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Thread: 11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

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    He'll become crucial for us after getting a full pre season with the squad. Injuries will disappear and consistency will improve.

    Let's just hope Griezmann isn't supposed to replace him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andresito View Post
    He'll become crucial for us
    You guys are so romantic and hilarious.
    Name one Barca's attacker in the last 20-30 years here who became crucial only due to his technical skills and who had zero tactical skills and zero IQ.

    I'll help you: none.
    So, Dembele very likely won't be the first guy ever to made it with those skills.

    He will offer some goals, dribbles, flashes of brilliance.
    But overall his IQ, tactical knowledge (and now even injuries) will prevent him to ever become more than a very good, talented player.

    An old, injury prone, party animal, backwards-showboat-dribbler Neymar isn't a solution.
    But neither is Dembele.

    Even Griezmann has higher chances to became Barca's leader and a key player than these two guys.

  3. #16683
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    You guys are so romantic and hilarious.
    Name one Barca's attacker in the last 20-30 years here who became crucial only due to his technical skills and who had zero tactical skills and zero IQ.

    I'll help you: none.
    So, Dembele very likely won't be the first guy ever to made it with those skills.

    He will offer some goals, dribbles, flashes of brilliance.
    But overall his IQ, tactical knowledge (and now even injuries) will prevent him to ever become more than a very good, talented player.

    An old, injury prone, party animal, backwards-showboat-dribbler Neymar isn't a solution.
    But neither is Dembele.

    Even Griezmann has higher chances to became Barca's leader and a key player than these two guys.
    Of course it's wishful thinking and romanticizing. But one can always be optimistic, the opposite is quite boring to be honest.

    A player's career doesn't have to be 100% logical, linear and according to early stats.

    We have Dembélé at our disposal now, no need to be negative before he even gets a chance to play a full season under the right circumstances.

  4. #16684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andresito View Post
    Of course it's wishful thinking and romanticizing. But one can always be optimistic, the opposite is quite boring to be honest.

    A player's career doesn't have to be 100% logical, linear and according to early stats.

    We have Dembélé at our disposal now, no need to be negative before he even gets a chance to play a full season under the right circumstances.
    You can't "cure" low IQ.
    Regarding tactics, his weird movement, bad positioning, weird shooting, those things could be improved to some extent=with age, with a right attitude, with good coaches and with IQ.

    Look, everything is possible in life and football, but...
    People are putting too much weight on player's technical talent.
    Fine, if a player doesn't have talent, he won't make it. (There will be 1 guy out of 100 who will make it with a hard work).
    But we can agree that a talent is a no1 factor if you want to be a attacker or a midfielder in top clubs.
    Dembele has a lot of talent.

    But then, there are 10s of additional factors which will turn you into a good, very good, Barca's key player or world class (Ballon D Or candidate) level of players.
    To randomly name some of those factors:
    1. you need to be somewhat brave and cocky if you want to be a killer goalscorer/attacker. In general, schoolboy/shy/humble guys rarely make it as best sportsmen or the biggest rockstars in the world.
    For that level, you just can't be an "average good, nice human".
    You need some kind of a mixture of a leader personality, very brave personality, huge mental strength, not being too emotive or a snowflake, you need to be very motivated.
    And of course, very talented.

    Let's look at the examples of our attacking leaders in the last 20-30 years:
    R9:
    -- talent: with Messi, probably the most talented footballer in a history
    -- personality: average. Not extremely cocky, but far from being shy, scared, nice schoolboy.
    -- IQ: very good
    -- physique: extremely good. Except injuries, which have ruined his career
    So, R9 didn't have any "bugs":
    Talent: check
    IQ: check
    Brave/leader/cocky personality: check
    Physique: check

    Rivaldo:
    Talent: check
    IQ: very intelligent player
    Physique: average
    Personality: a leader, professional. Cocky. But somewhat scared in some moments (compared to let's say Ronaldinho) and loved to fake fouls and injuries.
    No huge flaws. Even though in terms of leadership ability and being mentally strong, he was "only" average in that area.

    Kluivert:
    Talent: check
    IQ: very good
    Physique: very good
    Personality: cocky, leader, brave, motivated
    His main flaw: he was missing sitters and he was hot and cold. On some days, he was able to score 5 goals. On other days, he was missing sitters left and right.
    Imo, during Rivaldo-Kluivert, we missed a true leader alongside those two, for us to win CLs.
    Figo was a true leader and mentally strong person and was a key man before he left. But... then he left and our team lacked something... until Ronaldinho.

    Saviola:
    Talent: very good
    Physique: very bad
    IQ: ok
    Personality: meh. Not a leader, not brave. Too nice, humble, shy kid.
    He had too many deadly flaws to turn into a world class footballer (weak physique and too shy personality)

    Ronaldino:
    Talent: an alien
    IQ: very, very good
    Physique: very, very good
    Personality: a leader, brave, cocky, confident, never hides, never sulks. In this area, one of the best leaders in terms of quality mixed with personality which we ever had.
    He turned into an absolute superstar since he had all requirements on a very high level.

