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Thread: Richard 'Riqui' Puig

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Because no matter how bad Turan and Gomes were, all La Masia players are even miles behind them.

    In early 2000s we had a monopolly on Spanish youth players and we cheated with buying more than allowed foreign kids.
    Our La Masia success is hugely influenced by cheating and monopolly in those times.

    Now when we can't cheat anymore and when all other teams have internet and 100s of scouts (and when you remove our once in a lifetime lucky generation), Alena and Puig is the best you can get from La Masia.

    Puig is here hailed as some great potential, yet a kid has never been called for any Spanish youth team.

    Imagine that: he is too bad for all youth NT teams and you guys see him as a starter for Barca.

    Someone is deluded in this story.
    And it's not NT coaches who are deluded...

    It's not about delusion, my point is we don't know if players can make the grade as chances are more difficult and limited playtime scuppers their chances of development further. Don't concern yourself with getting called up to National Teams though as the definitive marker to someones ability, Sergio Busquets played 3 times for the U21 and that's it. Not saying anyone can be develop to be a Busquets but it's not remotely as cut and dry that national team call ups equate to great success.

    Players that excel at young ages can grow to be bang average footballers, some develop late. Players like Ian Wright turned professional at 22 and went on to score hundred 170
    + goals for Arsenal and later represented England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergus90 View Post
    It's not about delusion, my point is we don't know if players can make the grade as chances are more difficult and limited playtime scuppers their chances of development further. Don't concern yourself with getting called up to National Teams though as the definitive marker to someones ability, Sergio Busquets played 3 times for the U21 and that's it. Not saying anyone can be develop to be a Busquets but it's not remotely as cut and dry that national team call ups equate to great success.

    Players that excel at young ages can grow to be bang average footballers, some develop late. Players like Ian Wright turned professional at 22 and went on to score hundred 170
    + goals for Arsenal and later represented England.
    Pedro didn't play a lot for Spain youth teams either; only 2 matches with U21 and he ended up having a fine career!

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    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    Hmmm, this is very subjective argument that is filled with I "believe/think".
    It's nothing less subjective than people saying our loans never work out.


    If you believe everyone who was loaned wasn't gonna make it here, sure then loans aren't the one to blame and vice versa.
    About which player exactly do you disagree with my assesment they were/are not good enough to make it here? Henrique? Fontas? Deulofeu? Tello (mainly because we've had MSN because I think he was probably good enough to stay as a backup but he would never play so why would he want to stay)? Montoya? Samper? Palencia? Cardona? Oriol Busquets (the jury is still out on him and maybe he'll prove me wrong but I was never all that impressed with him; still wish him good though)?

    In previous post I've mentioned the players who I think Barça was hoping they would develop into potential future first team players during their loans and some of them did come back (as better players) but still couldn't stay here for more than a season or two.


    I think we need to separate youngsters from players we need to get rid of, who has been already with 1st team football for multiple years. As those has nothing to do with loaning or not loaning Puig. So I don't think the likes of Coutinho/Arda/Ibra is valid here.
    Yeah, we need to separate them but IF we are talking about whether our loans work or not I think it's still valid to mention those players because they were loaned with a purpose get rid of their wages and/or to improve their value to be sold later. And it worked in most cases so I'd say we got what we wanted from loaning those players.


    Also, just because a player rebounded from a bad loan, doesn't mean it was a good one. People learn from mistakes and make it learning experience. It doesn't change the fact it is a mistake. A player like Munir moving to Valencia was truly bad for him. A club that was above his level in terms of quality of players and also is a mess that their home grown superstar prefered to come to warm the bench here than staying there.
    Sure Munir didn't get into the best situation at Valencia but do you think he would develop much better if he'd be on loan at let's say Alaves for two seasons? Do you think he would become good enough to be our future starter or at least a backup for more than 18 months like it happened after his return? I think he's good enough to be a starter in most bottom/midtable clubs in La Liga and a squad player in Valencia/Sevilla (or similar level clubs in other leagues) but he's just not good enough to ever make it back to the top level clubs.

    I won't give club credit for D.Suarez to Villarreal, they wanted him, Sevilla wanted to sell him, Denis wanted to go. We really didn't have much choice and we aren't the one who picked them for him.
    He was on a 2-year loan at Sevilla so we were still deciding about his future. The only part Sevilla played here was to let him go a year earlier which they were prepared to do because he wasn't a key player for them and Denis also expressed his wish to leave.


