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Thread: 11 - Ousmane Dembélé

  1. #16471
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    What is more reasonable to be true?

    1. Dembele, Coutinho, Suarez and Malcom are all shit despite that they showed world class qualities 2 summers ago

    Or

    2. Velvarde, their manager, is shit

  2. #16472
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    Quote Originally Posted by kattanib View Post
    What is more reasonable to be true?

    1. Dembele, Coutinho, Suarez and Malcom are all shit despite that they showed world class qualities 2 summers ago

    Or

    2. Velvarde, their manager, is shit
    I repeat what I already said on the Malcom page.

    Valverde has done 2 years of work without much progress, always the same defects, always the same elements.
    For example, he places Coutinho on the wing that is not his best position and does no work of training for a position more appropriate to his profile, the attacking midfielder.
    He refuses to dislodge Rakitic who is the real incarnation of Valverdism, he is an excellent player, but he does not ensure the stability and the solidity of the collective of Barcelona.
    He is the image of the Valverdism system.
    when it comes to creating an offensive action, it fails because of its technical limitations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kattanib View Post
    What is more reasonable to be true?

    1. Dembele, Coutinho, Suarez and Malcom are all shit despite that they showed world class qualities 2 summers ago

    Or

    2. Velvarde, their manager, is shit
    Or:

    3. Both

  4. #16474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxim4 View Post
    Valverde has done 2 years of work without much progress, always the same defects, always the same elements.
    Yes, for sure this is the case, but even more importantly, he did such a fundamental damage to the typical Barca style, it is so deep and almost irreversible that can the damage can hardly be repaired in two years, even if a new manager comes sooner or later.
    The longer Valverde stays, the fainter the hopes become to see a real Barca anytime soon...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Or: 3. Both
    Obviously Suarez's case and decline cannot be compared to either Dembele or Malcom. But Coutinho is a good example.

    Nevertheless what is more logical or probable?
    1. That these players were able to perform on a very high level elsewhere, they seem to only have different problems under EV?
    2. These players 'forgot how to play' in Barcelona, so despite the strongest efforts of the star-coach, every personal fiasco is theirs only and they can only blame themselves?

    Which one?
    I see, 'both' once again... C'mon...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Potroh View Post
    Obviously Suarez's case and decline cannot be compared to either Dembele or Malcom. But Coutinho is a good example.

    Nevertheless what is more logical or probable?
    1. That these players were able to perform on a very high level elsewhere, they seem to only have different problems under EV?
    2. These players 'forgot how to play' in Barcelona, so despite the strongest efforts of the star-coach, every personal fiasco is theirs only and they can only blame themselves?

    Which one?
    I see, 'both' once again... C'mon...
    1. Dembele performed in a weak French league.
    You can't conclude anything from that.
    At Dortmund, a league is weaker than La Liga, his team played counters and his team didn't have Messi and key players.
    A similar story how Alexis was awesome at Udinese and Chile but bad at Barca.
    Also, in a French Nt, Dembele was never good.
    He is on the bench and when he plays, he is usually lost.

    So, his good seasons: Dortmund
    Average: Barca and French NT

    2. Suarez declined due to age and his motivation is lower, there is nothing to discuss here.

    3. Malcom, he was good only in a French midtable team.
    Plus, his team was built around him.
    For example, Halilovic looked awesome in Croatia against weak opponents and when a team is built around his strengths.
    Pjaca from Croatia looked like a future Real/Barca player while in Croatia.
    When he moved to Juve, that step was too huge for him.

    So, when a player plays in a weaker league like Malcom, Halilovic, Pjaca or Joao Felix, you can't predict whether they look good because:
    1) they are true gems
    2) or because their opponents are horrible
    The only way to find out how will they perform in a tougher league is to: actually test them in a tougher league.
    This is why Barca is often a too big step for these players and teams like Roma, Dortmund, Betis is a way better starting place for them.

    4. Coutinho, guys who watched him every week swear that he was hot and cold even there, with occassional golazos.
    In a Brasilian Nt, no significant success either with him as a leader, right?

    My opinion is still that this is the most overrated team ever.

    I posted numbers a few days ago.
    70% of signings fail at Barca.
    Under mighty Pep, Zlatan, Afellay, Chyngry, Caceres, Alexis, Fabregas, Hleb all failed.
    How do you explain that?
    Are those players bad?
    Or Pep is a bad coach?

