Ivan Rakitić
- Thread starter Barcaman
- Start date
You clearly don't agree with the way he views football and that is obviously fine. The point of a forum is to foster discussion between fans with different perspectives. I don't mind a few surface level insults being thrown around and although you have usually kept the debates fairly civil the same cannot be said about other users.
If you find a user is deliberately being obtuse or is not worth engaging in a debate with simply end the conversation. It is that easy. Your last sentence about BBZ "getting heat for nothing else than agenda driven nonsense backed with flimsy pseudo-arguments" is patently false and pages upon pages of disgusting vitriol that has no place on a football forum can be pulled up to prove it. I honestly cannot believe some of the utter shite replies and meltdowns I am reading every time he makes a post. It has only gotten really bad the past month or two. Yet the lad still continues to post and is still reasonably polite.
This has gone far beyond just him being "called up" for his "half baked agenda-driven stats." I know you are better than the generic #ValverdeOut spastic. These blokes surely won't listen to me, the least you could do is call these vermin out when they cross the line. Their behaviour should not be overlooked just because they support the popular narratives on the forum.
The quality of discussion here will only continue to further degrade the longer this rubbish continues. Every new user that does not agree with all the consensus football opinions of the board will be immediately branded as a "troll, Bartomeu paid shill, alt-account" and quickly asked to be banned by a moderator. Only the few with a thick enough skin will continue posting.
Guess it does not matter though as long as the same group of established users are able to sit on their perch while ideologically jerking each other off in a circle. Just silence any dissenters by the way of mob rule and submission via sheer numbers.
Funnily enough that silent majority (Ursegor, Xtroverto etc) all went into hiding after that Liverpool game? I wonder why
This bollocks is exactly what I am referring to. How often does he actually engage in a proper footy discussion? Every post of his seems to be shaming other users. Muppet of a poster.
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messi2140
6racies Xavi
Error 404: self-awareness not found.
Potroh
New member
Hmmmm....
I've read your msg, just as I read all of them, and I'm still thinking.
Not about the disputable content or factual content, but the essential notion.
I've criticized you way too much, I do admit. I criticized you when I shouldn't have, I also admit that.
But it was nothing personal, it was about football. Not about your general or sociological views, but simply football.
Football, because I've sent my entire, often miserable life with this game, lived through great personal successes and horrible periods, but one thing remained at the end: the game which is beautiful and probably it was worth to dedicate a lifetime for it.
So, for me personally, one cardinal question remains, if I've been your critique for some years anyway: which "tribe" do I belong to? At least according to your distinction.
My personal problem is that I can't give an answer to that.
I left this forum for two month, because it was really nasty and disgusting here. Not for me, very few ever insulted me in person (you have been definitely one of them, by repeatably questioning my identity, my past and my small personal dedication to the club, but it doesn't matter).
I took a brake because the filth and purulence started to fill the entire forum, people did nothing else but bitingly bashing the players of their own favorite team.
Okay, I sort of started posting a bit again, maybe I will retreat once again, who knows, but I'm still unaware of my "tribe".
Maybe I'm also a "low IQ" guy, just as you have alone and single-underhandedly invented and introduced that extremely harmful assay here, but still, even if I'm stupid, I do not feel to be belonging to any tribe, anywhere, especially here.
All I usually do, or try to do, is to defend the football players, generally, without specific names, for the simple reason that I used to be one of them and I think that bashing them, clapping them with all possible attributes are nasty, baseless and hurting. That's all.
Are there Barca players, who would actually DESERVE having been drolled, flouted, regardless how bad they play or perform? I doubt that. Seriously.
Why? Because criticizing a footballer is not the same phenomenon as bashing on him, and specially not questioning his mental abilities!
Football players are in 98% of cases uneducated, simple, even primitive humans, with a gift to control a ball. The game is a collective effort, and it is complicated enough with tactics, setups, and another million things in the actual game-play, NOT to go lower than the lowest standards and step into the private sphere or personalities of the players.
It's unfair, it's primitive in itself, and very very questionable if the silly accusations are simply based on idiotic press articles, gossips or on other forum messages by frustrated assholes.
