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Thread: Zinedine Zidane

  1. #796
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfe View Post
    Define “biggest”
    There is no definition of biggest. Every individual makes his own definition, based on how they rate the characteristics and achievements of a certain club. It's just the majority's perception that Madrid is the biggest club (mine included) among knowledgeable football fans. Just like it's the majority's perception that peak Pep Barcelona was the greatest team ever in club football history (mine included, as I think Pep's Barcelona is the highest football level any team has reached in the history of the game).

    Neither of this is a fact. Just opinions which are rather easy to argument for.
    Last edited by serghei; 5th May 2018 at 11:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serghei View Post
    There is no definition of biggest. Every individual makes his own definition, based on how they rate the characteristics and achievements of a certain club. It's just the majority's perception that Madrid is the biggest club (mine included) among knowledgeable football fans. Just like it's the majority's perception that peak Pep Barcelona was the greatest team ever in club football history (mine included, as I think Pep's Barcelona is the highest football level any team has reached in the history of the game).

    Neither of this is a fact. Just opinions which are rather easy to argument for.
    Clever response

    The most used definition of "biggest" is the measure that make your own club look best and supports your bias the most. Hat-tip for saying that Real is the biggest club.
    I like the rivalry with Real, because it also makes Barca more hungry, better and more intense fighting for the league/CL etc. Some fans won't even recognize that the rival has achieved anything and try everything to diminish the opponent, but reality is that we live off the other.

    They annoying part, of course, comes when Real sacks benitez because of a barca treble, which he cannot do anything about, or when we are discussing Valverde fired because of Real threepeat which we can do nothing about. Those decisions should be based on what is best for the club and not to show a reaction to the world because the rival is doing great (and therefore sacking benitez/valverde can be good decisions on their own, but shouldn't be caused by the rivals achievements).

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    Someone please define 'definition'. Before that, define 'define'.
    Last edited by DennyCrane; 5th May 2018 at 01:05 PM.
    Alexis Defense League

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoichkov1 View Post
    Zidane just said that "It's more difficult to win la Liga than the Champions, I've said it all my life".
    Valverde haters leaving the premises

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennyCrane View Post
    Someone please define 'definition'. Before that, define 'define'.
    Linguistic relativity and determinism? Many words carry meaning and weight. Others not necessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by serghei
    There is no definition of biggest. Every individual makes his own definition, based on how they rate the characteristics and achievements of a certain club. It's just the majority's perception that Madrid is the biggest club (mine included) among knowledgeable football fans. Just like it's the majority's perception that peak Pep Barcelona was the greatest team ever in club football history (mine included, as I think Pep's Barcelona is the highest football level any team has reached in the history of the game).

    Neither of this is a fact. Just opinions which are rather easy to argument for.
    Quite

    And if there is no common definition and the word means different things to different people, then the word tends to not carry much weight. As it often doesn't in the general conversations with people about football. "biggest club", "greatest player", "best team", "better style", "worse football", "shit game".. I just dislike these sorts of phrases, as I've stated before. Discussion using these leads nowhere. Lazy, imprecise terms for people who like to take shortcuts in discussion and always cause arguments that are longer than they need to be.

    Maybe Madrid is "biggest", maybe not, I don't know and don't care.
    People are boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfe View Post
    Linguistic relativity and determinism? Many words carry meaning and weight. Others not necessarily.



    Quite

    And if there is no common definition and the word means different things to different people, then the word tends to not carry much weight. As it often doesn't in the general conversations with people about football. "biggest club", "greatest player", "best team", "better style", "worse football", "shit game".. I just dislike these sorts of phrases, as I've stated before. Discussion using these leads nowhere. Lazy, imprecise terms for people who like to take shortcuts in discussion and always cause arguments that are longer than they need to be.

    Maybe Madrid is "biggest", maybe not, I don't know and don't care.
    Well, just avoid them, because they're gonna pop-up a lot on football forums. It's the same on every single football forum.

