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Thread: Copa: Atletico Madrid - FC Barcelona 2-3

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muttu View Post
    MEH - MVP - MSN

    The magical trident's continue! Let's hope this one also brings us CL like the first two did!

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by putogusiluz8 View Post
    It was like playing with 10 men, in the sense you couldn't pass back to Pinto without your heart dropping and u shitting it out ur ass.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnV2P01cDl4

    anyone remember whos the player who didnt get his pass in first and even fell down?
    Mes Que un Club

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerkeleyBernie View Post
    Two flaws in that argument:

    1) Lucho's is an entirely different Barça midfield/frontline tactically than the Pep era. This iteration hasn't been given much space to work with (at least not by a top team). While still a technically excellent team, how well space would be used by Lucho's "Lineup of the Day" is still uncertain.

    2) There are two kinds of "giving space." One is to chase the ball in one's own half, which I agree is suicidal. No one does that anymore, as Barça is simply too good at keepball and working the ball between the lines, if too far apart. The other is to press high up the pitch and make it difficult for Barça to play out of their *own* half. We haven't seen this tactic much against Lucho's Barça (I don't recall any such games once Suarez was in the lineup) and this is the kind of giving space that creates the potential for counterattacks. We've seen previous post-Pep Barça midfields start to crack under this kind of pressure, though most teams can't sustain the pressure much into the second half. Atletico was largely successful against this Lucho/Suarez/Rakitic Barça in preventing them from playing the ball out. But no one really knew how well Barça might counter *if* they could get out.

    Needing both to contain Barça and chasing two goals, a high press was a reasonable gamble by Simeone, and required exceptional play on the counter to be defeated.
    I think you've misunderstood 2 of my argument.

    1) I was not saying that Simeone's tactics were wrong, on the contrary, that's exactly how we should've played if he was looking to win.

    2) If you let the other team see more of the ball, then it's them not us who have to either play a possession game in their own half or move the ball forward –*and that's why a high pressing style plays to our advantages, because when the opposing has the ball they have no choice but to push it forward, leaving space for MSN. And when they don't have possession, they will press which might force more mistakes from us but which will also leave more space for MSN. That's why the team that wins that matchup is the one that can make the best out of its goalscoring opportunities, ergo why a high pressing style plays to our advantage because we have MSN.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythical Revolution View Post
    I think you've misunderstood 2 of my argument.

    2) If you let the other team see more of the ball, then it's them not us who have to either play a possession game in their own half or move the ball forward –*and that's why a high pressing style plays to our advantages, because when the opposing has the ball they have no choice but to push it forward, leaving space for MSN. And when they don't have possession, they will press which might force more mistakes from us but which will also leave more space for MSN. That's why the team that wins that matchup is the one that can make the best out of its goalscoring opportunities, ergo why a high pressing style plays to our advantage because we have MSN.
    My point is that a high pressing opponent does NOT necessarily play to Barça's advantage:

    1) Barça is not set up to defend in its own half; it defends by keeping a high line, possessing the ball, playing and retrieving the ball in the opponent's half as quickly as possible. Barça is most vulnerable when not controlling the ball. The opinion of some here that Barça suddenly adopted a "give the opponent the ball, we'll counterattack" strategy is like looking at a beggar in tattered clothes and saying "wow, what a bold retro fashion statement." The simple fact is that Atletico forced Barça into booting the ball up the field much of the time, where Atletico won most aerial duels, and attacked again.

    2) Certainly, pressing does leave more space for a counterattack. My point was that, despite the obvious quality of the Barça front three, just exactly how well they would be able to counterattack wasn't known for sure (and let's not forget the immense contribution by Alba, which turned a 3v4 into a 3v4 + 1v1). We still don't know for sure; my impression was the Atletico back line, while notoriously tenacious when defending deep in its own box, was not nearly as well coordinated when playing a high line. Other teams may press *AND* defend a high line much better. Also, the success of the counters come from Messi being the initiator. Neymar is far better suited to being on the receiving end; he is slow to release the ball when attacks start on his side, and his distribution is far worse than Messi and Suarez. If a team can hold Messi up long enough, that could be more than enough to kill Barça's counterattacking threat.

