soul24rage
Senior Member
It's going to be EV soon.
Jürgen Klopp
- Thread starter El Flaco
- Start date
It's going to be EV soon.
serghei
Senior Member
This guy is Pep Guardiola level of manager, meaning one of the best managers of all time. Klopp's Liverpool is probably the 2nd best team of the last 20 years or so.
I'd have it as
2009-2011 Barcelona (2CL, 3 La Ligas)
2018-current Liverpool (1 CL, 1 PL and counting)
2012-2014 Bayern (1 CL and 2 Bundesliga)
2016-2018 Real Madrid (3 CLs, 1 La Liga)
Tier A+ would be Guardiola and Klopp, all the others, including the great italian managers like Lippi or Ancelotti or Mourinho, Simeone types are a step lower. Ferguson is tough to rank due to him spending so much time at one club, but I'd also rank him as lower than Klopp or Guardiola.
2011 Barcelona vs today's Liverpool would probably be the most insane football match-up possible in the 20 years I've been watching football. It's like elite posssession + elite pressing vs elite counter attacking + elite pressing. Still side with our 2011 team (I'd reckon we'd beat this Liverpool team 5 out of 10 times with 2 draws and 3 losses, something like that). Having the ball and having incredible players who know how to do with it, and an elite manager who knows possession football inside-out is something else.
Real Madrid should be wetting themselves at the tough of getting Klopp, btw. His style is so Madrid-like that if they ever get him they would rule Europe so much it's crazy to even think about it.
This Liverpool is essentially a better drilled, more systemic and more aggressive version of the 2017 Madrid. The scary thing about them is that they are elevating the individual level of each player beyond what we all thought it was possible. Liverpool under Klopp used to be a team of hard work, great tactics, and few individual match-winners. Somehow of a triumph of hard work over talent. But this is changing in my mind. The level of Salah and Mane (less so Firminho) is right up there with the individual level of everybody else except Messi. Only Messi can claim to have acces to a level of individual brilliancy that nobody from Liverpool is capable of reaching. All the other players can't be put on higher level than these two star players from Liverpool. Mbappe, Neymar, Benzema, Lewandowski. Forget it. Salah and Mane beat all of those. Also, Wijnaldum and Fabinho can already be called one of the best midfielders in the world, top 5 in their position no doubt. Only De Jong, and Kroos on a great day are as good. You can call both of them world class. So, they added this individual component too, due to how Klopp develops each player.
I hope everyone learns from this just how influential a great manager is. It's like a film director. Nobody speaks about Goodfellas as anything other than a masterpiece by Scorsese. Or Taxi Driver. Or Raging Bull. Even though all of those movies had knockout performances by incredible lead actors. It's how it is in football too. The single biggest credit for building a super-team is that of the manager. Pep's Barcelona. Not Messi's Barcelona. Klopp's Liverpool. Not Mane's, Salah's or Van Dijk's Liverpool. FFS, just understand that every great team starts with a world class manager. Stop fucking around and roll with the program.
I'd have it as
2009-2011 Barcelona (2CL, 3 La Ligas)
2018-current Liverpool (1 CL, 1 PL and counting)
2012-2014 Bayern (1 CL and 2 Bundesliga)
2016-2018 Real Madrid (3 CLs, 1 La Liga)
Tier A+ would be Guardiola and Klopp, all the others, including the great italian managers like Lippi or Ancelotti or Mourinho, Simeone types are a step lower. Ferguson is tough to rank due to him spending so much time at one club, but I'd also rank him as lower than Klopp or Guardiola.
2011 Barcelona vs today's Liverpool would probably be the most insane football match-up possible in the 20 years I've been watching football. It's like elite posssession + elite pressing vs elite counter attacking + elite pressing. Still side with our 2011 team (I'd reckon we'd beat this Liverpool team 5 out of 10 times with 2 draws and 3 losses, something like that). Having the ball and having incredible players who know how to do with it, and an elite manager who knows possession football inside-out is something else.
Real Madrid should be wetting themselves at the tough of getting Klopp, btw. His style is so Madrid-like that if they ever get him they would rule Europe so much it's crazy to even think about it.
