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Thread: 11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

  1. #7501
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    The problem with him being a new guy in the squad is that he doesn't understand the positioning of his teammates well enough and tends to occupy same areas Messi does.
    He'll need time to embed himself into the team.
    I have some pictures:
    Dembele CL 2016/17.:
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    Lionel Messi CL 2017/18.:
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    It's obvious. I think it's not the right time this season to try to make it work. Messi needs as much rest as possible and Dembele for Messi is the perfect sub for both of them, imo.

  2. #7502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joan Laporta View Post
    The problem with him being a new guy in the squad is that he doesn't understand the positioning of his teammates well enough and tends to occupy same areas Messi does.
    He'll need time to embed himself into the team.
    I have some pictures:
    Dembele CL 2016/17.:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	OD lp 16-17.jpg 
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Size:	12.2 KB 
ID:	7687
    Lionel Messi CL 2017/18.:
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Name:	LM lp 17-18.jpg 
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ID:	7688
    It's obvious. I think it's not the right time this season to try to make it work. Messi needs as much rest as possible and Dembele for Messi is the sub to make, imo.
    Actually, I think Coutinho was doing this more than Dembele in the matches he played (except for the Eibar one).

  3. #7503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joan Laporta View Post
    The problem with him being a new guy in the squad is that he doesn't understand the positioning of his teammates well enough and tends to occupy same areas Messi does.
    He'll need time to embed himself into the team.
    I have some pictures:
    Dembele CL 2016/17.:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	OD lp 16-17.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	12.2 KB 
ID:	7687
    Lionel Messi CL 2017/18.:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LM lp 17-18.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	11.4 KB 
ID:	7688
    It's obvious. I think it's not the right time this season to try to make it work. Messi needs as much rest as possible and Dembele for Messi is the perfect sub for both of them, imo.
    Dembele played at RW, CAM and LW for BVB last season, that's why their heat maps might be similar.


  4. #7504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joan Laporta View Post
    The problem with him being a new guy in the squad is that he doesn't understand the positioning of his teammates well enough and tends to occupy same areas Messi does.
    He'll need time to embed himself into the team.
    I have some pictures:
    Dembele CL 2016/17.:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	OD lp 16-17.jpg 
Views:	1 
Size:	12.2 KB 
ID:	7687
    Lionel Messi CL 2017/18.:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LM lp 17-18.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	11.4 KB 
ID:	7688
    It's obvious. I think it's not the right time this season to try to make it work. Messi needs as much rest as possible and Dembele for Messi is the perfect sub for both of them, imo.
    In the few matches Dembele has played for us he has looked very good in terms of positional discipline. He has always stuck to the right flank and hasn't really clashed with Messi at all. As another poster said, Coutinho is the one who has this problem.

  5. #7505
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    Quote Originally Posted by FCBfan22 View Post
    Actually, I think Coutinho was doing this more than Dembele in the matches he played (except for the Eibar one).
    I mean, yes, and the heatmaps would show it but I think that's due to him being played on the right very often.

    They occupy similar areas but he's (in normal circumstances) more oriented to the left what I find very good.

    When we signed him, I thought he'd play as a LM switching to a LW when in attacking mode.
    Sth like:
    ---- Suarez ----
    Cou ---- Messi
    With the duo being the creative force.

    Here are his heatmaps at Lpool:
    CL 2017-18.:
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    PL 2017-18.:
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    I think it'll come good.

  6. #7506
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joan Laporta View Post
    I mean, yes, and the heatmaps would show it but I think that's due to him being played on the right very often.

    They occupy similar areas but he's (in normal circumstances) more oriented to the left what I find very good.

    When we signed him, I thought he'd play as a LM switching to a LW when in attacking mode.
    Sth like:
    ---- Suarez ----
    Cou ---- Messi
    With the duo being the creative force.

    Here are his heatmaps at Lpool:
    CL 2017-18.:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FC lp 2017-18.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	10.5 KB 
ID:	7689
    PL 2017-18.:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FC pl.jpg 
Views:	0 
Size:	11.9 KB 
ID:	7690

    I think it'll come good.
    It actually isn't because of where he is being played, but it's his drifting into the middle, which is exactly where Messi is playing this season (the free role). And when Cou was assigned to Iniesta's spot, he started doing runs into the box, which is a big no for a Barca LM/LCM. But he has shown significant improvement as a LCM/LM aginst Eibar yesterday.