    This is not to take away from a fine and deserved win. And I'm no scowl-faced pessimist; I'm of the opinion Barça could win the treble. Yet, I'd be cautious to interpret this game as representative of a successful new strategy of counterattacking. It had much more to do with what strategy Atletico needed to implement if they were to have a chance of advancing.
    Last edited by BerkeleyBernie; 30th January 2015 at 03:29 AM.
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  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerkeleyBernie View Post
    And I'm no scowl-faced pessimist; I'm of the opinion Barça could win the treble. Yet, I'd be cautious to interpret this game as representative of a successful new strategy of counterattacking. It had much more to do with what strategy Atletico needed to implement if they were to have a chance of advancing.
    Obviously it is not a new strategy that Barca is going to play going forward. It was just a tactic for 1 particular game knowing exactly what your opponents is going to do. I think Barca deliberately left the ball to ATM because it was consistent with our counter attacking tactics. I did not see Barca struggling, quite opposite- we were cool and calm(a mistake from Masche, it can happen in any game). What I saw desperate ATM team realizing that they are not going to play that high tempo game for too long and after Miranda's own goal they were looking for exit strategy, because it was obvious that Barca is about to mop the floors with them. Maybe Ref didn't notice Alba's handball but he gave wrong PK, disallowed legitimate goal and should have shown at least 1 red in the first half. I don't understand what is your problem with our tactics- what we should have done? Put Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the midfield play our usual possession game? This game was probably most disastrous game for Cholo as a manager, we screwed them up really bad. The whole team of ATM looked completely disorganized, demoralized and undignified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mssarm View Post
    Obviously it is not a new strategy that Barca is going to play going forward. It was just a tactic for 1 particular game knowing exactly what your opponents is going to do. I think Barca deliberately left the ball to ATM because it was consistent with our counter attacking tactics. I did not see Barca struggling, quite opposite- we were cool and calm(a mistake from Masche, it can happen in any game). What I saw desperate ATM team realizing that they are not going to play that high tempo game for too long and after Miranda's own goal they were looking for exit strategy, because it was obvious that Barca is about to mop the floors with them. Maybe Ref didn't notice Alba's handball but he gave wrong PK, disallowed legitimate goal and should have shown at least 1 red in the first half. I don't understand what is your problem with our tactics- what we should have done? Put Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the midfield play our usual possession game? This game was probably most disastrous game for Cholo as a manager, we screwed them up really bad. The whole team of ATM looked completely disorganized, demoralized and undignified.
    Quite agreed.. i guess Lucho prepared for this game and hope he will do the same for other gamez.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by mssarm View Post
    Obviously it is not a new strategy that Barca is going to play going forward. It was just a tactic for 1 particular game knowing exactly what your opponents is going to do. I think Barca deliberately left the ball to ATM because it was consistent with our counter attacking tactics. I did not see Barca struggling, quite opposite- we were cool and calm(a mistake from Masche, it can happen in any game). What I saw desperate ATM team realizing that they are not going to play that high tempo game for too long and after Miranda's own goal they were looking for exit strategy, because it was obvious that Barca is about to mop the floors with them. Maybe Ref didn't notice Alba's handball but he gave wrong PK, disallowed legitimate goal and should have shown at least 1 red in the first half. I don't understand what is your problem with our tactics- what we should have done? Put Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in the midfield play our usual possession game? This game was probably most disastrous game for Cholo as a manager, we screwed them up really bad. The whole team of ATM looked completely disorganized, demoralized and undignified.
    Playing direct (getting the ball *to* players up the field) is a tactic. Booting the ball out under pressure (easily intercepted) is not a tactic, it is a reaction. Barça was not cool and calm- if they had been, they would have gotten the ball *to* the players. The first counterattack was successful because of Messi's brilliance at getting out of trouble and Suarez immediate and perfect release. But just because those two were able to get the ball out so brilliantly that time doesn't mean the team wasn't troubled immensely by Atletico's pressure. You are focusing on the exception, not the whole. ATM was hardly "disorganized, demoralized" until things started going Barça's way.

    Here's what I've said: Barça has solved several of their problems:
    1) Offensively- breaking through the parked bus. The Messi/Rakitic/Alves overload on the right (with Suarez occupying the centerbacks) is highly effective. It's a problem the team has struggled with for a long time, and this will make it much more difficult for teams to sit deep for very long. This is the way most teams play against Barça, so this is a huge advance.
    2) Defensively- better defending of set pieces. One of the two great Barça weaknesses appears to finally have been addressed.

    However, Barca has yet to evolve a tactic with the current players to deal with the other defensive weakness:
    3) Defensively - withstanding pressure and direct play.