This Liverpool is essentially a better drilled, more systemic and more aggressive version of the 2017 Madrid. The scary thing about them is that they are elevating the individual level of each player beyond what we all thought it was possible. Liverpool under Klopp used to be a team of hard work, great tactics, and few individual match-winners. Somehow of a triumph of hard work over talent. But this is changing in my mind. The level of Salah and Mane (less so Firminho) is right up there with the individual level of everybody else except Messi. Only Messi can claim to have acces to a level of individual brilliancy that nobody from Liverpool is capable of reaching. All the other players can't be put on higher level than these two star players from Liverpool. Mbappe, Neymar, Benzema, Lewandowski. Forget it. Salah and Mane beat all of those. Also, Wijnaldum and Fabinho can already be called one of the best midfielders in the world, top 5 in their position no doubt. Only De Jong, and Kroos on a great day are as good. You can call both of them world class. So, they added this individual component too, due to how Klopp develops each player.
I hope everyone learns from this just how influential a great manager is. It's like a film director. Nobody speaks about Goodfellas as anything other than a masterpiece by Scorsese. Or Taxi Driver. Or Raging Bull. Even though all of those movies had knockout performances by incredible lead actors. It's how it is in football too. The single biggest credit for building a super-team is that of the manager. Pep's Barcelona. Not Messi's Barcelona. Klopp's Liverpool. Not Mane's, Salah's or Van Dijk's Liverpool. FFS, just understand that every great team starts with a world class manager. Stop fucking around and roll with the program.
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Centauri B
New member
As good as Liverpool are, we had them dead and buried last season, with EV on the bench, Coutinho, Pique, Lenglet, Raki, Buscuits and Vidal. It took Sunday League type of mistakes, individual errors and lots of luck to get them through. For all the hype and points they are getting this season, they are belaboring even against relatively weak opposition such as Aston Villa, Sheffield, RBS, Napoli etc...
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Imo, you have a recency bias.
I don't see how Klopp's Liverpool can be infront of Alex Ferguson's Man Utd?
Man Utd 8 league titles from 1994 to 2003.
Treble in 1999'.
Real Madrid Galacticos under Del Bosque in early 2000's before their fall:
2 CLs in 20002 and 2002 and 2 La Ligas in 2001 and 2003.
You probably haven't watched them live, but they were brutal and frustrating to watch (as a Barca fan).
I remember that Ferguson and Man Utd's players used to say: it is like playing with against ghosts.
When they have a ball, you can't get anywhere near them.
Don't even try to take the ball away from them. In the moment you come near one player, the ball is already 20 meters away on the other side. Ghosts...
They weren't far from Pep's Barca:
For me, in this moment, even Rijkaard's Barca 2004-2006 has more trophies and fame than a current Liverpool.
** Also, don't forget that today there is a bigger difference between rich and normal teams, so it is easier to dominate and break records today than in 1998 or 2006.
In 1998, Real had let's say 50M to spend, and average teams had 10M.
Today, Real has 500 millions to spend, and average teams 20M.
Big teams were 4-5 more richer than normal teams back then.
Today, Barca or Real are like 20-50 times more richer than some bottom table teams.
And thus, you have super rich teams with super expensive players and teams with 100 points per season, 11:1 wins and and even guys like CR7 and Neymar scoring 50 goals per season and looking like best players of all time.
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serghei
Senior Member
We did. But not because of Valverde. Because of the talent we have.
Let me tell you who Messi and Luis Surez are. I know the love-hate regarding Suarez here, since he is our nutcase and sometimes he is infuriating. But these two stepped up big time on Camp Nou vs Liverpool. They created the 3-0. Liverpool dominated, but our killers killed them, handing us this advantage. Now this is where a top manager takes this gift, and sees it through and makes the final. But Valverde wasn't able to do that.