    Or, the right answer:
    Some were not good enough.
    Some were bad fits.
    Some weren't mentally ready for the highest level.
    Some were injury prone.

    Has any of those players improved under Pep?
    So, when players stagnate or fail under Pep (signings and La Masia playes like Bojan), then players were bad and wrong fits.
    When under EV new players stagnate and La Masia kids don't develop=then all these players are world beaters and a bad EV has ruined 10 careers in 2 seasons.
    That doesn't make too much sense.

    So, again: EV is not good.
    But majority of our players are comically overrated by our fans.
    Dembele generational talent.
    Malcom a very good player.
    And overweight, tired and slow sideway passer Arthur, one of the best midfielders in the world. Lol.
    Last edited by BBZ8800; 23rd May 2019 at 11:23 PM.

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    Barça 2019/2020 can become a war machine, a European monster, but it would be a shame to leave a man behind the wheel of a BUGATTI without a driver's license.
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  8. #16478
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    1. Dembele performed in a weak French league.
    You can't conclude anything from that.
    At Dortmund, a league is weaker than La Liga, his team played counters and his team didn't have Messi and key players.
    A similar story how Alexis was awesome at Udinese and Chile but bad at Barca.
    Also, in a French Nt, Dembele was never good.
    He is on the bench and when he plays, he is usually lost.

    So, his good seasons: Dortmund
    Average: Barca and French NT

    2. Suarez declined due to age and his motivation is lower, there is nothing to discuss here.

    3. Malcom, he was good only in a French midtable team.
    Plus, his team was built around him.
    For example, Halilovic looked awesome in Croatia against weak opponents and when a team is built around his strengths.
    Pjaca from Croatia looked like a future Real/Barca player while in Croatia.
    When he moved to Juve, that step was too huge for him.

    So, when a player plays in a weaker league like Malcom, Halilovic, Pjaca or Joao Felix, you can't predict whether they look good because:
    1) they are true gems
    2) or because their opponents are horrible
    The only way to find out how will they perform in a tougher league is to: actually test them in a tougher league.
    This is why Barca is often a too big step for these players and teams like Roma, Dortmund, Betis is a way better starting place for them.

    4. Coutinho, guys who watched him every week swear that he was hot and cold even there, with occassional golazos.
    In a Brasilian Nt, no significant success either with him as a leader, right?

    My opinion is still that this is the most overrated team ever.

    I posted numbers a few days ago.
    70% of signings fail at Barca.
    Under mighty Pep, Zlatan, Afellay, Chyngry, Caceres, Alexis, Fabregas, Hleb all failed.
    How do you explain that?
    Are those players bad?
    Or Pep is a bad coach?

    Or, the right answer:
    Some were not good enough.
    Some were bad fits.
    Some weren't mentally ready for the highest level.
    Some were injury prone.

    Has any of those players improved under Pep?
    So, when players stagnate or fail under Pep (signings and La Masia playes like Bojan), then players were bad and wrong fits.
    When under EV new players stagnate and La Masia kids don't develop=then all these players are world beaters and a bad EV has ruined 10 careers in 2 seasons.
    That doesn't make too much sense.

    So, again: EV is not good.
    But majority of our players are comically overrated by our fans.
    Dembele generational talent.
    Malcom a very good player.
    And overweight, tired and slow sideway passer Arthur, one of the best midfielders in the world. Lol.
    No player has failed here except for Ernesto as a player and coach.



    Valverde is an antipode of Guardiola. His general idea of ​​the game is to resist, be strong, defend well and pray for an offensive feat of winning the match. This largely explains the lack of verticality 0-0 or 1-1 (1 0) and the offensive dependence of Messi.
    It is not at all pragmatic, it is a machine that already has its plan in mind and its changes already planned in advance.
    Barça, instead of playing, is trying to protect themselves more from their opponents' games and this has been going on for too long this season.
    The team has the best players to play good matches, it turned out in some matches that Valverde had opted for an offensive game and the concern is that it does not suit him, he still prefers his style during the following matches.
    The style of play is not only Valverde's only flaw, he is also a limited person, without character, without audacity and unable to react to an unforeseen situation such as the domination of his opponent.

