Is it time to ditch possession football and build up something from the ground up?

Leo_Messi said:

I am not sure and to be frank then I don't care about what Pep is doing at Bayern. FCB and Bayern are not comparable currently IMO. Pep would be unable to repeat his possession game at FCB currently due to the rapid decline of Xavi and Iniesta.

I don't know. How should Bayern have played otherwise? From what I recall Bayern should have won at the Bernabéu. At least they had the chances to score that vital away goal. In the return leg Ramos scored two headers. Both from set piecers. Nothing to do with Bayern playing possession football or not. During that period they had a tendency of giving set piece goals away to their opponents.

Hard not to when the spine of the team is the same.

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What do you think about the mercato then?

Should be have sold Xavi and Inesta to recruit Kroos + another player?

As for what you said above, I don't feel like Bayern could have won in the end against RM. Even if they scored that one goal, nothing tells you that RM would have not reacted differently and scored one, two or three after that.

Bertus said:

As I see it, I don't see us winning against Pep's team if we face Bayern if Barca stays the same.As Leo_messi pointed it out, I don't mean to not play possession football from time to time. Even RM does it sometimes when an opponent just parks the bus.

What I mean is that Barcelona should be able to adapt instead of relying too much on the same playstyle.

I think that to win against Pep, you have to counter his possession based playstyle. If you try to outdo him, I am pretty sure that 99% of the time it will be your loss.

Yet Barca, IMO, right now, is unable to counter somebody that does the same kind of playstyle that barca is doing but way better. And Barca is also unable to beat RM that use a tactic to counter possession football.

What I am saying is also true when you face RM. Instead of going against them just like you would go against any team, I think it would be better to have a tactic in mind to counter them.

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Agree with every single word you wrote above, Bertus!

Bertus my friend, I am surprised and elated to see the first sentence where you referred to Barca as "us" and "we". Are you officially a Culé now?

:barca scarf:

The problem is not keeping possession. It's keeping it only for the sake of it. The current team pass the ball around without any purpose, and very, very slowly. That's what needs addressing.
Also, they need to be faster when they can counter. Currently, most players slow down the attack and kill the counters.

My impression is that Lucho has realized that both Xavi and Iniesta have topped and that they are not getting any better. What was once the main strength of Pep's team (midfield) is now a weakness of the team IMO. In order to compensate for that he tries to omit the influence of the midfield. Or at least this was his plan at the beginning when he omitted Xavi.

I remember similar discussions even during the Pep era (2008-2012) despite all the immense success. I remember that many people wanted us to change completely after the unfair exit against Inter in the CL-semifinal while the club won the league title and CL the season after and was a lost CDR final (after extra time against RM) away from repeating another "El Triplete" in the span of 3 seasons!

I did not take that criticism back then seriously because I knew that wining everything is impossible first of all and secondly that the strengths of the playing style back then outweighed the negatives 95% of the time.

Now currently we are neither the best possession team let alone counter attacking team. So even if we changed tactics it would not have much of a influence on the performances IMO against the likes of Bayern, RM and Chelsea.

Besides I already believe that we were quite pragmatic under Tata and that has not really changed under Lucho IMO.

Also I believe that Lucho is clearly working towards implementing new tactics. Whether he will succeed or not time will only tell. I say no. Why? Due to the limitations of our squad.

Luftstalag14 said:

Agree with every single word you wrote above, Bertus!

Bertus my friend, I am surprised and elated to see the first sentence where you referred to Barca as "us" and "we". Are you officially a Culé now?

:barca scarf:

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I always was. But because I think that you need to step back to avoid being trapped in fanboyism, I always try to refer to the clubs I support as "PSG", "Barca", etc. And to talk about them as if I was not part of those entities.

Sometimes I forgot to do it and write/say "us" and "we". Usually when I'm angry (which happens very often with PSG) or when I'm deep into a debate (like right now).

I do not blame possession football for this decline. It's a collection of several issues putting together that made this happen. But, I agree Barca should not be 'obsessed' with certain things, which one of them is this half arsed possession football, or better say stupid sideway passes which do no good at the end.

The team obviously needed some adjustments to their system a while ago, but was resistant to the changes. Just look at all the criticisms Tata has received last season for the changes he made, even when he was winning by 4 goals.

Arrogance was Barca's biggest reason for downfall, not possession football.

Bertus said:

What do you think about the mercato then?

Should be have sold Xavi and Inesta to recruit Kroos + another player?

As for what you said above, I don't feel like Bayern could have won in the end against RM. Even if they scored that one goal, nothing tells you that RM would have not reacted differently and scored one, two or three after that.