  7. #7507
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonAK View Post
    Dembele played at RW, CAM and LW for BVB last season, that's why their heat maps might be similar.
    That's true but what I wanted to show is that he's not the type of a winger who'll spend the whole match near the line. He likes to cut inside, he feels comfortable there and it's no wonder he had such a great season (and a fruitful one, too) playing there.

    Not that I think it'd be impossible to play both him and Messi at the same time and do so effectively, but I don't think that time should be now.

    It'll need a lot of matches of adjusting, of understanding, or he'll do what @OD says:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ousmane Dembélé View Post
    In the few matches Dembele has played for us he has looked very good in terms of positional discipline. He has always stuck to the right flank and hasn't really clashed with Messi at all.
    and I don't think it's the best way to introduce him to the team properly.

  8. #7508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Total-Football View Post
    seems to me as a sort of football-schizophrenia, in other terms try to match a coach with a player who clearly doesn t do his tactics big service.
    Those "tactics" are needed - sometimes - but not always. The better players the coach has, the tactics are less needed, simply because in case of a Messi or Iniesta - just an example - they are capable of being more creative on the pitch (compared to any tactics or trainer) so the tactical ropes won't really help them positively.
    The MSN were great in their prime, because they played more or less free, creative and unpredictable.
    The good tactician coaches are those who are able to amalgamate a good team consisting of mediocre-good players, where the tactics are more important than individual brilliance.

    Valverde is a typical mediocre coach, actually having his very first team that has quite a few outstanding players in it, and one can easily see that how Valverde tries to dominate the team. So far the results are good, quality is less good, but it's clear that the "games" Valverde has been playing with Semedo, Dembele and partly Countinho, only serves his image being the great tactician. He is not a good tactician, he is biassed and even more stubborn.

    In the defense: he should have realized that he needs at least one Semedo type with speed, because apart from Alba all others are very slow, but he is screwing that.
    If Stegen were in a bad form like he did last year, there would be no results.
    The midfield (the weakest part last season) is more or less untouched.
    The attack is reduced to a deeply playing Messi and a more and more heavy Suarez, luckily works most of the times, but only due to Messi's genius.
    The 4-4-2 is just valid to play safe games but almost useless for a PERMANENT attacking formation for this team.

    You will see that the inevitable flops will come sooner or later, because Valverde's will have to tactically dominate will indeed dismantle the attacking tradition of this great team...
    Last edited by Potroh; 19th February 2018 at 12:12 AM.

  9. #7509
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    Quote Originally Posted by FCBfan22 View Post
    It actually isn't because of where he is being played, but it's his drifting into the middle, which is exactly where Messi is playing this season (the free role). And when Cou was assigned to Iniesta's spot, he started doing runs into the box, which is a big no for a Barca LM/LCM. But he has shown significant improvement as a LCM/LM aginst Eibar yesterday.
    He does drift in the middle, same as Messi - but at other times he tends to play on the left while Messi goes to the right.

    I don't think of it as a problem, could be turned into a bonus if used well. If Coutinho is in the middle, and is capable of doing the job, Messi doesn't need to be there at that moment.
    So he can stretch opponent's defense, or go forward and attack. Imo, it's all about the balance and timing. It'll take some adjusting, though.

    It does matter where he's played because when on the right, he's in Messi's area all the match.

  10. #7510
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    Hopefully after the summer - the next manager will get the best out Dembele , whilst playing Coutinho on the left and playing our only genuine RB , Samedo at right back ....

  11. #7511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincubus View Post
    Hopefully after the summer - the next manager will get the best out Dembele , whilst playing Coutinho on the left and playing our only genuine RB , Samedo at right back ....
    Dumb post, Valverde won't be sacked not matter how badly he does in the CL as long as he wins the league. It doesn't matter what you, I, or any other fan wants; as long as Valverde wins at least one of the CL or Liga every year he will not be sacked and that is a FACT.

    As for Dembele, next season will be the one he breaks out in. He will be a bit older and more mature at 21, have lived in Spain for a year, would know the language and his teammates a bit and would have had some time following a stricter diet with better treatment and exercise plans to help maintain fitness and avoid injury.