When you are a spectator in a stadium, it is often acceptable to shout out, to show off emotions, to jump if something interesting, nice or bad thing happens on the pitch, these are instant sentiences. But AFTER a given game, when emotions should have calmed, videos could be watched and replayed, there is no place for vehemency. It's the time for calm and objective analysis.
Are you personally able to analyze things, games (even going back to many years)? Yes you are.
Are you personally guilty in this forum to steer up emotions, specifically against some players? Yes you are.
Is it enough to construe your frequent negative destructibility by just saying you are provoking others or having a sociological test on the small community? No. You have done much more than that.
Are your footballing views highly biased towards defensive play, tall players, Rakitic or towards a bad coach who essentially ruined the typical Barca play? Yes they are.
The ball is on your half now. You have to decide if your personal endearment towards the possible dullest English-mid-team football and its player-characters are the notions you wish to disseminate in this forum, or you could also be able to make some compromises regarding your views, which ARE DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO THE BARCA FOOTBALLING PHILOSOPHY.
And I'm still trying to identify myself with one of the "tribes"... Or perhaps I'm just a Robinson Crusoe still looking for his friend Friday...
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You took a sarcastic quote from another user out of context and put it in your signature in an attempt humiliate him.
Messi983 is one of the most level-headed posters on the forum and his general knowledge of La Liga is unrivalled.
He has forgotten more about football than you will ever know and not one of your 4400 posts comes close to rivalling the quality of anything the "Valverde cheerleader" has written.
Yet you shamelessly insult the lad every time you post.
I feel ashamed for you.
Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor
Banned
messi2140
6racies Xavi
I guess his post about Valverde having one "bad" night was also one of his many sarcastic posts.
I had no idea that level-headed meant supporting mediocrity , but I guess you learn something new everyday
Is it okay for you if I "insult" him in the Dembele thread ?
Oh boy , how can I sleep today knowing that Tackle feels ashamed about me.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
Imo, your footballing views and ideas regarding Barca are leaning towards the "majority tribe".
Neymar is good, Raki is bad, beautiful play is a key, EV is bad, roughly.
But since you are older, you distanced yourself in terms of tribes.
You aren't exactly in a tribe like guys whom I have mentioned.
Ideologically you are leaning towards that tribe, but in actions=you are a loner without tribes.
Even though you are triggered more often by posts from me and guys "from my tribe" since they have different footballing ideas than you.
No, you are a high IQ.
I mean, even guys like Andres, Serghei, DonAk and lots of others with whom I don't agree are high IQ guys, we just share different views on football and we are fighting due to being animals in enemy tribes.
Regarding Dembele's IQ, since I am the first guy who started to mention that he is dumb and low IQ (which was proven to be true in the end).
I see that you are offended with that.
Let's not get too deep and into circles with that.
For me, IQ is a skill.
If Busi is slow, if Raki has slow hips and bad passes, if Suarez is old and fat, what is wrong with saying that Dembele isn't the brightest guy in the world and that due to THAT he will struggle in tactical improvement, reading the game and similar.
Ok, you were a coach and you have a different relationship with players.
I really don't know what more to say about this: I don't mean anything bad. IQ is just a skill which some players lack. The same as pace, technique, bravery and similar.
These next two quotes are more or less the same, so I will reply below:
I have told my story a few times.
Some people are fans of Barca because they love Messi.
Some people are fans of Barca since Pep's years.
Some are fans of Barca because they were born in Catalonia, so they "have" to support Barca no matter what.
Other guys have some random reasons.
In late 80s, when I was like 7, I was at my grandpa's home in Zagreb, capital of Croatia.
I didn't know too much about football, except kicking the ball and running with my friends at school.
My grandpa told me one day (and he was holding a nice chocolate in his hands): Hey, Bbz, do you want a chocolate?
I ran to him and said: yeeessss!!
He said: Wait... and he has put the chocolate behind his back (as if he won't give it to me).
He continued: I will give you a chocolate ONLY if you promise me that you will be a fan of Dinamo Zagreb forever.
I was 7 years old. I wanted a chocolate, and since my grandpa loved Dinamo, it sounded like a good deal. If he likes that club, it must be a good club, isn't it?
I said: yes.
He gave me a chocolate, and now 30 years later, I am still a fan of Dinamo in my domestic country.