    I think we haven't done enough to make fan confidence about their club choices developing players. It seems business factor plays a big role and that they make the decision without thinking it thoroughly.
    I dont disagree with this but as said in previous post I think our loans in the last 2-3 seasons were mostly positive.


    It doesn't mean loans are bad options, I still think it is the way to go for mid-level talent. Those who have a chance here but are doubtful and I think Puig and Alena are that level of talent. But bad loans could really hurt player development and it might take time to rebound from it.
    Of course bad loans can hurt players development but can they be all that worse than not playing at all for the first team (Alena) or playing in a league well belove your current level where you can't improve much anymore (Puig)? If players like Denis, Rafinha and Deulofeu got a 2nd or even 3rd chance they shouldn't be affraid they wouldn't come back if they are really as good as people thiink they are and they would prove their quality in another club.

    -------------------------------------
    I'll go a bit OT bellow so sorry for that.

    I understand why people are sceptical about loans and basically a lot of things regarding Barça. It's just in cules's nature (like LVG would said Nunca positivo, siempre negativo) to expect the worst before anything even happens. I don't know if that's because it's easier to get through disappointment if/when it actually happens or if people just want to be smart and say "I've told you so". Probably a bit of both.

    I was pretty pesimistic too 15 or so years ago, overthinking many things and affraid of what negative might happen. But then after some health related issues I've decided to not worry about things I can't impact and just started to look more positively on the world, including my favourite teams in different team sports (I don't like and follow individual sports too much). It's much easier for me since then. I have zero effect on what Barça board or people responsible for my other favourite teams will do so why would I lose my sleep about this? I still hope they would do most things right but I can't prevent them from making wrong decisions so why would I worry about this? In the end it's just a sport. Will my life in general be much better if my sport teams will win a couple more titles? For a few days maybe but then I'll have to go back to deal with my every day stuff rather than thinking about why those well (over)paid millionairs don't care enough to bring more energy, effort,... to do their job better.

    I'm still happy every time we win and disappointed when we don't but I've found ways to get through losses faster and not drag them with me for months/years and expect negative things continuing to happen based on the past experience. Maybe it helped that I've started to follow/support most teams when they were not really at their best or have gone through rough patches in first years of my fandom but they've all been more or less successfull after that (except my MLB team who haven't been in the playoffs for almost 20 years but we're finally making a true rebuild now which gives me hope for a better future) so my expectations were set higher. But when I'm down I'm remembering how I was celebrating Rivaldo's goal that won us 4th place at the time when things were really much worse than they are nowadays. Or that comeback in Paris - I'm still favoring Belletti's goal over any single moment during Pep's tenure here (it's probably only rivaled by Roberto's goal against PSG) - which was followed by two years of disappointments that for me were bigger than anything I've gone through over the last few years. I think most fans got spoiled during Pep's time but on the other hand I've learned to appreciate and value every single win and trophy since then more than I did before. That's why I'm happy if we win "only" La Liga - because this didn't happen regularly before the last decade.
    Last edited by Messi983; 9th December 2019 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Messi983 View Post
    It's nothing less subjective than people saying our loans never work out.


    About which player exactly do you disagree with my assesment they were/are not good enough to make it here? Henrique? Fontas? Deulofeu? Tello (mainly because we've had MSN because I think he was probably good enough to stay as a backup but he would never play so why would he want to stay)? Montoya? Samper? Palencia? Cardona? Oriol Busquets (the jury is still out on him and maybe he'll prove me wrong but I was never all that impressed with him; still wish him good though)?

    In previous post I've mentioned the players who I think Barça was hoping they would develop into potential future first team players during their loans and some of them did come back (as better players) but still couldn't stay here for more than a season or two.

    I think it is actually more subjective from your part, I think many of those could have been much better players and at least good rotation player here. Deulofeu and Montoya could have been developed better despite their limitations.
    And as I said, it isn't just about players being Barca ready, it is about improvements and progress in their career.

