Ivan Rakitić

CatalinR10

Senior Member
It has to be either Busquets - Frenkie - Arthur or Rakitic - Frenkie - Arthur

Busquets and Rakitic never worked and never will. I'm talking about games that matter not about games that you could put the B team and let Messi be himself and still win.


Ideally we could get a midfielder better than Busquets and Rakitic and send them to the bench/sell Rakitic.
 

Rory

Senior Member
It has to be either Busquets - Frenkie - Arthur or Rakitic - Frenkie - Arthur

Busquets and Rakitic never worked and never will. I'm talking about games that matter not about games that you could put the B team and let Messi be himself and still win.


Ideally we could get a midfielder better than Busquets and Rakitic and send them to the bench/sell Rakitic.

Or better yet, develop a system of choosing players based on the opponent's likely tactics and the form of our players. Raki and busi are good enough against most opposition as long as we are playing at home. When away and the home team presses more they shouldn't play together. Everyone but valverde can see this.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
My opinion is still that with a core from the last season=a team plays meh to ok, but they are at least consistent.
Lenglet-Pique-Roberto were back.
Busi-Raki back.
Messi-Suarez back.

This team will probably lose in the same way in a CL, but for La liga, they are good enough for a title.

The problem is that the other option, a team with too many new players: is too young, players don't have mutual understanding and chemistry.
And their quality is often questionable.

Imo, with a team from yesterday, we will consistently get 7/10 level of performances.
Nothing too special, but okish and consistent.

Regarding defending, in the last 3 matches, against Dortmund, Atletico and Mallorca, Rakitic has made:
4 tackles
6 interceptions
4 clearances
2 blocks
=16 defensive interventions in total.

Arthur, who played as a CM till now has:
8 tackles
3 interceptions
3 clearances
0 blocks
= 14 interventions in his whole season in La liga till now (9 matches)

Rakitic started a season with 0 tackles and interceptions per match.
With more playing time, his numbers have really improved.
Also, in the last 300-ish minutes, he added 2 assists.

People expected that we will crash in December.
Yet, with a return to a lineup similar to the last two seasons, we are playing similar as back then.

More consistent, less chaotic, more consistent results.


So you want to settle for the 'safe' La Liga with Rakitic and Busquets while acknowledging they have NO shot in the CL (we've already seen them fail twice v Roma and Liverpool).

Meanwhile, Arthur and FDJ could also win us La Liga (since Messi is the one actually winning it, midfield doesn't matter) and they may be a gamble in the CL that either pays off or it doesn't. We don't know because we haven't seen them in the CL KO stage together yet.

Let me summarize you:

You want a 'safe' La Liga while accepting a CL humiliation with a 30+ midfield with no legs.

No wonder you love EV and the board, lmao. I don't want to hear you talk about CL again. Only ambitious teams deserve CL. And you're essentially arguing for the opposite.

Also makes sense why you like Juve, Atletico, and Chelsea. CL losers who've won 3 in 13 finals combined.

EDIT: And yet another gem of hypocrisy:

Writing about how we don't run like Pool and then wanting a midfield fo 30+ geriatrics. LMAO.
 
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BBZ8800

Senior Member
Well, its just lazy. And I wouldnt necessarily put our turn of results/performances solely on him. He was decent at best (and quite good yesterday). Our team as a whole looks much sharper. Individually Arthur and Rakitic are like night and day - one plays it safe and the other throws himself where it hurts (and this aint Rakitic - just rewatch Atletico).

It is not about ONLY him.
It has a lot to do with go back to lineup which worked.

This lineup from the last few years is good, but not perfect.
It will NOT win a CL.
But it will win La Ligas easily and win group stage easily.

Why?
Because we have proven world class players.
But who also played in our system for years.
They know our mechanisms plus they have a strong chemistry.

We played last season with Alba-Lenglet-Pique-Bop, Busi-Raki-Vidal/Arthur, Cou/Dembele-Suarez-Messi.
Then this season, due to a pressure, EV tried some new things.
Alena, Bob in midfield, Frenkie-Arthur duo, Semedo as a starting RB, Griezz as a new guy.
And then imagine a team with: new RB Semedo, new guy Frenkie paired with Arthur who is also a semi-new guy. In attack Griezz as a new guy.

Of course that it was chaotic, weird and with holes on 100s of areas in attack, midfield and defense.
And what happened in the last few matches?
1. Semedo got injured and we got Bob back as a starting RN
2. Rakitic is back as a babysitter CM
3. Busi-Rakitic duo paired with RB Bob and Messi in attack is back.

Now imagine a right side of our attack:
Semedo-Arthur-Messi
Or: Bob-Busi-Raki-Messi

What do you think, which combination has more understanding and chemistry?
Raki knows where to run to cover for Messi.
Messi knows where Bob will run.
Bob knows when to cover for Raki and how to help him.
Busi knows how to cover and help to Messi, Raki and Bob.

