User Tag List

View Poll Results: How many CL titles we would have won after 2006' in a world without Messi?

Voters
59. You may not vote on this poll
  • 0 titles after 2006'

    3 5.08%
  • 0 or eventually 1 title after 2006'

    26 44.07%
  • 1 or 2 titles after 2006'

    28 47.46%
  • 3, exactly the same number of titles as with Messi

    2 3.39%
  • 4 or more. We would win even more CL titles without Messi than with him

    1 1.69%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 21 of 21

Thread: A world/Barca without Messi?

  1. #16
    Senior Member
    StarLord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    2,343
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by footyfan View Post
    Pretty sure Messi has more goals than the rest of the Barca squad combined every year for the past few years. So no, they wouldn't be anywhere close enough to finding a satisfactory amount of goals without Messi.

    Only 2009 might have been won without Messi (and with whoever his replacement was going to be). That was the season where I felt the team were strongest and least Messi dependent. In 2011, Real Madrid would have won the treble if Messi didn't play for Barca. And let's not even go to 2015.

    To think they would have 3 CL titles anyway is beyond absurd. Spain would finish no higher than third in La Liga in all the years bar 2008-09 if they were an actual team in the league.
    Barca sans Messi = A lesser Barca.

    For that there can be zero doubt. But if Messi was not there, a lot would hinge on who would be there. Sure, no matter who it was, the team would be weaker, but some players would have been able to make the inevitable drop-off in quality less severe. So, in any case, it is more than fair to speculate that without Messi, Barca would have won less titles, but it is absolutely impossible to say by how much.


    Pretty sure Messi has more goals than the rest of the Barca squad combined every year for the past few years.
    If I get this right, you are saying that Messi has been responsible for over 50% of Barca goals in the past few years, I am sure that this is not correct, so let me look at the numbers:


    09/10

    Barca goals (Messi goals) = 135 (47)

    CL goals = 20 (8)

    10/11

    147 (53)

    CL goals = 30 (12)

    11/12

    190 (73)

    CL goals = 33 (14)

    12/13

    158 (60)

    CL goals = 18 (8)

    13/14

    148 (41)

    CL goals = 21 (8)

    14/15

    175 (58)

    CL goals = 31 (10)



    So, Messi was never nowhere near scoring over 50% of Barca's goals. Having said that, his scoring is a significantly higher % when it comes to the Champions League, but still way less than 50%. What can be argued however, is that not only Messi scores a very high % of Barca's total goal tally (a % that increases further in the Champions League) but he also creates the chances for many of the goals that he does not score. I do not have the numbers right now, but merely through recollection, I think that most of us in here can empirically confirm that be true.


    Messi goals in % terms: Total (Champions League)


    09/10

    34.8% (40%)

    10/11

    36% (40%)

    11/12

    38.4% (42.4%)

    12/13

    38% (44.4%)

    13/14

    27.7% (38%)

    14/15

    33.1% (32.3%)


    So, Messi's contribution to Barca is even more pronounced in the CL (something that emphatically underlines his immense value and quality)

    An additional caveat here though, is that Messi has been the penalty taker for the team in all of the years under consideration, something which skews the statistics considerably. These % have to be expressed with the penaldos taken out of the equation. I am too lazy to do that now.

    One more important conclusion. Messi's contribution in our recent excellent CL season, has reverted to the overall mean. Clearly the value of Suarez and Neymar cannot be overstated. Like I said many times before, Messi finally has "collaborators" worthy of him. By that I don't mean to insinuate that Ney and Luis are as good as Messi, but that they are worthy side-kicks, something that was definitely not the case with Ibra/Villa/Pedro/Alexis.
    Last edited by StarLord; 23rd July 2015 at 11:53 AM.

  2. #17
    Blaugrana al vent
    te amo barca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    4,819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What you say? I claim 0 after tonight

  3. #18
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    14,496
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Barca was more or less ALWAYS one of the best 2-3-4 teams in Europe.

    Cruijff's dream team from early 90s won 4 La Ligas in a row and 1 CL in 1992.
    Van Gaal's team from late 90's was extremely good with Rivaldo, Figo, Kluivert, Lucho and Pep.
    Rijkaard's team from early 00's won 2 La Ligas after 6 years of waiting, and won a CL in 2006.

    Those were 3 awesome teams from the last 20 years, without Messi.
    And then, you have two, equally as good teams from recent years, WITH MESSI.

    Now, imo, when you remove Messi from any of these 5 teams (Cruijff, Van Gaal, Rijkaard, Pep, Lucho), you get 5 Barca's teams who were the best or one of the best 2-3 teams in Europe for 3-4 years.

    Some of these teams were lucky (or good enough) to win a CL even on their own, without Messi (like Cruijff's team in 1992 and Rijkaard's in 2006').
    Some were unlucky, like Van Gaal's team from late 90's (for example, in 1999, Barca was in a group stage of CL with Man. Utd who won the title in the end, and with Bayern, who lost in a final against Man. Utd). So, some of our teams had zero luck in some key moments of matches or in a draw.

    Anyway, imo, Pep's team or Lucho's team, when you remove Messi from that team, aren't better than Cruijff's, Van Gaal's or Rijkaard's team.
    Those were all, imo, equally insanely good teams, who could win CL trophies and multiple La Liga titles.

    But now, when you add Messi and a privilege to have him in his prime in your team, to any of these 5 Barca's teams, then you get=the best team in the universe.

    So, while Pep's team was awesome (with Messi), and while current MSN is awesome with Messi, for me still, the same would happen in any other era.

    In Cruijff's era:
    -- imagine Messi-Romario-Stoichkov trio

    Or imagine 1996's duo:
    -- Messi and Brasilian Il Fenomeno Ronaldo, lol. That would be the most lethal duo in the history of all sports, probably.