    Quote Originally Posted by Messi983 View Post
    Sure Munir didn't get into the best situation at Valencia but do you think he would develop much better if he'd be on loan at let's say Alaves for two seasons? Do you think he would become good enough to be our future starter or at least a backup for more than 18 months like it happened after his return? I think he's good enough to be a starter in most bottom/midtable clubs in La Liga and a squad player in Valencia/Sevilla (or similar level clubs in other leagues) but he's just not good enough to ever make it back to the top level clubs.
    Yes, I think Munir would have been better served 2 years in Alaves over Valencia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Messi983 View Post
    He was on a 2-year loan at Sevilla so we were still deciding about his future. The only part Sevilla played here was to let him go a year earlier which they were prepared to do because he wasn't a key player for them and Denis also expressed his wish to leave.
    He was on loan on paper, with right to buy and right for us to buy him back for extra 3M. The deal was basically "we will give you 3M and Denis for couple of years" as part of Rakitic deal. Sevilla wanted the money sooner, deal agreed with Villarreal as they hold all the keys to the deal. Villarreal wanted him and he wanted to get their. Barca really didn't play any role in picking them. All they had to do is to not block the deal. Which would never made sense as it hurts everyone involved. Hell, rumors we even wanted to cut the loan but ban prevented it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Messi983 View Post
    I dont disagree with this but as said in previous post I think our loans in the last 2-3 seasons were mostly positive.




    Of course bad loans can hurt players development but can they be all that worse than not playing at all for the first team (Alena) or playing in a league well belove your current level where you can't improve much anymore (Puig)? If players like Denis, Rafinha and Deulofeu got a 2nd or even 3rd chance they shouldn't be affraid they wouldn't come back if they are really as good as people thiink they are and they would prove their quality in another club.
    There is an improvement, though Miranda deal seem to point out we still don't get it that much tbh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Messi983 View Post
    I'll go a bit OT bellow so sorry for that.
    I generally agree with this.
    I won't say I am looking to the world in general more positively, but I am no more treating football as make or break for my life or temper. It never stress me out as it once was.
    Things are easier like that, at the end of the day sports are part of the entertaining industry. do you see people fighting or losing sleep over their favorite movie/actor losing an Oscar? or getting mad for days going on forum spilling shit because a movie they watched was bad?!! At most they got mad in some who is better discussions and even that isn't really that healthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    I think it is actually more subjective from your part, I think many of those could have been much better players and at least good rotation player here. Deulofeu and Montoya could have been developed better despite their limitations.
    And as I said, it isn't just about players being Barca ready, it is about improvements and progress in their career.
    Deu, Rafinha, Montoya, Denis,.. were all backups or rotation players here for some time. They just didn't show enough (or had injuries ruining their careers as with Rafinha who I believe had the highest chances of them to make it) to stay longer time.

    I don't disagree that it would maybe be better for Deulofeu if he'd be loaned to another club than Everton or Sevilla but we'll never know that for sure. But I think he's still developed close to his full potential regardless. I just don't see any "unlocked potential" in him that could be triggered by him playing more and/or in a better suited for his development club(s) early in his career.

    As for Montoya at the time when he was loaned out he was 24 so it was already too late for him. I've mentioned that we should've loaned him earlier when we still had Alves. Maybe he would develop better and would be at least a good backup or maybe occasional starter as we've had a pretty big hole at RB spot after Alves left.


    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    IAnd as I said, it isn't just about players being Barca ready, it is about improvements and progress in their career.
    As already said I believe Rafinha, Munir, Denis,... have all improved during their loans so eventhough they are not good enough for Barça it still helped their careers.


    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    Yes, I think Munir would have been better served 2 years in Alaves over Valencia.
    Again I can't disagree but we'll never know for sure and I usually don't like to use "What if" scenarios because we can't change the past. But the same as Deu I think Munir is also playing close to his full potential which was never high enough for him to stay at Barça longer than he did regardless of what decisions affecting his development (loanee clubs in this case) we'd make.

    Fans (not you personally) are often blaming loans or coaches for the players to not reach their potential which is very often exagerrated by the expecting fan base especially when it comes to La Masia kids and those people who were following their progress through youth ranks and fall "in love" with some players so they can't look at them realistically - I was the same around 10 years ago - and then they blame outside factors (obviously when it comes to injuries those can be objective reason for a player to not fullfill his potential) instead of just admitting those players were just not good enough because they've lacked one, two or more key ingredients to make it. Technical abilities (that most people first see in young players) are just a (small) part of this. What often stays hidden for "casual fans" (coaches/clubs know this better working with the players every day but they could obviously still make mistakes) until players reach a senior level of football is a mental aspect of the game that can separate average players from good or potentially great ones.