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I would have done it all very differently. I would have bought Isco as the first player back in 2013 when Thiago left. Similarly I would have bought Kroos. Instead the board thought that Xavi and Iniesta would last forever and that there was no need to strengthen the midfield as this had been the main strength of the team for ages. On the other hand RM identified their weakness (midfield) and strengthened themselves in a better way on this front than anyone could imagine. Let's not forget them buying Modric back in 2012. That was also a really good transfer despite Modric's first season which was rather poor as I recall it but so was the entire RM performance overall.

Well, we will never know but RM always appeared more hungry to me. Nobody on that team aside from Iker had won the CL for RM before. They were eager to win it. The obsession about La Décima and all did not hurt their determination either nor their 3 consecutive CL-semifinal defeats.

While BM had already won it the year before and they also won the domestic league in March (basically already in February) which made them lose focus all while RM was still fighting for the league title and thus never losing focus.

At the end of the day the difference in quality in terms of last seasons BM and RM was not that great either. Nor is that the case today. For instance I would not be surprised if BM defeats RM this season if they are to meet each other in the CL.

How do you define possession play?

If we want to have 70% of the ball every game regardless of the opposition then I feel only Pep can achieve the best results possible. Especially with the team we have, where most players are 170cm tall and only 2 or 3 are taller. Which means we offer absolutely no set piece threat (while being vulnerable in defensive set pieces) and we aren't able to play high crosses because no one can head the ball. When you limit yourself that much, you need to have a very detailed and clear plan of what to do tactically and Pep is simply the best at that.

People say that the Barca team of 10/11 is the best side ever. But it's the 08/09 team that actually won every competition it entered. The 10/11 team was better technically but in my eyes the Treble winning team had more to offer. They were strong in set pieces, were able to counter attack while obviously able to keep the ball.

Bayern under Heynckes were also a possession team. But they were a complete team, just like Barca 08/09 were. They tried to dominate possession every game but they used it effectively. Against Arsenal and Barcelona in the Champions League they gave up possession because they knew they could hurt those teams on the counter attack, and they did.

So in my eyes, it's about the interpretation of "possession play" and how extremely you want to follow the philosophy. Depending on the interpretation, it can work. But knowing Barcelona, it probably won't, because having less possession is probably seen as a humiliation here. Just like when Martino had 46% of the ball against Rayo Vallecano but won 4-0. Unless we get rid of that way of thinking, we will always chase Pep's shadow.

Leo_Messi said:

My impression is that Lucho has realized that both Xavi and Iniesta have topped and that they are not getting any better. What was once the main strength of Pep's team (midfield) is now a weakness of the team IMO. In order to compensate for that he tries to omit the influence of the midfield. Or at least this was his plan at the beginning when he omitted Xavi.

I remember similar discussions even during the Pep era (2008-2012) despite all the immense success. I remember that many people wanted us to change completely after the unfair exit against Inter in the CL-semifinal while the club won the league title and CL the season after and was a lost CDR final (after extra time against RM) away from repeating another "El Triplete" in the span of 3 seasons!

I did not take that criticism back then seriously because I knew that wining everything is impossible first of all and secondly that the strengths of the playing style back then outweighed the negatives 95% of the time.

Now currently we are neither the best possession team let alone counter attacking team. So even if we changed tactics it would not have much of a influence on the performances IMO against the likes of Bayern, RM and Chelsea.

Besides I already believe that we were quite pragmatic under Tata and that has not really changed under Lucho IMO.

Also I believe that Lucho is clearly working towards implementing new tactics. Whether he will succeed or not time will only tell. I say no. Why? Due to the limitations of our squad.

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As for me, I wanted Barca to get rid of Xavi and Inesta.

They are still great players, especially Inesta, but they are getting old and I feel they are too much trapped in the barca from the past. I don't think they can evolve anymore.

Yet many fans don't share the same opinion, especially about Inesta.

And yeah, I think Lucho wanted to part ways with Xavi at least, but he was stopped halfway. Was it because of teammates who refused that to happen or because of the board I don't know.

And yeah, contrary to coaches like Laurent Blanc, I feel that Lucho is actually trying to do something. And I think sometimes it's unfair how fans get angry at him, because I don't think he's free at all.

I think Lucho thought he would be able to go along with his plans, signed his contract and then discovered the board (and maybe players themselves) were against the changes he wanted to do.

For example, he wanted cuadrado, he wanted to bench/sell Xavi. In the end, he could do only half of what he wanted to do and is blamed for it.

As I see it, any coach would have faced that problems.

If you want to compare, we know from Hermel that when Perez chased after carlo, carlo made him promise that he could do whatever he wants.

He wanted Bale? Perez paid 100M+ for him. He wanted to bench Di Maria? Perez let him do it.

It's like it's impossible here. Compare with Cuadrado or what happened with Xavi.