    Good for you if you don't care at all. I sometimes care, I sometimes don't, based on my mood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stoichkov1 View Post
    Zidane just said that "It's more difficult to win la Liga than the Champions, I've said it all my life".
    It's easier to buy 7 games than 38

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    @Wolfe
    Sorry for not replying back, i was pretty busy..

    I read all the post.
    -The short answer is: i disagree. Your argument would have been valid if i had picked arbitrarily a stat that i just fancied.
    I used to hate statistics in football back in the day, because i thought they distort what we see with our own eyes. And that was really true, because until recently we didn't have anything more than the usual package of the crude old day stats (shots, possession, fouls , etc)
    But, the thing is that in recent years this began to change and more sophisticated stats have appeared, with some 'intelligence' built into them.
    The most important cluster of them is the 'X-stats', X meaning eXpected, that show you not the actual stat in question, but the 'expected' one based on the existence or not of conditions for it to materialize. The most important stat of the most important cluster is the 'X-goal' stat that gives you the scoreline of a game based on the conditions created by both teams to score.
    Now, the way it is calculated includes some basic probabilistic principles which have with small variance universal applicability. For example, if a player shoots facing the goal with the opponent GK down, and no other players around, i believe the xG is close to 1, something like 0.95
    Why this? because it almost always goes in. There are some cases of incidents when players have bottled that (and we can watch it in utube compilations) but given how many times it goes in, the statistical probability is around that number.
    Similarly, there are a lot of factors (distance from goal, players in between, angle, set-piece, foot or head, etc) in all those models that come together to create the final sophistication.
    What does all this mean? That it is definitely not an arbitrary stat that i picked. I picked the most accurate stat we have today to depict what the performance of a team in a football game is worth.
    Is it perfectly accurate? No, it is not. I said already that it brackets out the GK for example. But, it is still the most accurate metric we have to measure performance!!
    It has revolutionized not only the way we assess games, seasons, teams. But is also used gradually all the more in scouting by clubs.

    (Quick example: People who were too quick to judge or hadn't done their homework that much, were shouting after the end of last year's EPL that Chelsea was a dream and that Man City will never win the EPL with Pep's tactics.
    A close study of the xG scorelines, though, showed that City had a ratio of -30% total actual goal difference to total xG difference, while Chelsea had a + 70% ratio.
    The bet companies of course knew that, that's why they placed City as top favorite to win the 2018 EPL since August)

    - I completely agree with you, though, that aesthetics is relative. I understand, though i don't share the feeling, that someone might like a Mourinho's Inter, or a Simeone's Atletico. But that's completely irrelevant for what i am saying. xG does not apply only to 'aesthetically pleasing' teams, or only teams that play attacking football. It applies to every style. When Atletico was outplaying their opponents it was being perfectly captured by the xG scoreline. Atletico vs Bayern in 2016 semis: first game Atletico was better captured by the xG, return leg Bayern was better, captured by the xG again.
    Similarly, some fluffy Arsenal sides of the recent past that were playing nice football and were all attacking and 'aesthetically pleasing' were not better than their opponents, and we can say that with the evidence of the xG stat.

    PS: I agree with the others that the great sides of the history did not offer only results and good performances ,but something more than that. Something that contributed to the sport as such. But, they certainly offered the former, for without that they would never have been what they were.
    The uncrowned queens of Hungary '54 and Netherlands '74-'78 built a legacy because of that. And it was unfair that they didn't win the world cup, because not only they were pleasing to the eye, but they were better, more effective, and (i am sure it will be done in the years to come with data reconstruction based on the videos) had better performances as the significant stats (xG) would have said. And the unfairness could have been captured if we knew the stats. For if we knew that Hungary - West Germany final was an 5.3-1.5 in xG (let's assume), we would have known also that if you simulate the game it will be won maybe 90% of times by Hungary..
    Last edited by Birdy; 8th May 2018 at 06:16 AM.
    Xavi's Cups

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    Pleased with the line-up today even though we lost.
    Hala Madrid

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