    Not to mention most of the trash like Gomes and Vidal will be cleared by then along with Paulinho moving to the bench, which should open up a clear spot for him. I also don't think Valverde sticks with the 4-4-2 beyond this season as it was never his original intention, but injuries and unseen circumstances forced him into playing it and it's too late to change it at this point in this campaign. With the players we have right now the 4-3-3 is the clear choice and expect to see that starting next season.

  12. #7512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ousmane Dembélé View Post
    With the players we have right now the 4-3-3 is the clear choice and expect to see that starting next season.
    Probably 433 with Messi-Suarez-Dembele and Coutinho behind them?
    Hmm...

    An interesting thing to consider, on last occasions when we successfully played 433, we had much better "defenders" in attack and in midfield.
    With Rijkaard, we had Etoo who was pressuring like a madman, then Guily who was covering quite a lot on a right side.
    Deco and Xavi defended better than current midfield combos (Coutinho).

    Under Pep, we had a crazy defender Pedro and Xavi and Iniesta behind attackers.

    When mentioning 433, as always, people are always looking at attacking factors, like player's technique, player's attacking abilities.
    But regarding other factors, players whom we currently have are miles behind our golden 433's era in other areas of football.

    Also, imagine fan's favorite lineup in 433:
    Suarez-Messi-Dembele
    Coutinho-Alena
    Busquets

    That would be really a horror show in terms of defending and counters, whenever we would lose the ball.

  13. #7513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincubus View Post
    Hopefully after the summer - the next manager will get the best out Dembele , whilst playing Coutinho on the left and playing our only genuine RB , Samedo at right back ....
    Yeah because if Valverde manages to win CDR and La Liga only reasonable thing to do would be to sack him the next day!

  14. #7514
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Probably 433 with Messi-Suarez-Dembele and Coutinho behind them?
    Hmm...

    An interesting thing to consider, on last occasions when we successfully played 433, we had much better "defenders" in attack and in midfield.
    With Rijkaard, we had Etoo who was pressuring like a madman, then Guily who was covering quite a lot on a right side.
    Deco and Xavi defended better than current midfield combos (Coutinho).

    Under Pep, we had a crazy defender Pedro and Xavi and Iniesta behind attackers.

    When mentioning 433, as always, people are always looking at attacking factors, like player's technique, player's attacking abilities.
    But regarding other factors, players whom we currently have are miles behind our golden 433's era in other areas of football.

    Also, imagine fan's favorite lineup in 433:
    Suarez-Messi-Dembele
    Coutinho-Alena
    Busquets

    That would be really a horror show in terms of defending and counters, whenever we would lose the ball.
    LOL, who in the world wants to start Alena at RM? Rakitic would be fine really and the last time we played the 4-3-3 successfully was in the 15/16 season with pretty much the exact same team, but plus Neymar.
    Last edited by Ousmane Dembélé; 19th February 2018 at 02:37 PM.

  15. #7515
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Probably 433 with Messi-Suarez-Dembele and Coutinho behind them?
    Hmm...

    An interesting thing to consider, on last occasions when we successfully played 433, we had much better "defenders" in attack and in midfield.
    With Rijkaard, we had Etoo who was pressuring like a madman, then Guily who was covering quite a lot on a right side.
    Deco and Xavi defended better than current midfield combos (Coutinho).

    Under Pep, we had a crazy defender Pedro and Xavi and Iniesta behind attackers.

    When mentioning 433, as always, people are always looking at attacking factors, like player's technique, player's attacking abilities.
    But regarding other factors, players whom we currently have are miles behind our golden 433's era in other areas of football.

    Also, imagine fan's favorite lineup in 433:
    Suarez-Messi-Dembele
    Coutinho-Alena
    Busquets

    That would be really a horror show in terms of defending and counters, whenever we would lose the ball.
    This is already happening and it's happening in your 4-4-2. Or are you going to act oblivious about it? To make matters worse... The workhorse midfield was overrun by Eibar.

    Edit: The only reason I'm in favour of your 4-4-2 is that it is better than 4-2-3-1.
    Last edited by MessiCam; 19th February 2018 at 03:12 PM.

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