    Rakitic has impressed in the previous two games when Atletico did their typical deep defense, fitting the right overload tactic perfectly, but he has been entirely unconvincing when pressured. He adds speed in retreating (over Xavi) but there has been no answer yet for the old security of the fantastic touch and ball movement of prime Xavi-Busquets-Iniesta, who could withstand pressure out of sheer technical quality. Since very few teams actually try to pressure Barça (and, of them, few have the quality to make much of it anyhow), Barça really hasn't had the opportunity to find what works. This game was a good test. While the counters were wonderfully executed, I'm sure Lucho and his tactical team will be looking at where the team did not deal well with the pressure, and seeing what adjustments can be made (in lineup, tactics, or both) to improve. I personally don't think Rakitic is ready to play against a high pressure opponent. I'm not sure who would be better- possibly Rafinha.
    Last edited by BerkeleyBernie; 30th January 2015 at 06:54 AM.
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  8. #248
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    Barcelona on Wednesday scored their 100th (and 101st 102nd) goal against Atletico at Calderon #fcblive Most: Messi 8, Stoichkov 7 [via pn]

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerkeleyBernie View Post
    Playing direct (getting the ball *to* players up the field) is a tactic. Booting the ball out under pressure (easily intercepted) is not a tactic, it is a reaction. Barça was not cool and calm- if they had been, they would have gotten the ball *to* the players. The first counterattack was successful because of Messi's brilliance at getting out of trouble and Suarez immediate and perfect release. But just because those two were able to get the ball out so brilliantly that time doesn't mean the team wasn't troubled immensely by Atletico's pressure. You are focusing on the exception, not the whole. ATM was hardly "disorganized, demoralized" until things started going Barça's way.
    You are not taking the game as whole , you are just focusing on incidents. Booting a ball under pressure happens to every team and it is normal because in the game like this there's time when you gather the stones and time when you throw stones. There was no point for Barca to run up and down the pitch and compete with ATM. Our goal wasn't bombarded by ATM players, it was business as usual for MAtS. Did you see Barca panic when we conceded first? Remember what happened to ATM when they conceded ? You can lose a game it happens to every team, but the mental toll it took on ATM players wasn't something that you see all the time.

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    Teams like Bayern, Atletico and Real have pressured Barcas back line early on in games like the other night for years now and have looked much more dangerous than they did the other night.

    Barca were not just booting the ball away early they were looking to clear or pass it early to the wide areas where Messi/Neymar would be waiting.

    The tactic was for Messi/Neymar and Suarez to stay high up the park and look to get on those clearances. They were not dropping deep to try and help play the ball out in numbers from the back.

    It was the correct thing to do for a few reasons - the pitch was shocking and passing out from back dangerous and it was an advantage to Barca to make it an open game as any goal mean Atletico needed to score two more.

    Barca got their tactics spot on. Atleti didnt. Atleti commited too many men pressing up park and Barca exposed it on the break.

    If Barca have this in their locker it will make teams think twice about pressing in numbers so high up in park. Where in the past Barca broke past that pressing their passing was so slow and safe teams could get back in shape.

    The effect in the future could well be teams are scared to press up park like that and sit back a bit more giving Barca more room to play out from back. I

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamDav1982 View Post
    Teams like Bayern, Atletico and Real have pressured Barcas back line early on in games like the other night for years now and have looked much more dangerous than they did the other night.

    Barca were not just booting the ball away early they were looking to clear or pass it early to the wide areas where Messi/Neymar would be waiting.

    The tactic was for Messi/Neymar and Suarez to stay high up the park and look to get on those clearances. They were not dropping deep to try and help play the ball out in numbers from the back.

    It was the correct thing to do for a few reasons - the pitch was shocking and passing out from back dangerous and it was an advantage to Barca to make it an open game as any goal mean Atletico needed to score two more.

    Barca got their tactics spot on. Atleti didnt. Atleti commited too many men pressing up park and Barca exposed it on the break.

    If Barca have this in their locker it will make teams think twice about pressing in numbers so high up in park. Where in the past Barca broke past that pressing their passing was so slow and safe teams could get back in shape.

    The effect in the future could well be teams are scared to press up park like that and sit back a bit more giving Barca more room to play out from back. I
    I think so too. Atletico were surprised by how quick we engaged MSN trio from defensive positions. They didn't expect us to exploit their spaces so fast. We also have to keep in mind this was an away game on one of the most difficult places to win today and on a bad pitch. Let's not forget we did play the Barca way in the first leg. We wanted flexibility, that's what it looks like. You can't play the same all the time if you don't have the players for that. Xavi's gone, Iniesta's in decline. I don't mind pragmatic approaches.
    Last edited by serghei; 30th January 2015 at 05:37 PM.

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    Isnt it nice to be able to be pissed about how we BEAT Atletico instead of being pissed about having 0 shots on goal against them

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    Quote Originally Posted by DinhoR10 View Post
    Isnt it nice to be able to be pissed about how we BEAT Atletico instead of being pissed about having 0 shots on goal against them

  14. #254
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    You can have 15 players on that awful pitch on Calderon play vs. Atleti and I bet you they couldn't play "cool, controlled direct football". Not in first 20 mins. anyway when they go after you like bloodthirsty pack od wolves.

    Barca won 3 CONSECUTIVE matches vs. La Liga champion and almost CL winners. Team we haven't beaten in years.

    Do you really still underestimate Cholo's Atleti that much to think you can boss them around?

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