In this lineup, the only new guy in midfield is Frenkie, and now he is surrounded with seniors who can help him.

Even if Arthur is a better player 1 vs 1 than Rakitic (which is also doubtful), it doesn't mean that a team will play better with that guy who is better on a paper.
Remember Ibrahimovic.
An awesome player, but shit for our team.
Messi played way better without him.
A team moved way better without him.

Or remember Pedro.
Coutinho or Dembele are surely better individual players than Pedro.
But what do you think: who would fit better tomorrow into our lineup:
Pedro or Coutinho/Dembele?
Pedro would move, run and pass as if he has never left a team.

You guys are underestimating an importance of experience, chemistry, mutual understanding between players.
Someone could reply: well, new guys will also develop that chemistry.
True.
Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

In this moment, a good old, proven lineup consisted of Club De Amigos still clicks better on a field than hipster lineups with Frenkie-Arthur CM duo or Griezmann as a NO9 instead of Suarez.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
It is not about ONLY him.
It has a lot to do with go back to lineup which worked.

This lineup from the last few years is good, but not perfect.
It will NOT win a CL.
But it will win La Ligas easily and win group stage easily.

Why?
Because we have proven world class players.
But who also played in our system for years.
They know our mechanisms plus they have a strong chemistry.

We played last season with Alba-Lenglet-Pique-Bop, Busi-Raki-Vidal/Arthur, Cou/Dembele-Suarez-Messi.
Then this season, due to a pressure, EV tried some new things.
Alena, Bob in midfield, Frenkie-Arthur duo, Semedo as a starting RB, Griezz as a new guy.
And then imagine a team with: new RB Semedo, new guy Frenkie paired with Arthur who is also a semi-new guy. In attack Griezz as a new guy.

Of course that it was chaotic, weird and with holes on 100s of areas in attack, midfield and defense.
And what happened in the last few matches?
1. Semedo got injured and we got Bob back as a starting RN
2. Rakitic is back as a babysitter CM
3. Busi-Rakitic duo paired with RB Bob and Messi in attack is back.

Now imagine a right side of our attack:
Semedo-Arthur-Messi
Or: Bob-Busi-Raki-Messi

What do you think, which combination has more understanding and chemistry?
Raki knows where to run to cover for Messi.
Messi knows where Bob will run.
Bob knows when to cover for Raki and how to help him.
Busi knows how to cover and help to Messi, Raki and Bob.

In this lineup, the only new guy in midfield is Frenkie, and now he is surrounded with seniors who can help him.

Even if Arthur is a better player 1 vs 1 than Rakitic (which is also doubtful), it doesn't mean that a team will play better with that guy who is better on a paper.
Remember Ibrahimovic.
An awesome player, but shit for our team.
Messi played way better without him.
A team moved way better without him.

Or remember Pedro.
Coutinho or Dembele are surely better individual players than Pedro.
But what do you think: who would fit better tomorrow into our lineup:
Pedro or Coutinho/Dembele?
Pedro would move, run and pass as if he has never left a team.

You guys are underestimating an importance of experience, chemistry, mutual understanding between players.
Someone could reply: well, new guys will also develop that chemistry.
True.
Maybe they will, maybe they won't.

In this moment, a good old, proven lineup consisted of Club De Amigos still clicks better on a field than hipster lineups with Frenkie-Arthur CM duo or Griezmann as a NO9 instead of Suarez.

In this moment, Messi is performing way better than Messi earlier in the season. That's 90% of the difference. Rest is Suarez and Griezo coming to life, lol.

Funny thing is you know that but aim to distort the cause and effect.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
So you want to settle for the 'safe' La Liga with Rakitic and Busquets while acknowledging they have NO shot in the CL (we've already seen them fail twice v Roma and Liverpool).

Meanwhile, Arthur and FDJ could also win us La Liga (since Messi is the one actually winning it, midfield doesn't matter) and they may be a gamble in the CL that either pays off or it doesn't. We don't know because we haven't seen them in the CL KO stage together yet.

Let me summarize you:

You want a 'safe' La Liga while accepting a CL humiliation with a 30+ midfield with no legs.

No wonder you love EV and the board, lmao. I don't want to hear you talk about CL again. Only ambitious teams deserve CL. And you're essentially arguing for the opposite.

Also makes sense why you like Juve, Atletico, and Chelsea. CL losers who've won 3 in 13 finals combined.

EDIT: And yet another gem of hypocrisy:

Writing about how we don't run like Pool and then wanting a midfield fo 30+ geriatrics. LMAO.