I still remember that day like it was yesterday.
So, I am not a fan of Dinamo because they play nice, attacking or who knows what.
I am their fan because my grandpa tricked me aged 7. And that's the whole truth.
There aren't any emotional or deeper reasons behind me and Dinamo.
Regarding international club football, I remember first watching Champions cup in 1989 or something like that.
It was semis of a CL Milan:Real. It ended 5:0 for Milan with Gullit and Van Basten scoring goals.
Since I was a kid and I didn't watch too much football before that, in my head I had only one thought:
Omg, this AC Milan club is the best club in the world and Van Basten and Gullit are 2 best players in the world!
I will be a fan of AC Milan from now on, since THEY ARE THE BEST!
You see, imo, when you are a kid, it is all random.
The team which is the best in the days when you are a kid will leave the biggest mark on you and your development.
So, aged 8-12, I was a fan of Ac Milan.
Then, iirc in 1993, I watched a game with my dad, it was Barca
orto or someone in a CL semis at Camp Nou.Hristo Stoichkov scored 2 goals.
And my idea again was: omg, he is the best player in the world!
From that night, my 2 clubs were Barca and Milan.
I don't know WHY or HOW, but for some reason: Barca became a number 1, and Milan my 2nd beloved club.
And when Barca and Milan played in a CL finals of 1994, I was cheering for Barca.
And we lost heavily 0:4.
Now, you see, imo, this is all connected with psychology, our development and moments in life which make deep impressions on us.
Milan:Barca was my first Barca's CL final, and I was so sad that night.
But even worse, I was kinda mad at our team, because we were so outplayed, so outrun and humiliated.
The whole match looked as if 11 boys are playing vs 11 men.
So, you see, my first footballing lesson as a kid was: Ac Milan plays serious, tactical, physical, cautious and smart football.
While Barca plays overly attacking, naive and with too light players.
And my footballing lesson from that night was: when a team like Milan and Barca meet=Milan will outplay them as rookies.
This is what all neutral commentators and papers were saying in those days and that left huge scars on me.
So, Barca remained my No1 club, but from that night, those words from press and commentators on my Tv, always remained in my head: Barca played too attacking, Barca played too naive, Barca couldn't cope physically with AC Milan's players.
And then, what is worse: in upcoming years in late 90s, Barca were KO'd 3 times in a group stage of a CL in extremely naive ways (losing to teams like Dynamo Kiev, Newcastle, Psv, Fenerbahce, Leeds), a total disgrace.
Even worse, in those days Seria A was considered as NBA of football. And those teams played both technical, tactical and had a mix of technique&physique.
While Barca was a team of naive overly attacking physically light players=who more or less, lose EVERY SINGLE time when they face more serious teams like Milan and Juve.
So, you see, during my teen years, Barca (even though my favorite club) was a symbol of mockery in Europe.
Something like Psg or Arsenal in recent years: a club for whom you know that no matter what they will do, they will eventually lose in the end, by more or less anyone.
So, you see, from 1993 till 2006, I had to wait 14 (!!) years for Barca to win a CL.
And during those 14 years, my main idea (and how press and random footballers and commentators were saying)=Barca's football is just not good enough for European titles.
So, you see, Barca was an example of a club who is just not good enough for Europe.
And in those years, we played:
1. very beautiful
2. very attacking
3. bad in defense
4. with very light players (Sergi, Albert Ferrer, Guardiola, Xavi, Frank De Boer, Zenden, Overmars, Saviola etc).
So, for 14 years I had to wait for Barca "to grow" up and to add some muscles into a team, to add a slightly more defensive approach and to play wiser.
And Rijkaard has finally did it in 2006'.
So, during those 14 years, we have always played "Barca's way", and we were an ultimate shit in terms of a CL results in those years.
And the FIRST time when a coach (Rijkaard) has actually moved away from Barca's way with playing 2 workhorses in Edmilson/Van Bommel/Motta instead of a classical Deco-Xavi-Iniesta and similar combinations=we won a CL.
Plus, that was the first time ever that Barca played in an Italian way in a CL, playing cautiously and smart.