    Quote Originally Posted by khaled_a_d View Post
    There is an improvement, though Miranda deal seem to point out we still don't get it that much tbh
    Not every loan will work out but there is no doubt Miranda's loan is bad so far. I wonder how much of this is club's fault though. He had offers from Schalke and an Eredivisie club (Utrecht IIRC) and he has decided for Schalke for whatever reason. We don't know if his situation would be much better in another club but it certainly couldn't be worse. I think we also negotiated Schalke will have to pay us some penalties if Miranda won't play certain % of minutes but they probably don't care about this too much. They are currently 4th in the league and David Wagner must be pleased with how their starting LB Oczipka is performing so why would he change anything?

    It would probably be better if we'd sell Miranda with a buy-back option because they would have more incentive to play and develop him but if his situation wouldn't be better that would mean to just give up on him. Now we still have a possibility to bring him back (I don't know if Schalke will agree though) and send him to another club. But I've always thought we should've loaned him to La Liga club like Mallorca who were also interested. His adaptation there would be easier and I'm sure he would play much more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fergus90 View Post
    It's not about delusion, my point is we don't know if players can make the grade as chances are more difficult and limited playtime scuppers their chances of development further. Don't concern yourself with getting called up to National Teams though as the definitive marker to someones ability, Sergio Busquets played 3 times for the U21 and that's it. Not saying anyone can be develop to be a Busquets but it's not remotely as cut and dry that national team call ups equate to great success.

    Players that excel at young ages can grow to be bang average footballers, some develop late. Players like Ian Wright turned professional at 22 and went on to score hundred 170
    + goals for Arsenal and later represented England.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aryagorn View Post
    Pedro didn't play a lot for Spain youth teams either; only 2 matches with U21 and he ended up having a fine career!
    Sorry, I haven't seen this earlier.

    There is a trick with Busi and Pedro though:
    They came to Barca when they were 17-ish, so NT coaches haven't seen them in smaller teams.
    This is why they haven't played in youth NT teams.

    On the other hand, Puig is here since always.
    NT coaches can see him and NONE of them is calling him.

    So, instead of comparing Busi/Pedro with Puig, you should try to find an example of La Masia player who was here since the age of 10 or 13, who wasn't called to youth NT teams and yet he turned into an awesome player later in his career.
    I can't remember any...
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    Puig reminds me of that small porn star Jordi Nino
    kilometers matter ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by total-football View Post
    puig reminds me of that small porn star jordi nino
    loooool

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    He should go on loan. He is not eveb called for a meaningless cl match while busquets will be at the bench and raki and Vidal will start.

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    Wanted to see him play tonight, but got blue-balled by Valverde... He's too good for Segunda...
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    Outrageous he wasn't even on the bench but clear this is a sporting decision from the board - why they insist on risking the loss of Puig boggles the mind
    Paolo Maldini - "In my opinion, Messi should win the Ballon D'Or each year. He's an unbelievable player."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FCBarca View Post
    Outrageous he wasn't even on the bench but clear this is a sporting decision from the board - why they insist on risking the loss of Puig boggles the mind
    Because he is clearly not good enough. As you can see players who are good enough are getting their chances (Perez and Fati...). I doubt that even Valverde wouldn't play him if he was any good in training. As things stand right now he is worse than Alena and Alena is far from a starter material.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raketa10 View Post
    Because he is clearly not good enough. As you can see players who are good enough are getting their chances (Perez and Fati...). I doubt that even Valverde wouldn't play him if he was any good in training. As things stand right now he is worse than Alena and Alena is far from a starter material.
    What's the point of discussing anything if we're just going to take Valverde or the boards decisions as reflecting the true merits of a player. Let's make up our own minds shall we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raketa10 View Post
    Because he is clearly not good enough. As you can see players who are good enough are getting their chances (Perez and Fati...). I doubt that even Valverde wouldn't play him if he was any good in training. As things stand right now he is worse than Alena and Alena is far from a starter material.
    Clearly by whom? You? Valverde? Board?

    You lack credibility for many reasons but mostly due to being incapable of assessing talent
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