There is one problem with your post.
Yes, we agree:
1. Raki-Busi-Suarez-Bob will win LA Liga
2. they will play 7/10 or 8/10 good.
Not perfect but good enough.
3. also, they probably won't win a CL.

Here is a problem:
You guys always assume: we could win La Liga with any other lineup.
But: how come that before Leganes matche when EV returned to Busi-Raki-Bob-Messi-Suarez, we had 3 wins out of 8 away matches this season?
1. we were a total shit away this season, unlike in first 2 EV's seasons with Busi-Raki
2. we were on a verge of being KOd in group stage of a CL, the first time since 2000s.
3. we weren't that good on the eye test either

So, you don't have any proofs that we could win La Liga with hipster lineups.
We don't know what would happen.
All that we know is that we had the worst start to a season since 2000s, right?
And we were on a verge of being KOd in a group stage?
Luckily, EV returned to basics.

Look, I am for changes.
But only if they are bringing results.

You know my opinion: I don't think that Frenkie-Arthur will work longterm, so why even bother with forcing them now and losing La Ligas?

The difference is:
You believe: Frenkie-Arthur (Semedo, etc) are the answer: we just need to give them lots of time.
If they will deliver right away=awesome.
If they won't deliver right away, the problem is NOT in THEM, but obviously on EV, as always.
So, basically, you would be ok with us losing this season, since it can't be on a bad chemistry between some players or their profiles being a bad match up.
Then, you would sack a coach and see how would they play with a new guy.
If we would have Koeman, and if that duo would still play meh, you would say: Koeman is EV no2, since again=it can't be on Frenkie-Arthur combo, it HAS to be something else.

For me:
Well, that duo had a chance and it isn't convincing.
They are too similar with similar virtues and flaws, which I have explained lots of times:
They both suck in attack.
They are both good in bringing the ball from deep.
And both of them are too funky in defense.
Arthur can't play defense more or less, and Frenkie ventures into the attack.
So, no matter how you pair those two, defense will suck and attack will be lethal.
If you bench Arthur and play Alena or a CAM, defense will still suck, but at least the attack will be better.
if you bench Arthur and play Rakitic, then the attack will suck (even though we will have chemistry and some automatism in attack), and at least defense will be better and more balanced.

To some extent, playing Frenkie and Arthur together is like playing Messi and Griezmann in the same area.
Or when we played Iniesta and Coutinho on the same side.
Iniesta always clicked better with Rakitic than with Cou or Rafinha because they are too similar.

Also, I have asked you guys 100s of times: write your own lineup with Frenkie and Arthur.
No matter what you do, we will be flawed and all over the place.
Yet you will reply: you don't understand the importance of a good coach.
That magician will fix those problems and make those two compatible to each other.
I doubt it.
The same as how Messi, Dybala and Griezz won't be compatible.
Or the second alibi answer: they could be similar to Xavi and Iniesta.
Again, those were the 2 best midfielders ever.
Iniesta was a dribbler and a natural guy with vision and playmaking.
And Xavi was good in all areas.
And then you have Arthur-Frenkie, a midfield duo for Barca where none of them is natural and comfortable in attacking phase.
And they both have issues in defending.

But in your heads, that is a duo for the next 10 years, and everything else is broken except that duo.

Frenkie will be here for long.
About Arthur, feel free to quote me: I don't see him in the future.
He will always be on a verge of a starter/squad player.

So, we have different point of view:
1. you think that with new players, you are moving into a right directions, and that you are improving our team
2. I think: that a new duo is even worse than Busi-Raki. They already click bad, and there isn't too much hope that they will click better in the future if you take their set of skills into a consideration.
For me, you are basically investing time and hope into something which isn't working even now nor will work in the future.
But, you have set your hopes in your head that it is a perfect duo for the future and it will take a long time to open your eyes and have less anger towards a manager who has realized that way before you.
 

BBZ8800

Senior Member
In this moment, Messi is performing way better than Messi earlier in the season. That's 90% of the difference. Rest is Suarez and Griezo coming to life, lol.

Funny thing is you know that but aim to distort the cause and effect.

He is performing better because Roberto is moving better in attack, leaving more options to Messi to pass.
Also, when Bob drags away the defenders, Messi has more room once when he receives a pass from Bob.
Also, Raki overlaps with Messi sometimes and he is doing that for 6 years, so when Raki moves forward, he is dragging away another defender (Bob also) and Messi himself has more room, plus, Griezz or Suarez also have less defenders on their backs since Raki and Bob has 2 guys on their backs, if Messi will sent them flying 1 vs 1 towards a goal.