So far Pep failed at bayern (yeah I consider he failed because last year, he got spanked so hard in CL that I consider it a failure, sorry Ryu), but what he's trying to do is good IMO. He cut all ties to what was previously done at Bayern, and wanted to do something new without being trapped with german ghosts from the past or any legacy

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Imagine that Ancelotti moved here, would it be bad if he developed his lightning counter-attacking tactics here and be successful like he is in Madrid?

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It's good that you paved the way for this argument.

The only existing contrast is that Barça is deep rooted in an ideal of possession football, mainly imo because it is the "purest" version of the game, and guarantees (in theory and often in practice) a beautiful show.
No club is more possessed by this concept, and no team has pushed it as far as Guardiola's barça (not considering current bayern).

As a result, after the initial gore fest that was most of 2008-2011, opposing teams started parking the bus almost every single game, resulting in some of the most asymmetrical games ever played. Needless to say "how to beat barça" has been one of the trendiest question in world football, and coaches have become very experienced at it.

After years of facing this kind of opposition, even substantial tactical variations may not be enough to cut it nearly every time, like we want to.

Then you have to consider the quality of the opposition. 2nd season Mourinho's Madrid, Heynckes' Bayern, Guardiola's bayern are extremely strong teams able to beat us without betting it all on 2 or 3 counters and set-pieces. Losing to them is not a disproval of possession style imo (fact with guardiola's bayern ofc)

And then, we have our own problems: inability to play just as fast as before, somewhat less pressure to get the ball back high up the pitch (though better this season), along with individual decline, Xavi's being imo more important than anyone else's. Even fucking dani alves. Xavi remains far superior in his way, and didn't decline as much as Alves, but the impact on the flow of play is big. We lack that half-second that used to constantly create chances.

So all in all, barça's decline is not just about Pep's legacy.


Now is perpetuating possession football "living in Guardiola's shadow" ?
No. That tradition is deep-rooted and legitimate, until it becomes obvious we would be better off with a radically different style of play, which it isn't, at least with our current crop of players (Busi, Dani, Xavi, Iniesta come to mind)
And with the transfer ban, I don't see how that situation could resolve itself soon.

But would it be okay, in theory, to switch to counter-attacking tactics if they offer a real better chance of winning? That's almost a matter of life philosophy . It's also a matter of personal taste. I would be fine with it if the output is enjoyable to watch.

But the sole fact that one needs to ask that question regarding barça shows how difficult it would be to change.

And of course, our entire academies are all cut from the same cloth, driven with the same game plans, which is btw an incredible asset for a club.

So really, it would be a revolution, and though I'm french I don't like revolutions that much .
I also think neither Tito nor Tata had enough time/freedom to do what they want. I'm still reserving judgment on Enrique. Di Matteo won the freaking CL.

All in all, would I be ok with it ? Yes.
Do I want it? No.

Do you think we only just started playing possession football when Guardiola came?

There was a heavy focus on ball retention ever since Cruyff started coaching us. Different managers had different tweaks, but for the most part its generally stayed the same.

Leo_Messi said:

My impression is that Lucho has realized that both Xavi and Iniesta have topped and that they are not getting any better. What was once the main strength of Pep's team (midfield) is now a weakness of the team IMO. In order to compensate for that he tries to omit the influence of the midfield. Or at least this was his plan at the beginning when he omitted Xavi.
I remember similar discussions even during the Pep era (2008-2012) despite all the immense success. I remember that many people wanted us to change completely after the unfair exit against Inter in the CL-semifinal while the club won the league title and CL the season after and was a lost CDR final (after extra time against RM) away from repeating another "El Triplete" in the span of 3 seasons!

I did not take that criticism back then seriously because I knew that wining everything is impossible first of all and secondly that the strengths of the playing style back then outweighed the negatives 95% of the time.

Now currently we are neither the best possession team let alone counter attacking team. So even if we changed tactics it would not have much of a influence on the performances IMO against the likes of Bayern, RM and Chelsea.

Besides I already believe that we were quite pragmatic under Tata and that has not really changed under Lucho IMO.

Also I believe that Lucho is clearly working towards implementing new tactics. Whether he will succeed or not time will only tell. I say no. Why? Due to the limitations of our squad.

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I don't care what tactics Enrique is brewing, omitting the midfield is stupid and suicidal. Messi can't do everything for us.

DrPepper said:

How do you define possession play?

If we want to have 70% of the ball every game regardless of the opposition then I feel only Pep can achieve the best results possible. Especially with the team we have, where most players are 170cm tall and only 2 or 3 are taller. Which means we offer absolutely no set piece threat (while being vulnerable in defensive set pieces) and we aren't able to play high crosses because no one can head the ball. When you limit yourself that much, you need to have a very detailed and clear plan of what to do tactically and Pep is simply the best at that.

People say that the Barca team of 10/11 is the best side ever. But it's the 08/09 team that actually won every competition it entered. The 10/11 team was better technically but in my eyes the Treble winning team had more to offer. They were strong in set pieces, were able to counter attack while obviously able to keep the ball.