  9. #16479
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Dembele performed in a weak French league.
    At Dortmund, a league is weaker than La Liga, his team played counters and his team didn't have Messi and key players.
    As usually, you tend to mix up factors not truly belonging to each other.

    You compare leagues, as if they were different movies, where the very same actor can be bad if playing in a bad movie, but can be brilliant if the movie is great in itself.
    It's not as simple as that.

    How many times have you heard the bullshit about Messi, when his enemies (mostly grudging morons) say that he is "just" the greatest on the Barca and LaLiga level, that's why he is 'nothing' on the international podium...
    Many also say that Messi would be a piece of garbage in the Premiere League. Are they right?
    Just partially because for sure his body would be in danger in a mincing-machine like that...

    These poor souls go by the same logic as you presented now.
    In the eyes of these blind and result-oriented idiots, CR7 is a much better player, because he at least won a European cup with his NT.
    All right but that EC was won by ONE single actual win on the Portugal side and though Messi played a WC final, but lost it, so in their eyes an EC trophy is better than a WC finalist position.
    It's bad logic...

    There ARE indeed weaker and stronger domestic leagues but U cannot DIRECTLY compare them when it comes to individual talents or players.
    X actor plays a hero in one movie and in another movie he is the villain.
    He's a great actor, so can play both roles outstandingly.
    But there's a bad movie, where he plays the hero well, but still the movie remains to be bad, but when he gets the role of the villain, the bad movie suddenly flourishes, just because of his acting, or vice versa.

    You cannot ever pull out a footballer from the CONTEXT of the TEAM he plays in, and it always the team and not the given league.
    Barca scored 8,9 goals in 2015-16 against the weaker teams in LaLiga, but conceded 4 goals in Paris, where according to the theory, it wouldn't have been possible.

    Tottenham got beaten by Barca twice this season, now they are finalists.
    If for some lucky reason Tottenham wins the CL, then does it mean that Barca won it, because they have beaten the champions twice?
    This is the fraud logic when comparing tournaments or leagues.

    You may try to shit on Coutinho's time at Liverpool, but you also know it very well that it's the easiest, cheapest to be clever, wise or observant AFTER he became a flop elsewhere. It's the afterclap of the weak... It's bad reasoning.

    Does he play in the same position? Does he play with others who understand him? Does he understand the STRATEGY of the team as well as he did elsewhere? Is he coached by an individual whom he almost blindly trusts? These are the INITIAL right questions.

    Does Dembele play in a team that partly accommodates its strategy according to his pace? Does Dembele play in a team where both players and the coach are very helpful towards him? His a project under development, so obviously he need helping hands, but all he gets is part-time benches and the Suarez's overman-shouts.

    There comes the role of the coach.
    Some players match with a coach, others do not.
    Some players could develop and blossom under a given coach, while others do not.

    Coutinho is the shadow of himself at Barca. Dembele is late for some training sessions.
    The former plays out of his position, the latter out of his style. If you are late, it means the coach has no elevating effect on you. If you don't play at your usual position, the coach has to find an even better one for you.
    But the coach cannot find a better position, because ALL POSITIONS are already occupied by tenants, who are club-legends or pseudo-legends in their minds.
    If the coach doesn't find the perfect role for the player, he will always suffer or the best he will be average.

    Or Pep is a bad coach?
    This is your most questionable question. The question is wrong in itself!
    Because Pep is an exceptional coach, is he the greatest for each and every player???
    Definitely NOT, some players will be happy, will be developing, will be flourishing under his tutelage but other will HATE him and will be unable to perform according to their original talents!

    What is Valverde's strategy compared to the last Enrique team?
    Easy to answer. Nothing!
    He even inherited Roberto as RB and he remained there. The only change is that Neymar is not there, so Alba can run on the left sometimes and believe that he is 'almost' a Neymar.

    I told you several times already that a strategically thinking coach does not simply fill the positions by the available players, rather he FINDS the suitable positions for each and every player's own qualities, and when that is done, he WORKS OUT a STRATEGY for the given best layout. The ORDER cannot be reverted.

    Did EV do that? No way. He has no strategy, just a single Messi and occasional Suarez who can win games for him and that's all.

    So the main question: can a talented but young, developing player blossom or develop under this non-existing system, where only the positions are given away - like in a traditional synagogue where seats are given for a lifetime for a fix amount?