    Etoo:
    Talent: very good
    IQ: good
    Physique: very, very good
    Personality: very, very brave, cocky, a leader. Never sulks. Better than Messi in that aspect. Willing to fight and argue with everyone, when needed. Always ready to die on a field and take responsibility in big moments.
    His only flaw: Finishing, missing too many sitters.

    Alexis:
    Talent: good
    IQ: NO IQ
    Physique: good
    Personality: not a leader for Barca's level. He was a leader for smaller teams like Arsenal and Chile. At Barca, he was too impressed with Messi and older guys and was never able to impose himself.
    Which led to confidence issues, not being decisive in key moments, passing the ball instead of shooting, bad decisions, tripping over the ball etc

    Neymar:
    Talent: very good
    IQ: questionable. He is not dumb, but he is not willing to listen and work on his flaws (like releasing the ball earlier, play faster, play a one touch football etc)
    Physique: fast, but overal weak and easy to fall down. Also, zero aerial threat.
    Personality: Cocky, brave. But also an idiot, fighting with everyone and party animal.

    Now, there is also Messi.
    Awesome talent. But not a leader personality.
    Some will get offended, but he is also one of the reasons why we are losing heavily in big away matches.
    He often sulks, disappears and goes MIA in big matches or when everything is not perfect.
    If Messi had Ronaldinho's bravery or CR7's personality, we would have probably won 6-7-8 CLs during his career.

    Anyway, if you get my point, for being a key player at Barca, you need way more than talent.
    Of course, if you don't have talent, you will never make it here.
    But an insane talent alone will never be enough, unless if you have Messi's skills.
    For all others, "human" attackers, they have made it here ONLY if they had more or less ALL needed skills like: talent, physique, IQ and personality.

    Now, let's go back to Dembele:
    Talent: check
    Physique: very good. But he is already injured all the time.
    IQ: No IQ
    Personality: too shy guy (imo) to make it Barca and under this enormous pressure from papers, social media, and Millions of fans.
    Since he is shy, he needs more time to relax, to gain confidence back. After a few mistakes, his confidence is going down, and he is more easily impressed by senior players and will unconsciously always pass to them instead of shooting and saying: fuck you, I will score that, I can do it.

    So, imo, out of these 4 categories, Dembele already has insane flaws in: IQ and personality.
    Plus, he is tactically bad (positioning, movement), his finishing is meh.
    Plus, in a category of physique: he is already injured all the time and he needs Months to get back into a form and rhythm in terms of physique, not to mention how much time he will need to regain his confidence after injuries or bad form due to his shy and somewhat submissive personality.

    Imo, he could turn into a playable player for Barca:
    1. only if he will stay injury free
    2. if he will be 120% professional and motivated
    3. if he will work on his positioning, movement, chemistry with teammates and shooting
    4. if Barca will have at least 2 leaders in a team like Messi, Griezmann and similar, so Dembele will be relaxed and a pressure won't be on him

    Yet, some people here probably believe that we will be able to build a team around Dembele after Messi's retirement, which is imo laughable.
    A player of his personality will never be a leader of any big team like Barca, Real, Bayern.
    He can play here only as a supportive player. Or he can be a key player at 2nd and 3rd tier teams like Dortmund, Arsenal, Ac Milan, Roma and similar.

    So, feel free to dream.
    But there needs to be a dose of reality.
    His talent alone doesn't mean too much for Barca's level of a club, which is a level of TOP 2-3 clubs in the world.
    You need to have EVERYTHING on this level (in terms of attackers and midfielders).

    In terms of bravery, being a leader, cocky, Ronaldinho was 22 years old (As Dembele) at a WC 2002.
    Can you see this look in Dembele's eyes, or can you expect that bravery and leadership from Dembele?
    I can't. He is miiiiiiiiles behind top players/leaders in that aspect:


    * Waiting for stupid replies like: but, but, but during Pep we had schoolboys...
    And I will just kill myself if someone will post that. Please, don't do it guys
    Last edited by BBZ8800; 28th June 2019 at 01:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Imo, he could turn into a playable player for Barca:
    1. only if he will stay injury free
    2. if he will be 120% professional and motivated
    3. if he will work on his positioning, movement, chemistry with teammates and shooting
    4. if Barca will have at least 2 leaders in a team like Messi, Griezmann and similar, so Dembele will be relaxed and a pressure won't be on him
    :
    This is exactly why I wrote my first post lol, those things aren't impossible to happen, quite the opposite imo.

    He has already proved he can play well for us. Of course he needs to improve, all young players do.
    But most importantly he's been lacking consistency. Can't remember him dropping form by playing, it's when he gets injured he needs to start all over to regain his form.

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    Pretty good post by @BBZ8800. But shy guys with soft personalities can also make it. They just need more work and more coaching, and sometimes the elite clubs don't have neither the patience, nor the right men in charge to really guide these players and help them to develop properly.

    Let's not say some personality and character types can't achieve the very top no matter what. It's just harder, and I fully agree with that. Specific circumstances matter. See De Bruyne and Salah at Chelsea vs City and Liverpool.
    Last edited by serghei; 28th June 2019 at 02:23 PM.