Luis Suarez is one of the greatest forwards of the last 20 years. The amount of grazy goals this guys scored in the last 5 years or so is insane. We talk about him as being finished, and he goes one and scores a jaw dropping golazo out of thin air. That goal he scored against Mallorca a week ago or some of the goals he scores vs Madrid. I think nobody in the world has the boldness and the audacity to even attempt something as cheeky as that. Not even Neymar. I expect only Ronaldinho to even try and succeed something like that. In fact, the Mallorca goal was a 5 seconds time travel back to Ronaldinho days.
Messi is Messi. The best player I've seen, and most certainly the best player everybody who wasn't at least 10 years old in 1986 has every seen too (only they are too biased to admit it).
These players made it close. And the Camp Nou special vibe, which is very similar to Anfield actually.
The whole Barcelona Liverpool affair was us having a couple of genius players and Liverpool having Klopp. Both team had superb home ground pedigree and not as good away performances.
Take Messi out and Liverpool wins the tie easily.
serghei
Senior Member
Neither of the United teams reached as high a level as current Liverpool (United was incredible thanks to their longevity under Ferguson), especially in CL. This Liverpool is more dominating in the CL and also more dominating in Premier League than any of Ferguson's United sides. They will probably break 100 points this year if they stay as focused and don't relax thanks to their huge lead.
They also got near 100 points last year.
The football has evolved tactically imo since Guardiola days. It's an evolution which is undeniable.
Centauri B
New member
That is precisely my point. Despite having a manager that everyone says is the GOAT of poor managers, and 3-4 players that well past their best, we had this awesome team, managed by this awesome manager, dead and buried. That is just one game though, so I won't put too much stock into it. What about the grave difficulty they are having in winning most of their games? Luck had been falling their way for some time now, and that is indisputable.
Messi is of course Messi. Nobody in the history of the game compares to him, not even Diego or Pele. I can explain why if you want.
serghei
Senior Member
Yes, but that is why we have to understand that we have great players. Sometimes we act as if we have crap players and that is why we lost vs Liverpool. Completely false. It has been proven to be false a lot of times, including in every clasico where we trash and outplay Madrid sides who win multiple CLs. We have insane players, but haven't had a great manager in more than half a decade.
The solution to our problems is to address the fact that with the team we have it should be unacceptable to lose 4-0 to a Liverpool missing their best attacking players. And once you address that, you have to fire Valverde on the spot. But we are in denial.
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serghei
Senior Member
Again, I make the film director comparison, because managing a team is much similar to managing a film. There are many pieces and many assets you need to get right, staff members you need to make sure they are great at their job (sound editors, similar to fitness staff, cinematographer is similar to an assistant manager, board or technical director in football is much like a movie producer or studio and so on, a casting director is like a chief of the scouting section). You have to know how to organize them to make it work.
De Niro and Al Pacino have started together in The Godfather, Part II (Copolla), Heat (Michael Mann), The Irishman (Martin Scorsese), and Righteous Kill (Jon Avnet, had to look it up
). 3 of those are masterpieces for different reasons, one of them is a hilarious flop.
You can use De Niro's and Al Pacino's insane acting skills perfectly, and create masterpieces. If you are a great director of a level of a Copolla, Scorsese or Mann. Or you can show how crap you are as a director, like the Avnet chap, and use them in a complete flop of a movie. What Righteous Kill is for De Niro and Al Pacino, is what Liverpool - Barcelona 4-0 is for Messi and Suarez.
The examples are endless. The quality of the ingredients is not a complete assurance that the whole will be as great as the pieces forming it. It can be total crap. The manager is like the director, or the chef. He takes the best ingredients, adds his talent and skill, and makes the best dish. If he's crap, or average, he won't create something great, no matter the quality of the pieces.
De Niro and Al Pacino have started together in The Godfather, Part II (Copolla), Heat (Michael Mann), The Irishman (Martin Scorsese), and Righteous Kill (Jon Avnet, had to look it up
). 3 of those are masterpieces for different reasons, one of them is a hilarious flop.You can use De Niro's and Al Pacino's insane acting skills perfectly, and create masterpieces. If you are a great director of a level of a Copolla, Scorsese or Mann. Or you can show how crap you are as a director, like the Avnet chap, and use them in a complete flop of a movie. What Righteous Kill is for De Niro and Al Pacino, is what Liverpool - Barcelona 4-0 is for Messi and Suarez.