That year, we won 2:1 against Chelsea in 1/8 in the first leg, and 1:0 at San Siro vs Milan in semis. And in both 2nd legs, at home, we played very cautiously and unlike Barca.
We didn't attack too much, we were keeping the ball in an Italian way and playing for a score, not for beauty.
So, you see, during my history as Barca's fan:
1. light players, playing too attacking, playing too naive and too emotional=was a symbol of failures for 14 years in a row
2. and what you guys call: English/Italian/defensive football=was the only season when we have actually won a CL.
After 2006, Rijkaard sold Van Bommel. Xavi was back after a knee injury and we returned to Xavi-Deco (Barca's DNA light midfield).
We returned to Barca's DNA football and were eaten alive by Liverpool and Man Utd in 2007 and 2008, as always.
So, in my first 16 years of watching Barca, from 1993-2008:
We played 15 times in Barca's way=ended as a disaster every single time.
Played only once in a more cautious/defensive/pragmatic way=won a CL.
And then you have 4 Pep's years, where probably 90% of fans here started to watch Barca.
For those guys, Pep's football, light players, attacking like crazy=is Barca's DNA, it is "who we are" and the way to go.
Yet, for me, Pep's 4 years are an anomaly in which he was able to turn a style which is otherwise a losing style=into a winning style for 3 years, ONLY because he had 3 best players ever in Messi, Xavi, Iniesta.
For me: years 1993-2005 and years after Pep=are a real state of Barca's DNA football. That style is usually NOT good enough and we will more or less always lose in naive and in unlucky ways against more all-rounded teams.
So, you see, for me: Pep's football was an anomaly due to individually TOO good players, and that was the only moment ever for Spain and Barca that their type of football worked.
For 90% of fans here, Pep's football left a huge impact and for them=it is a way to go, and everything else is a mistake.
More or less, I hope you will understand my "thoughts" more now after this story and why I always lean towards more physique, more defense, more cautious approach etc.
Also, regarding EV, since I had 14 years of misery from 1993-2006, to me our last 2 years are really not a big deal.
My expectations are not that high.
This is why I often say: I still didn't see any evidences that our "Barca's DNA" system is a winning system once when you remove Messi (and Mr. TikiTaka himself: Xavi).
In 90s and 00s without Messi, we couldn't win anything with our style.
Spain couldn't win anything for 100 years without Xavi.
Then: BOTH barca and Spain were winning from 2008-2012.
Then Xavi was gone:
Barca couldn't win it anymore (ok, except in 2015, where we, ironically, again won it when we moved away from our style and played more defensively, pragmatic, counterattacking and with giving away possession under Lucho).
Pep, the same story. 6 CL attempts after Barca with his system (without Xavi and Messi to turn that system into a winning system)=a horrible defeat after defeat, quite similar to Barca's defeats in 90s.
** EdmondDantes, you see that this story don't have too much with Rakitic.
More with us losing for 14 years from Italian type of players, while we had 3 players like Arthur/Puig in a field and we were always eaten alive (except during 3 Pep's years where it worked for a short period).
Catalinutz will get angry for me posting the same video again, but this is match which formed my opinion and left 100s of scars.
Also, the whole 90s and early 00s, looked exactly the same as that match: always naive, too attacking, lost in defense, weak in the air, losing majority all over the field to physically stronger (and still technically decent) teams.
I could poke and say: we didn't even have EV and Rakitic in 90s and 00s, yet we were always losing in exactly the same way:
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serghei
Senior Member
Last thing I want is for BBZ to stop posting due to bad atmosphere in the forum. But you get a feeling that no matter what you post in response, it just flies through him as he continues to make the same claims, completely refusing to tackle any kind of counter-argument someone brings up. Leaving aside the parts that might or might not be interpreted as insults (debatable anyway if low tactical knowledge can be called an insult), there are some really high quality comments that touch the subjects he brings up. And yet he takes in nothing from them.
My problem is he refuses to enter some debates which shake his way of viewing football in general. Because of this he doesn't develop in this area. Which is why his posts are very repetitive in nature.