Bayern under Heynckes were also a possession team. But they were a complete team, just like Barca 08/09 were. They tried to dominate possession every game but they used it effectively. Against Arsenal and Barcelona in the Champions League they gave up possession because they knew they could hurt those teams on the counter attack, and they did.

So in my eyes, it's about the interpretation of "possession play" and how extremely you want to follow the philosophy. Depending on the interpretation, it can work. But knowing Barcelona, it probably won't, because having less possession is probably seen as a humiliation here. Just like when Martino had 46% of the ball against Rayo Vallecano but won 4-0. Unless we get rid of that way of thinking, we will always chase Pep's shadow.

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+1

I am not 100% against possession, but I think what's important is to win. And sometimes if having more chances to win means to let go of possession, then Barca should do it.

But as you said, many fans start to rage when the possession % is low. Sometimes Tata was trashed wrongly for no reasons. He was actually more changeable, IMO, than the current Lucho.

DrPepper said:

How do you define possession play?

If we want to have 70% of the ball every game regardless of the opposition then I feel only Pep can achieve the best results possible. Especially with the team we have, where most players are 170cm tall and only 2 or 3 are taller. Which means we offer absolutely no set piece threat (while being vulnerable in defensive set pieces) and we aren't able to play high crosses because no one can head the ball. When you limit yourself that much, you need to have a very detailed and clear plan of what to do tactically and Pep is simply the best at that.

People say that the Barca team of 10/11 is the best side ever. But it's the 08/09 team that actually won every competition it entered. The 10/11 team was better technically but in my eyes the Treble winning team had more to offer. They were strong in set pieces, were able to counter attack while obviously able to keep the ball.

Bayern under Heynckes were also a possession team. But they were a complete team, just like Barca 08/09 were. They tried to dominate possession every game but they used it effectively. Against Arsenal and Barcelona in the Champions League they gave up possession because they knew they could hurt those teams on the counter attack, and they did.

So in my eyes, it's about the interpretation of "possession play" and how extremely you want to follow the philosophy. Depending on the interpretation, it can work. But knowing Barcelona, it probably won't, because having less possession is probably seen as a humiliation here. Just like when Martino had 46% of the ball against Rayo Vallecano but won 4-0. Unless we get rid of that way of thinking, we will always chase Pep's shadow.

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Agree.

Bertus said:

As for me, I wanted Barca to get rid of Xavi and Inesta.

They are still great players, especially Inesta, but they are getting old and I feel they are too much trapped in the barca from the past. I don't think they can evolve anymore.

Yet many fans don't share the same opinion, especially about Inesta.

And yeah, I think Lucho wanted to part ways with Xavi at least, but he was stopped halfway. Was it because of teammates who refused that to happen or because of the board I don't know.

And yeah, contrary to coaches like Laurent Blanc, I feel that Lucho is actually trying to do something. And I think sometimes it's unfair how fans get angry at him, because I don't think he's free at all.

I think Lucho thought he would be able to go along with his plans, signed his contract and then discovered the board (and maybe players themselves) were against the changes he wanted to do.

For example, he wanted cuadrado, he wanted to bench/sell Xavi. In the end, he could do only half of what he wanted to do and is blamed for it.

As I see it, any coach would have faced that problems.

If you want to compare, we know from Hermel that when Perez chased after carlo, carlo made him promise that he could do whatever he wants.

He wanted Bale? Perez paid 100M+ for him. He wanted to bench Di Maria? Perez let him do it.

It's like it's impossible here. Compare with Cuadrado or what happened with Xavi.

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I would have parted with both of them as well had the board been able to find their replacements (read Isco and Kroos) but they obviously failed doing that.

Of course the board is trapped in the "Pep era" when they since 2012 have failed to improve a team that was clearly in decline. This summer's pathetic "revolution" should have occurred back in 2013 and been a much better revolution.

Lucho clearly wanted Xavi out (this was no secret) but ultimately Xavi stayed and to his defense then he has been one of our best performers this season IMO which says everything about how poor our midfield has been. This is a huge problem.

Tend to agree with that but it also has something to do with Ancelotti being a top dog manager wise while Lucho is still la novice. So was Tata in European football. Basically he was totally unknown and the squad did not even know who he was outside of Messi and Mascherano. He told recently himself in a interview that I read on EMD.

We can't make all those tactical changes without the right setup (squad and board) so for me such a revolution can only succeed when this happens.

Peerless said:

Do you think we only just started playing possession football when Guardiola came?

There was a heavy focus on ball retention ever since Cruyff started coaching us. Different managers had different tweaks, but for the most part its generally stayed the same.

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I know that, but I think it was the pinnacle of that playstyle mainly due to the coach that was Pep. That's what I meant all along.