The examples are endless. The quality of the ingredients is not a complete assurance that the whole will be as great as the pieces forming it. It can be total crap. The manager is like the director, or the chef. He takes the best ingredients, adds his talent and skill, and makes the best dish. If he's crap, or average, he won't create something great, no matter the quality of the pieces.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Is a CL or league titles (or both) a measurement of a success?
About Liverpool, I have wrote above: no one was dominating like current Barca, City, Liverpool.
Also, Bayern has like 7-8 league titles in a row.
Juve also.
Barca/Real also.
Does that mean that all of these teams are the best teams EVER?
Or, more likely: current teams are too rich, compared to league opponents and they are winning all matches and breaking 100 points barrier.
EPL 1998:
1998: Arsenal 78
1999: Man Utd 79
2000: Man Utd 91
2001: Man Utd 80
La Liga 2000:
Deportivo 69 points (66 goals)
Barca 64 (70 goals)
Valencia 64 (59 goals)
Zaragoza 63 (60 goals)
Real Galacticos 62 (58 goals)
Real Madrid Galacticos:
2000: 62 points, 58:48 goals difference (They won a CL)
2001: 80 points, 81:40 goals difference
2002: 66 points, 69:44 goals difference (they won a CL)
2003: 78 points, 86:42 goals difference
2004: 70 points, 72:54 goals difference
The highest points EVER=80
They won a CL in 2000 and 2002, when they managed to score only 58 and 69 goals in La Liga.
So, a team with R9, Raul, Morientes, Figo, Zidane, Beckham, Guti, Roberto Carlos struggled to score goals.
Yet, a RM with CR7 is scoring 100-120 goals per season?
Real is banging 100-120 goals per season.
Barca is banging 100-120 goals per season.
City is banging 100 goals and winning 100 points.
Liverpool is banging 100 goals and winning 100 points.
What is more likely:
1. that ALL Barca/Real/Man City/Liverpool are suddenly the best and the most dominating teams in a history of football?
2. OR: the difference between big and small teams is 10 times larger today.
And R9&Zidane&Figo, played 2:1 and 1:1 all the time against Gironas of that era, while today every Nou Camp/Bernabeu home La Liga match ends with 7:1 6:0 and similar scores with the opponents barely entering our half.
Look at Real's HOME LA liga matches in 2000:
4:1 Numancia
1:1 Deportivo
2:3 Valencia
2:2 Oviedo
1:3 Atletico
1:1 Sociedad
1:5 Zaragoza
2:1 Espanyol
2:1 Mallorca
2:1 Betis
3:1 Bilbao
1:0 Malaga
3:0 Barcelona
3:1 Sevilla
0:0 Rayo
1:0 Celta
2:4 Racing
0:1 Alaves
0:1 Valladolid
19 home matches: 9 wins, 4 draws, 6 defeats, goals difference at home: 31:27
Now, remember those:
2015/16:
Real:
Rayo 10:2
Celta 7:1
Espanyol 6:0
Espanyol 6:0 again
Betis 5:0
Deportivo 5:0
Gijon 5:1
Getafe 5:1
Sevilla 4:0
Eibar 4:0
Getafe 4:1
Bilbao 4:2
Today, Real and Barca can score 6-10 goals per match.
In 2000, Real needed 5 Months from the 1st February till the end of a season to score 11 home goals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999–2000_Real_Madrid_CF_season
The point is: in a current era, Bayern, Barca, Real, City, Liverpool, Juve are so rich (compared to 90s and 00s), that 90% of league matches are monkey easy and just a statpadding contest.
All titles, 100 points, 50 goals per seasons, and records from guys like CR7, Suarez, Neymar, Benzema, Lewa, you have to take with a pinch of salt.
Centauri B
New member
Again, I make the film director comparison, because managing a team is much similar to managing a film. There are many pieces and many assets you need to get right, staff members you need to make sure they are great at their job (sound editors, similar to fitness staff, cinematographer is similar to an assistant manager, board or technical director in football is much like a movie producer or studio and so on, a casting director is like a chief of the scouting section). You have to know how to organize them to make it work.
