11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

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MessiCam

Guest
JamDav1982 said:
Shots on goal is not the whole story. Been through this before.

As much as anything it is the type of chances giving away more than how many shots the other team gets.

Eibar who have conceded 34 have a better defence than Atletico who have conceded 9 and Real Madrid have a better defence than Barca?

Who knew.
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Again. That’s not the point. The point is teams are fashioning more chances against us. MaTS has been absolutely huge for us. He has saved a ridiculous amount of clear cut chances. So there are high quality chances in there.
 
Joan

Joan

Well-known member
It's not that firm as you make it out. We don't play a flat 442 - it's easily transformed, Iniesta is no winger etc. 433 doesn't guarantee numerical superiority.
Being vulnerable to counters is not due to formation, it's due to the players we use. Raki, Busq, and Iniesta are gonna be slow no matter what way you organize them. They are not gonna run much, either. If we had Kante, it might be different, as Z. points out.
If you don't see we are more compact when defending, we are probably not watching the same matches.
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
MessiCam said:
Again. That’s not the point. The point is teams are fashioning more chances against us. MaTS has been absolutely huge for us. He has saved a ridiculous amount of clear cut chances. So there are high quality chances in there.
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The quality of chances have to matter as well and no top team has ever really been without GK at top of game.

Who do you think has the best defence in europe?

Having a strong defence is not about the number of chances created it is about the quality of them.
 
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M

MessiCam

Guest
Joan Laporta said:
It's not that firm as you make it out. We don't play a flat 442 - it's easily transformed, Iniesta is no winger etc. 433 doesn't guarantee numerical superiority.
Being vulnerable to counters is not due to formation, it's due to the players we use. Raki, Busq, and Iniesta are gonna be slow no matter what way you organize them. They are not gonna run much, either. If we had Kante, it might be different, as Z. points out.
If you don't see we are more compact when defending, we are probably not watching the same matches.
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Playing with 3 central midfielders is better than 2. It always has been. There is a reason why teams who dominate possession tend to play with it.

Here are the xG’s per formation

Here are the xG’s per shot zone

This we’re better defensively is a complete myth.
 
J

JamDav1982

Senior Member
MessiCam said:
Playing with 3 central midfielders is better than 2. It always has been. There is a reason why teams who dominate possession tend to play with it.

Here are the xG’s per formation

Here are the xG’s per shot zone

This we’re better defensively is a complete myth.
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Myth that the likes of Messi in the team believe and a myth backed up by goals conceded.

From what I can see there the expected goals against is less for 4-4-2.

While expected goals for is not far off twice as much.

Is that correct?

Also in terms of La Liga Barca have the lowest expected goals against per game which points to tougher chances despite slightly more shots?

Lowest expected goals of any team in La Liga, EPL and Bundesliga as well.
 
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ASordidGod

New member
Gotta be honest, I prefer 433 too. We're doing well so no real complaints, but defensively although we're more solid than under Enrique, we're nowhere near as good as the stats suggest in my opinion. We give up clear chances consistently, and Ter Stegen plus poor finishing saved us. Against a defensive Valencia we were solid enough, but against Alaves I think it was we could easily have been 2 down, against Sociedad more like three. I worry a good counter attacking team would rip us open to be honest. Though then again I've always been a worrier. ;)
 
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Barcaman

Barcaman

Administrator
Staff member
Joan

Joan

Well-known member
MessiCam said:
Playing with 3 central midfielders is better than 2. It always has been. There is a reason why teams who dominate possession tend to play with it.
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What's the difference between Iniesta's positioning in 442 and 433 so you conclude he's playing that a different role?

Here are the season heatmaps for 2017/18 (442, mostly) and 2015/16 and 2016/17 (433, mostly):
2017/18.:
Iniesta 18.jpg
2016/17.:
Iniesta 17.jpg
2015/16.:
Iniesta 16.jpg

These are very similar - considering his age and everything. You can't expect him to play around the circle. His role hasn't changed much, fact.
I wouldn't say there's a central midfielder less in 442. There is about the same of them, if not more when the RM is occupied with the midfield. That's what I was trying to prove. :)
 
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M

MessiCam

Guest
Joan Laporta said:
What's the difference between Iniesta's positioning in 442 and 433 so you conclude he's playing that a different role?

Here are the season heatmaps for 2017/18 (442, mostly) and 2015/16 and 2016/17 (433, mostly):
2017/18.:
View attachment 7661
2016/17.:
View attachment 7662
2015/16.:
View attachment 7663

These are very similar - considering his age and everything. You can't expect him to play around the circle. His role hasn't changed much, fact.
I wouldn't say there's a central midfielder less in 442. There is about the same of them, if not more when the RM is occupied with the midfield. That's what I was trying to prove. :)
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Thanks for this... But for a player as involved in just about everything as Iniesta is its best to have a look at average position. It becomes very evident that Iniesta play quite a bit wider in the 4-4-2.

Look at his positioning here. He is playing a lot closer to the centre circle. As he should be.
4C59B4AE-8917-4623-9A5E-CAEB6C4D5E16.jpg

5D31B4CA-DC83-48C2-9A34-258216F48886.jpg

6BB2CE0D-8E39-48E1-88A6-DA20483CFBD1.jpg

EA3BAA56-296E-4506-93A1-8C9FB76D8C31.jpg

Now look at his positioning in a 4-4-2.
BFFA91A9-4E25-4899-8069-E9F976A9C9EA.jpg

4BA2CB7D-A48C-4CDB-9945-3C0DA1D2026B.jpg

This is seen in basically all the games but truth be told I don’t like his positioning in the 4-3-3 either because he is having to do the same thing for Suarez as Rakitic did for RW Messi. It works better now because Iniesta can play on the wing but you’d ant him more centrally.

I still think that Messi and Suarez can’t coexist if you want a balanced squad.
 
vlad

vlad

New member
Barca's problem to adapt under pep probably was the reason why they didnt defend CL title, lost both times against counter attacking teams
 
vlad

vlad

New member
Lelouch vi Britannia said:
Also ref vs Inter and just plain bad luck vs Chelsea.
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But lets forget amount of luck barca had 2009 vs chelsea.

Also 2012, chelsea played with player less, managed to score a goal and not concede with 10 players vs all mighty barca, that was a really big flop.


At the end, we should be "happy" with 2 cl titels with pep, but then that was best teams of all time which could do much more
 
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