  10. #16480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxim4 View Post
    Barça 2019/2020 can become a war machine, a European monster, but it would be a shame to leave a man behind the wheel of a BUGATTI without a driver's license.
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    If Valverde does this, playing De Jong on the right and Arthur on the left, he will once again prove his incompetence.
    Fear of the squat
    Fear of the squat
    I have a constant fear
    Valverde's here next year




    Valverde after Copa defeat: "I'm fine.. but when you lose you are always worse than when you win."

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    Ousmane Dembele Age. (22). 8 Goals in 29 league games. 2018-2019 season.

    Raheem Sterling Age. (22). 7 goals in 33 league games. 2016-2017 season.

    Leroy Sane Age. (22). 10 goals in 32 league games. 2016-2017.

    Mo Salah Age (22). 6 goals in 16 games. 2015 Loan.

    Sadio mane Age. (22). 10 goals in 24 games. 2014-2015

    Marco Asensio Age. (22). 6 goals in 33 games 2017-2018

    James Rodriguez Age. (23) 13 goals in 29 games 2014-2015
    Last edited by jairzinho; 24th May 2019 at 03:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FCBfan22 View Post
    If Valverde does this, playing De Jong on the right and Arthur on the left, he will once again prove his incompetence.
    not completely left and right, because the presence of Griezmann and Semedo will force both players to hold the ball in the center of the field slightly to the left and right to guarantee possession and offense.

  13. #16483
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxim4 View Post
    not completely left and right, because the presence of Griezmann and Semedo will force both players to hold the ball in the center of the field slightly to the left and right to guarantee possession and offense.
    The thing is that Arthur and De Jong have preferred positions and playing them both out of position is stupid and exactly what Valverde would do.

    De Jong played his whole career on the left and Arthur played on the right most of the time before he joined Barca.
    Fear of the squat
    Fear of the squat
    I have a constant fear
    Valverde's here next year




    Valverde after Copa defeat: "I'm fine.. but when you lose you are always worse than when you win."

  14. #16484
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    Quote Originally Posted by jairzinho View Post
    Ousmane Dembele Age. (22). 8 Goals in 29 league games. 2018-2019 season.

    Raheem Sterling Age. (22). 7 goals in 33 league games. 2016-2017 season.

    Leroy Sane Age. (22). 10 goals in 32 league games. 2016-2017.

    Mo Salah Age (22). 6 goals in 16 games. 2015 Loan.

    Sadio mane Age. (22). 10 goals in 24 games. 2014-2015

    Marco Asensio Age. (22). 6 goals in 33 games 2017-2018

    James Rodriguez Age. (23) 13 goals in 29 games 2014-2015
    Edit:

    Eden Hazard at 21 years. 2012-2013 season. 9 league goals in 34 games.
    Eden Hazard at 22 years. 2013-2014 season 14 lelague goals in 35 games.

    * Neymar Jr at 22, 2013-2014 season. 9 goals in 26 games (Turned 22 on February 2014)
    * Neymar Jr at 23, 2014-2015 season, 22 goals in 34 league games (Turned 23 on February 2015)

    So i decided to look up the scoring stats of a 22 year old Ousmane Dembele. (Turned 22, 15 days ago)
    A player who is apparently 'Average' according to some here.

    Then compare his goal stats with Neymar and other attackers/wingers around the same age/experience bracket.
    What most of these guys have in common is they don't have an impressive scoring record around the 19-23 bracket.

    You could probably describe that period as a developing phase for some of these guys before they start settling.
    So with wingers, the goal scoring to appearances ratio among that age group is collectively low based on the statistics

    For example a 21 year old Sterling scored 6 goals in 31 league games in 2015-2016
    The same trend continues with other wingers.

    Neymar would be the exception with his breakout season coming in his second year at FCB.
    But you can form your own analysis. This is just how i see it.
    Last edited by jairzinho; 24th May 2019 at 12:30 PM.

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    and all those guys were worse finishers than dembele at their ages. especially raheem who's turned it around since he got pep. that rocket he scored against chelsea last season shows his potential as far as goal scoring is concerned
    Quote Originally Posted by ThwiX View Post
    Liverpool got a man inside it looks like. Never want to see this piece of shit wear our shirt again.
    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    He will be our 2nd best player by miles, behind Messi.

    Why doubting Coutinho?
    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Neymar was a strange fit.
    Cou will play as if he was born and developed here.

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