De Niro and Al Pacino have started together in The Godfather, Part II (Copolla), Heat (Michael Mann), The Irishman (Martin Scorsese), and Righteous Kill (Jon Avnet, had to look it up
You can use De Niro's and Al Pacino's insane acting skills perfectly, and create masterpieces. If you are a great director of a level of a Copolla, Scorsese or Mann. Or you can show how crap you are as a director, like the Avnet chap, and use them in a complete flop of a movie. What Righteous Kill is for De Niro and Al Pacino, is what Liverpool - Barcelona 4-0 is for Messi and Suarez.
The examples are endless. The quality of the ingredients is not a complete assurance that the whole will be as great as the pieces forming it. It can be total crap. The manager is like the director, or the chef. He takes the best ingredients, adds his talent and skill, and makes the best dish. If he's crap, or average, he won't create something great, no matter the quality of the pieces.
I disagree with your cinematic comparison. The film director is the most important factor in a movie's quality, in football, the quality of the players is the decisive factor. For example, Hitchcock, Kubrick, David Lean, Tarantino, Sergio Leone, FF Copolla, could all make masterpieces regardless of budget, actors, genre etc... The same is absolutely impossible in football. All of the great managers of recent years have had the luxury of tremendous amounts of money, gifted players as well as lucky breaks that helped them build reputations and build on them with even more money, players etc...Pep, Klopp, Jose, Ancelotti, Zidane (he won 3 CLs, lol) can only do it if they have all the resources at their disposal.
serghei
Senior Member
True. But the comparison is valid inside the setup I proposed. A bad director can make a crap film filled with superstars, just as a crap manager can make a joke in Europe out of a team having some of the best players around. I never claimed a top director makes diamonds out of shit.
Some things are valid in one way, with the reverse not being true. It's one of the things in logic. All lions are animals, but not all animals are lions - type of thing.
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KingLeo10
Senior Member
I agree with you that Klopp is amazing but you're REALLY underestimating the sheer force of superstars all over the pitch.
Here's the best teams of the last 20 years, IMO:
1) Guardiola's Barca 08-11 (2 CL, 1 CL SF, 3 Liga)
2) Bayern 12-14 (1 CL, 1 CL final, 2 Buli, historic performances in CL v juve and barca) ; Barca 14-15 (Treble beating Juve, Bayern, PSG, City in CL; RM and AM domestically)
3) Madrid 16-18 ( 3 CL, dominated historic clubs like Bayern and Juve consistently, 1 Liga)
4) United 07-09 (1 CL, 1 CL final, 2 PL)
5) Pool 17-19 (1 CL, 1 CL final, 0 PL)
All 4 of the teams above Pool had multiple CL winners, multiple national league winners, Euro winners, WC winners all over the field.
United in 07/09 had CR7 (just entering his prime), Rooney (prime), Tevez, Ferdinand/Vidic (easily best CB pair in the world at the time and better than VVD and whoever else), VDS, Evra and Scholes, Giggs to call upon when needed.
I just don't think Liverpool would beat any of these teams more often than not. People fawn at Salah and Mane but prime Robbery was still a cut above.
If Pool win PL and CL this season, they have a chance to go 2nd on this list.
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serghei
Senior Member
Sure. Fair enough. I wasn't talking about achievements as much as playing level. Also, regarding Liverpool, you can count them as PL winners of 2019-2020 already. And if they repeat the CL this means their achievements are up there with the best.
NoWinNoFee
Banned
I'd places Sir Alex's 1999 treble winning squad as the best team United he's ever had, they had a midfield of Giggs/Scholes/Keane/Beckham, that's as good as any there's ever been, that squad in general had everything in terms of attack and defense too.
Arsenal invincibles also has to go down as one of the Premier League's greatest.
For me City (when all players are fit) are best team in England and in Europe, if City played Liverpool in the Champion League final last season, i believe 7 times out of 10 Liverpool would have lost.
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