    1999:
    -- Figo-Rivaldo-Messi (+Kluivert)
    -- and Lucho, Pep, Cocu behind them (lol)
    = they would surely win 3-4 CL titles in 7-8 years
    = without Messi, they won zero titles, and Galacticos took all the glory

    Or even imagine if Messi was 10 years older and that we would have prime Messi-prime Ronnie-prime Etoo for 5-6 years
    -- they would again win 3-4 CL titles in 6-7 years

    So, yes, Messi can't play with bad teammates. Like in Argentina.
    But any of our famous teams from the last 20 years, if you add Messi to those teams, would turn into a sextuple winning teams.

    So, what is the difference between Rivaldo-Figo-Kluivert and Neymar-Suarez?
    = the latter two had Messi and this is why they won a CL

    If Figo and Rivaldo had Messi, they would have won multiple trebles and sextuples.
    But also, if you remove Messi from Neymar and Suarez, you get only a mortal-Barca.
    Like any other of these 5 teams.

    So, Messi is WHAT makes the difference and what turns world-class Barca's team into a Godlike team.
    Neymar and Suarez are just awesome players, like 10s of other during last 20 years (Romario, Stoichkov, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Figo, Kluivert, Ronnie, Etoo, Henry) who would, without Messi, won 0 or 1 CL titles during their spell at Barca, as happened with all other of our legends, who played WITHOUT Messi.
    Comparing Messi to previous squads and claiming it would have made them 'sextuple winners' is absurd.

    They are different groups of players who were not nearly as strong as Barcelona in past 5/6 years.

    Those teams had much bigger weaknesses and even take Messi out and Barcelona would be stronger than a lot of those sides were.

  4. #19
    Senior Member
    BBZ8800's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,539
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by JamDav1982 View Post
    They are different groups of players who were not nearly as strong as Barcelona in past 5/6 years.
    Valdes, far from best Gks in the world.
    Mascherano, not a CB at all.
    Alba, lol. Better than players from past generations. Just lol.
    Rakitic, the same as Cocu.

    Anyway, I think that Van Gaal's team was insanely strong.
    So, to make it shorter, in which universe are Rivaldo-Figo NOT good enough as Neymar and Suarez?

    Remove 30-50% of Neymar-Suarez's goals due to Messi and you get "the real Neymar and Suarez".
    Also, if you add 30-50% to already seen Figo-Rivaldo's skills (a bonus because of Messi), again, how can anyone claim that Ney-Sua is superior?

    Except if you are buying the hype that everything from today is better than anything from the past, which media and a hype machine are trying to sell us?
    (You know, if current players are the best, people will watch matches more often and more often read the news.
    If the current players are average, they won't be that interesting.

    So, it is in media's, Fifa's, Uefa's, Cl's, sponsor's interest that current teams, players, attacking trios are always hyped the best, never seen before and similar.

    Would you rather watch a CL final between 2 meh teams, or between a spectacular Barca-Madrid match, with 2 aliens playing 1 vs 1 and similar, or any never-seen-before opponents?)

    MSN trio can be special only because of Messi in it.
    Remove Messi and you have an average (world class) duo like any other Barca's duo ever.

  5. #20
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    14,496
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by BBZ8800 View Post
    Valdes, far from best Gks in the world.
    Mascherano, not a CB at all.
    Alba, lol. Better than players from past generations. Just lol.
    Rakitic, the same as Cocu.

    Anyway, I think that Van Gaal's team was insanely strong.
    So, to make it shorter, in which universe are Rivaldo-Figo NOT good enough as Neymar and Suarez?

    Remove 30-50% of Neymar-Suarez's goals due to Messi and you get "the real Neymar and Suarez".
    Also, if you add 30-50% to already seen Figo-Rivaldo's skills (a bonus because of Messi), again, how can anyone claim that Ney-Sua is superior?

    Except if you are buying the hype that everything from today is better than anything from the past, which media and a hype machine are trying to sell us?
    (You know, if current players are the best, people will watch matches more often and more often read the news.
    If the current players are average, they won't be that interesting.

    So, it is in media's, Fifa's, Uefa's, Cl's, sponsor's interest that current teams, players, attacking trios are always hyped the best, never seen before and similar.

    Would you rather watch a CL final between 2 meh teams, or between a spectacular Barca-Madrid match, with 2 aliens playing 1 vs 1 and similar, or any never-seen-before opponents?)

    MSN trio can be special only because of Messi in it.
    Remove Messi and you have an average (world class) duo like any other Barca's duo ever.
    Do you think Barcas squad being strongest ever is based on Masch, Alba and Valdes? Or is it based more based on the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Alves, Pique, Puyol etc and more recently Neymar and Suarez?

    Despite that Valdes is Barcas best GK of all time. Particularly in the style the team played.

    Mascherano at CB the player Pep called his greatest signing and would walk into just about any of those teams you mentioned in the past.

    In the past BBZ you have spent hours telling me how it is easier for the likes of Messi and Neymar these days as Barca have 'super squads' compared to the past...now you are trying to make out there is no difference really only Messi.

    Listing all these great teams of the past makes no real difference as my point is Messi like every player needs great players around him to elevate Barca to sextuples etc. So saying Messi would elevate a team with the likes of Figo, Romario, Rivaldo etc is making my point.

    Would he elevate them to sextuples? I doubt it unless the teams was complete and functioning to get best out of him.
    Last edited by JamDav1982; 27th August 2015 at 12:31 PM.

  6. #21
    Senior Member
    Lomar1o's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Georgia, Tbilisi
    Posts
    1,036
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    HOPEFULLY we'd have won 1 CL title without Messi, but even that would've been really difficult, like really.