I see this forum as a platform where you can learn new things from others, and also share things with others who maybe don't know them as well too. For example in my case, I've learned a lot of background info of Barcelona's history, fans, political scene at the club, former legends (from DonAK, BBZ etc). Things which have helped me understand some aspects better. On the other hand, I share a lot more tactical stuff than I learn here (so low take in, higher input). Most of the things I learn to develop myself in this area are outside sources to this forum, because this forum is very low on tactical aspects. Users aren't as passionate to talk about why some things happen on the field, and prefer to simply pin everything down to form, player quality, age.
For others it can be the opposite. They learn fewer things in some areas, because they already know them better than me, but they learn some new stuff in the tactical field, in terms of philosophy of possession game etc. It's different.
In my opinion, from the senior users here, BBZ has the lowest percentage of gained insight through what everyone else posts, and the highest percentage of input. Like he puts up the most content, and assimilates the lowest amount of good ideas thrown around here. Other posters gain things, and share things in close enough ratios. BBZ puts up huge posts and takes in almost nothing.
My problem is he refuses to enter some debates which shake his way of viewing football in general. Because of this he doesn't develop in this area. Which is why his posts are very repetitive in nature.
I see this forum as a platform where you can learn new things from others, and also share things with others who maybe don't know them as well too. For example in my case, I've learned a lot of background info of Barcelona's history, fans, political scene at the club, former legends (from DonAK, BBZ etc). Things which have helped me understand some aspects better. On the other hand, I share a lot more tactical stuff than I learn here (so low take in, higher input). Most of the things I learn to develop myself in this area are outside sources to this forum, because this forum is very low on tactical aspects. Users aren't as passionate to talk about why some things happen on the field, and prefer to simply pin everything down to form, player quality, age.
For others it can be the opposite. They learn fewer things in some areas, because they already know them better than me, but they learn some new stuff in the tactical field, in terms of philosophy of possession game etc. It's different.
In my opinion, from the senior users here, BBZ has the lowest percentage of gained insight through what everyone else posts, and the highest percentage of input. Like he puts up the most content, and assimilates the lowest amount of good ideas thrown around here. Other posters gain things, and share things in close enough ratios. BBZ puts up huge posts and takes in almost nothing.
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Raketa10
Senior Member
I can't believe people are still shitting on him even when he is benched. Unbelievable stuff! 
I don't agree that BBZ is refusing a debate. Majority of fans here just tend to write "Rakitic is shit" and "Arthur is a world class". Just for once some of you should elaborate your opinion.
Don't get me wrong I love Raki but as I said last summer it's time to go. He should have left and he will probably leave this winter. Posting all of the time ONE pick from Anfield and writing "PAIN" or similar bullshit bellow is childish and proves nothing except that opinion of those people is biased. When you tend to spit on someone and praise someone else provide some numbers so all of us can see how that other player is superior to Rakitic or vice versa.
In the end BBZ is basically only guy here who tends to explain his opinion. As I said before we can agree or disagree with him but at least he tries to elaborate his opinion. I also can't believe this forum is able to single out one player as a main reason for last seasons debacle against Lpool when literally all players were HORRIBLE!
I respect different opinions and all of you should but what I don't respect are double standards for some players regardless of the fact if they were raised in La Masia or not.
I don't agree that BBZ is refusing a debate. Majority of fans here just tend to write "Rakitic is shit" and "Arthur is a world class". Just for once some of you should elaborate your opinion. Don't get me wrong I love Raki but as I said last summer it's time to go. He should have left and he will probably leave this winter. Posting all of the time ONE pick from Anfield and writing "PAIN" or similar bullshit bellow is childish and proves nothing except that opinion of those people is biased. When you tend to spit on someone and praise someone else provide some numbers so all of us can see how that other player is superior to Rakitic or vice versa.
In the end BBZ is basically only guy here who tends to explain his opinion. As I said before we can agree or disagree with him but at least he tries to elaborate his opinion. I also can't believe this forum is able to single out one player as a main reason for last seasons debacle against Lpool when literally all players were HORRIBLE!
I respect different opinions and all of you should but what I don't respect are double standards for some players regardless of the fact if they were raised in La Masia or not.
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serghei
Senior Member
Far from it.
BBZ is the guy who makes the most effort to explain his opinion. That I would agree with.