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    But shy guys with soft personalities can also make it.
    Like Messi the goat...

    BBZ has a point, but you don t need or want 11 loud mouth alphas in Barca. That would be destructive.

    What you need is the right balance. Introverts are often different people on the field and i think this goes for Dembele 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Judoman View Post
    Like Messi the goat...

    BBZ has a point, but you don t need or want 11 loud mouth alphas in Barca. That would be destructive.

    What you need is the right balance. Introverts are often different people on the field and i think this goes for Dembele 2.
    He has a point in that world class attacking stars usually have a bold personality. To be a true leader you kind of have to see yourself as superior to others. That kind of arrogance is an asset when it is backed with talent and good work ethic. But there are exceptions all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Y

    Now, there is also Messi.
    Awesome talent. But not a leader personality.
    Some will get offended, but he is also one of the reasons why we are losing heavily in big away matches.
    He often sulks, disappears and goes MIA in big matches or when everything is not perfect.
    If Messi had Ronaldinho's bravery or CR7's personality, we would have probably won 6-7-8 CLs during his career.
    I am very happy that Messi doesn't have the personality of CR.
    If personality means to play for himself, getting angry at teammates for missing a pass, never thank for an assist but glorifying himself as if he'd done it all by himself, getting angry because he didn't win an individual award but his teammate (e.g. Modric or Bernardo Silva) and so on.... no thank you, and it's not even a leader personality.
    If you mean personality his desire to always improve, his maniacality in physical and mental preparation, then I agree.

    I agree that Messi doesn't have a leader personality, and he shouldn't be captain in NT (no problem, Pele has never been a NT captain either) and Barca.
    “I would love to have played at this club. I am envious of how well Guardiola's men can play. They are like a group of kids who play football in the street without rules. That is the best football, the most authentic, unfettered by tactics or schemes. Guardiola’s philosophy is helping to change the mindset of many tacticians and that is priceless.” Marco Van Basten

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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    He has a point in that world class attacking stars usually have a bold personality. To be a true leader you kind of have to see yourself as superior to others. That kind of arrogance is an asset when it is backed with talent and good work ethic. But there are exceptions all the time.
    Being an introvert doesn t mean one is not bold or arrogant. You re mixing different aspect of psychology.

    And you certainly don t have to be a leader to be an awesome attacker. Also, the leader is not someone who see himself as superior. Arrogance and leadership are 2 different things.

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    Didn't read the whole post, but imo Dembele is not a shy school boy if that was one of it's points.

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    He's in Egypt watching Morocco vs Ivory Coast right now.

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    @BBZ8800
    I don't think from the evidence we have we are in a position to say that Dembele has 'low' or no tactical IQ..
    Unless you can elaborate where you base your conclusion, it looks kind of arbitrary..
    Xavi's Cups

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Neymar:
    Talent: very good
    IQ: questionable. He is not dumb, but he is not willing to listen and work on his flaws (like releasing the ball earlier, play faster, play a one touch football etc)
    Physique: fast, but overal weak and easy to fall down. Also, zero aerial threat.
    Personality: Cocky, brave. But also an idiot, fighting with everyone and party animal.
    Just another great example of how much you DO NOT understand about this game.
    This time the problem is not just your known lack of capability towards the elements of the game, but also how you try to handle the evident differences between personalities of players.

    I quoted your Neymar description, because it's hilarious.
    - No idea what you try to depict as "IQ", perhaps nothing according to the psychologically measurable standards. Probably it's just a fudge-factor that can be used to strengthen your agendas.
    - Neymar is NOT easy to fall, actually both Messi and Suarez are worse in this regard. The difference is that no player in Europe is LESS protected by referees than Neymar is, due to his fame and provocative nature. At the same time he has been the most kicked player ever, due to his dribbling abilities.
    - Neymar is good in the air (unlike Messi is) but his special talents are of course different.
    - With the "party animal" adjective, you try to enter his personal sphere, that has nothing to do with the rest you mention.
    - Neymar is indeed brave, it's not a good status when aggressive - and half as talented as he is - opponents try to cause him awful injuries.
    - "one touch", "earlier release" and the like show clearly how much you are incapable to understand the special features of a player (and also how few PSG games you have seen recently).

    Your Dembele assessment is just as sadly stupid as the Neymar one.
    Probably you would be a good accountant for a 3rd grade club, but you would be HORRIBLE as a coach, as you have been just over-simplifying any human characteristics that an outstanding footballer has.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Imo, he could turn into a playable player for Barca:
    1. only if he will stay injury free
    2. if he will be 120% professional and motivated
    3. if he will work on his positioning, movement, chemistry with teammates and shooting
    4. if Barca will have at least 2 leaders in a team like Messi, Griezmann and similar, so Dembele will be relaxed and a pressure won't be on him
    The first three are completely achievable if he is lucky with injuries, and I don't agree that the fourth one is a must. Contrary to what you're saying, Dembele has actually proven that he can be decisive in very important moments numerous times already, he is a big game player.

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