Now add Semedo into maths, the most clueless RB in a history of Barca.
And then, for example, Arthur instead of Raki, where Arthur isn't moving naturally in the attack since he is not an attacker (while Raki was a CAM-FC in early 20s and his attacking movement into space and drawing away the defenders is more natural to him).
Now, imagine Messi with Semedo and Arthur around him, or Bob-Raki around him. Where will Messi have more options and more space?
Also, add that not only Raki&Bob move better but Messi also KNOWS where will they move.
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
He is performing better because Roberto is moving better in attack, leaving more options to Messi to pass.
Also, when Bob drags away the defenders, Messi has more room once when he receives a pass from Bob.
Also, Raki overlaps with Messi sometimes and he is doing that for 6 years, so when Raki moves forward, he is dragging away another defender (Bob also) and Messi himself has more room, plus, Griezz or Suarez also have less defenders on their backs since Raki and Bob has 2 guys on their backs, if Messi will sent them flying 1 vs 1 towards a goal.

Now add Semedo into maths, the most clueless RB in a history of Barca.
And then, for example, Arthur instead of Raki, where Arthur isn't moving naturally in the attack since he is not an attacker (while Raki was a CAM-FC in early 20s and his attacking movement into space and drawing away the defenders is more natural to him).
Now, imagine Messi with Semedo and Arthur around him, or Bob-Raki around him. Where will Messi have more options and more space?
Also, add that not only Raki&Bob move better but Messi also KNOWS where will they move.

You're trying to attribute Messi's better performance to Raki and Bob?

You do realize that they weren't pinging through balls or assists to Messi's goals v Dortmund, AM, and especially Mallorca.

Forget causation. There's not even correlation.

I have a simpler explanation that's held true for the last 10-15 years, no matter who the other players are. When Messi's on fire like he is right now we can beat almost anybody. When he isn't, we get humiliated.
 

mc_lovin

Senior Member
Nothing to do with the "hipster" midfield xD

Its a simle question: whos the better player? The rest (automatisms, movement etc) is down to coaching and experience. Just playing Rakitic because hes been here for ages is incredibly lazy. And sounds exactly like something Valverde would do. You may have a different opinion, which can be right, but you dont need to invent and twist stats and observations. Arthur-Frenkie as a CM duo was barely tried, especially with Messi, Griezmann and Suarez getting into form (Roberto as well, who is a much better attacker than Semedo as you said). No need to prematurely dismiss the duo.

We will see soon enough who is right (not that discussing with you is in any kind rewarding).
 

KingLeo10

Senior Member
statistics never seen ? :lol:

It's like some Barca 'fans' are inviting a 5th successive CL humiliation with Busquets and Rakitic midfield duo.

AM, Juventus, Roma, Pool. I'll even throw in PSG 4-0 in there.

Unbelieveable level of self-masochism and cuckery at display, dawg. :lol:
 

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
Unbelievable.

We're almost in 2020 and there is one guy still trying to claim Rakitic is some sort of a defensive beast that solidifies our team.

As for Sergi Roberto then honestly our attack flows better with him. He will cost us big defensively against great teams in the CL though.

You could say both Roberto and Semedo are mediocre for Barca if they want to win the CL again. One is a total liability against the big dogs defensively while the other guy keep passing the ball backwards like Rakitic and still hasn't figured out the art of looking up while passing or crossing the ball. Makes Jordi Alba look like Andy Robertson at times.
 
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Rory

Senior Member
All our poor results this year:

Bilbao 1-0 Barcelona, midfield of Roberto, Frenkie, Aleña (rakitic sub at 45min mark).

Osasuna 2-2 Barcelona, midfield 3 of roberto, busi and Frenkie. Arthur subbed in 53 mins, scores, nearly sets up another, frenkie taken off min 82.

Granada 2-0 Barcelona, midfield 3 of Rakitic, Frenkie, Roberto (raki subbed off at 60 min).

Levante 3-1 Barcelona, midfield 3 of Arthur, Frenkie, Vidal. Arthur vidal subbed off at 65min (approx).

Barcelona 0-0 Slavia Prague, midfield pivot of busi and Frenkie with vidal as an attacking mid, Rakitic subbed on for busi at 68min.

How you can look at those poor results with the lineups and substitutes and conclude it's Arthur-Frenkie's fault is like me saying 2+2 = red. They haven't played with each other a long enough time to say they're going to be amazing together or not. Really read what I've said there, what it's doing is taking a moderate level-headed view of things, not "ARTHUR-FRENKIE = XAVI-INIESTA" but also not "ARTHUR-FRENKIE = dogshit!" opinions between these two are actually extremely common here. Frenkie was the best midfielder in the champions league last year and Arthur was the best midfielder at the copa america last year, that is not nothing. "But they were in a system that really benefited them". Yes, yes they were and one became the best midfielder in the champions league, the other for BRAZIL, we should be doing everything we can to try and push these two and create a system that benefits them again. If that is incompatible so be it but we have not even nearly tried to create a decent system for them and they've still done an ok job.
 

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