The worst were the manager and the midfield in that game. Barcelona's way of playing is build on the midfield having the ability to hold off the opponent and fight to have the initiative in the game. The manager set us up in a way that denied us that, through the players and the tactics he used in the game.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
I can't believe people are still shitting on him even when he is benched. Unbelievable stuff!
Don't get me wrong I love Raki but as I said last summer it's time to go. He should have left and he will probably leave this winter. Posting all of the time ONE pick from Anfield and writing "PAIN" or similar bullshit bellow is childish and proves nothing except that opinion of those people is biased. When you tend to spit on someone and praise someone else provide some numbers so all of us can see how that other player is superior to Rakitic or vice versa.
In the end BBZ is basically only guy here who tends to explain his opinion. As I said before we can agree or disagree with him but at least he tries to elaborate his opinion. In the end I can't believe this forum is able to single out one player as a main reason for last season debacle against Lpool when literally all players were HORRIBLE!
Lately I also agree that Raki's time here is gone.
Even yesterday for Croatia, it was clear that his legs are gone and that a team played move fluent when he didn't play.
In terms of movement, it seems that his level dropped even more compared to a last season (which is expected, since he is old and declining quite fast).
Imo, there isn't too much to discuss at all about this topic.
Except revisionism.
If he is finished today, that doesn't mean that he was always shit (and pain) for Barca, especially considering that our other midfield options were 35 years old Xavi, Arda, Denis, Gomes, Samper, Coutinho, Paulinho and similar.
Rakitic was the best player we had in a bad situation before Arthur joined. People are allowed to realise this but still wish Rakitic was not part of the starting xi for those years and currently. Take Manchester United for example. At cb Smalling was probably the best they had for a number of years with the likes of Phil Jones, Lindelof, Rojo and Bailly being bought, does that mean every united fan thought the world of him and wanted him in the first xi? No, they knew he was the best of a bad situation so went along with it begrudgingly. Now Maguire has been bought and is straight in the first xi and Smalling is at Roma.
Last year Arthur was a breath of fresh air for the midfield, for the first time we looked somewhat fluid in the middle of the park, able to absorb pressure and manage games where the opponents had employed a high pressure tactic. His goal scoring threat and defensive work wasn't very good but neither was that of any other midfielder in the team and far from his role in the team anyway. Arthur should have been trusted more and given more opportunities later on in the season instead of Rakitic, and I say Rakitic instead of busquets because busquets is the only half decent dm pivot in the team.
In reality it's not Rakitic's fault that he was played in these games, the manager is incompetent at anything other than his 1 dimensional tactics. He has given his all for the club, that is evident by his injury record, you have to work and have a good attitude to stay fully fit all year and he should be appreciated for that. He deserves to be slated for his interviews and personal views but that's a whole other conversation. Footballing wise, it's clear he's no longer the best of a bad situation. He's probably worth having in the squad to allow for players to rest and for injuries but not much more. With him being 31 and on high wages is he a player worth keeping in the squad? If he keeps his head down and accepts his role yes, if not no.
Last year Arthur was a breath of fresh air for the midfield, for the first time we looked somewhat fluid in the middle of the park, able to absorb pressure and manage games where the opponents had employed a high pressure tactic. His goal scoring threat and defensive work wasn't very good but neither was that of any other midfielder in the team and far from his role in the team anyway. Arthur should have been trusted more and given more opportunities later on in the season instead of Rakitic, and I say Rakitic instead of busquets because busquets is the only half decent dm pivot in the team.
In reality it's not Rakitic's fault that he was played in these games, the manager is incompetent at anything other than his 1 dimensional tactics. He has given his all for the club, that is evident by his injury record, you have to work and have a good attitude to stay fully fit all year and he should be appreciated for that. He deserves to be slated for his interviews and personal views but that's a whole other conversation. Footballing wise, it's clear he's no longer the best of a bad situation. He's probably worth having in the squad to allow for players to rest and for injuries but not much more. With him being 31 and on high wages is he a player worth keeping in the squad? If he keeps his head down and accepts his role yes, if not no.
Raketa10
Senior Member
This!
serghei
Senior Member
Overall he was a good signing. The problem for me is that he should've been made a squad player like he is now a year earlier. And this mistake has cost us a lot.
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