City was just for 1 year in Barca B.
For him he should assess what if the money that will be paid in future is worth it or not
For him 3.25M and add-ons for a player that other clubs would gladly pay 15-20M for him considering what he showed in Villarreal is a bargain. He is alone a financial investment specially when the coach himself admits he wanted him back since 2015
Arda wasn't signing by Roberto,so irrelevant to the current discussion too.
And you are underrating many of the signings,Digne is almost playing a starter minutes and he has been very valuable to this team,this club won't get a good back up for less than 20M in today market. It could happen from time to time but that won't be the rule anymore. We are the wealthiest club in the world currently,we have high standard and other clubs knows it. Any player we are gonna try to sign his price will get inflated immediately.
And again,I am talking about players signed since that is the thing you made fun of Robert in your 1st post,so stick to the 6 players we signed and don't go off-topic for sake of proving your points (hell pointing to players he didn't sign)
No matter how you try to around it,4 out of 6 are solid players even for their prices.1 was coach choice,other is disaster and it is on him even if he was his 10th choice.
Always remember that sporing director has to work with coach too,you can't judge our signing only on him or only on coach
 
khaled_a_d

khaled_a_d

Senior Member
God Serena said:
Munir was also a good passer, but that didn't stop us from making the trade.
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I know you don't rate anything at Paco at all,But I think Paco really beats Munir in that aspect even right now.

jamrock said:
Digne as zero chance of being our starter in the future he offers zero in attack.

Decent backup though
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Digne has been known more of an attacking LB IIRC,I think once things click better between him and Neymar he will do much better job in attacking,he is also young so lots of room for improvement
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
khaled_a_d said:
Always remember that sporing director has to work with coach too,you can't judge our signing only on him or only on coach
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I know that.
But imo, a sporting director should offer 2-3 players and a coach should pick one.
Or they should work together.
If a coach wants some nonsense players, a director should say no, that will hurt a club.
Or, you can let a coach to buy a silly player once, but not 5 or 6 times.
So, if Lucho wanted wrong players once or twice, I can buy that story.
But if Lucho wanted wrong players 5 times in a row and sporting directors just said: yes, ok, yes, ok. Then what is the point of a sporting director? Just to listen coach's wishes, to negotiate a lower price and to pay the money?
Where is a club's longterm planning in that story (and that should be a job of a sporting director. He should be above the coach)?

Even though, even Laporta bought Henry only because he personally wanted him (Txiki wanted Diego Forlan and Rijkaard didn't need Henry).
So, I can agree with you that there are a few influences surely from all sides.
But NOT all the time and in every single transfer.

About other players from your post, I just can't agree on Digne. He was way too expensive for a reserve full back who brings absolutely nothing in attack except running up and down for 90 minutes.
About Denis, I also don't agree. I don't believe that any sane club would pay 15-20M for him.
But ok, maybe I am wrong and he will turn into a player in some other club and maybe someone will really pay a silly amount of money to us for him one day.
(I know that you said that he was worth 15-20M last season. I am saying that I don't believe that we will earn money on him one day after his displays here.)
 
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