Would just like to preface this post by stating that I am an RM fan. Happened upon the forum as I was doing some research. The fact that this forum had an RM sub-forum caught my eye. And seeing the usual "Zidane is overrated" fallacies being mentioned in here, I thought I should register and provide my two cents.
Furthermore, if Zidane was indeed so tactically limited, then I really doubt that he would be consistently asked to play such a tactically crucial role (without being dropped mind you for big games, unlike for instance Laudrup who was famously dropped for the 94CL final by a coach like Cruyff) for teams being coached by managers who are themselves considered to be very adept tacticians i.e. guys like Lippi, Ancellotti, etc. One would think, they would notice these fallacies in Zidane's game. Oh, and it isn't as if Zidane never featured in such a role in a big game, since he played as a deep lying playmaker/dm for Juventus in their demolition of Milan at the San Siro in the 96/97 season. It's just that Lippi soon figured out that Zidane was even better as a classic 10.
As for the anecdote regarding Nedved, well, when Zidane left for Real Madrid, Juventus used that money to not only buy Nedved, but Buffon and Thuram as well (so it wasn't just Nedved's effect which helped them achieve success). And even after that, they still reached only one CL final vs the two reached during Zidane's time. Domestically as well, in both their tenures Juventus have 2 Serie A titles (since the other 2 for Nedved were revoked due to Calciopoli, but then Zidane's Juventus ended up losing 2 Serie A titles i.e. in 99/00 and 00/01, in controversial circumstances on the last day of each of those two seasons as well, so it evens out).
Lastly, there was a time before Ronaldo got injured when he was absolutely unplayable and definitely and rightly considered the best player in the world, above even Zidane. But it is also true that at that time Zidane was not at his peak yet, which he reached during the 2000-2002 period. Sadly, Ronaldo was injured by then and thus a direct comparison of the players at their peaks was never made possible.
As for entire seasons where Zidane shined throughout, you can have your pick of 95/96 (33 goals+assists out of 88 goals scored by the team) , 00/01 (20 goals+assists out of 72 goals scored by the team) and 02/03 (29 goals+assists out of 141 goals scored by his team). His teams might have ended up short on trophies in those seasons, except in case of 02/03 when they won La Liga, but statistically, his impact on his team's goalscoring in those seasons is easily comparable to the consistent best that Iniesta can offer. And in case of seasons wherein Zidane played for offensively weaker teams, it actually makes his contributions more valuable to his team's fortunes.
In any case, if you hold say Xavi to that same scale, for instance, and give him the same handicap with regards to his teammates, he would have a lot lesser volume of major trophies to show for all his brilliant play, considering that he never scored in any major final. Point is, that you have to understand that Zidane was a midfielder, and so scoring was not always possible for him. And if his teammates also did not score from the chances he provided for them, it was hardly his fault. He was definitely not "invisible" in all those games you listed, as for instance I pointed out in case of Euro 00, or as is the case for the 97 CL final wherein he hit the post and also had a pre-assist. Thus there are some clear hyperboles in that above mentioned list almost like saying Xavi was invisible for the WC 2010 final.
For your reference, below is a list of big game goals by Zidane -
Stage Tournament Year Goals
Final European Cup 2002 1
Semi Final European Cup 2003 1
Semi Final European Cup 2002 1
Semi Final European Cup 1998 1
Semi Final European Cup 1997 1
Semi Final Euros 2000 1
Final World Cup 2006 1
Final World Cup 1998 2
Semi Final World Cup 2006 1
Source - http://www.averageopposition.com/2013/02/top-50-big-game-scorers-some-findings.html , which is a blog that has a compilation of players' goals scored in major international tournament finals and semi finals and awards points accordingly to said players (Zidane is 5th in that list btw).
In addition to the above, below is a list of his indirect goal involvements in big games drawn as per the same criteria as above,
So, if you consider direct assists as per the big games that the blog is counting, he has,
1 vs Slavia Prague in the SF in E3 1996
2 vs Ajax in E1 in the SF in E1 1997
1 vs Manchester United in the SF in E1 1999
1 vs Barcelona in the SF in E1 2002
And, if you also consider pks won, pre-assists and setups, all leading to goals, he has,
1 setup vs Ajax in the SF in E1 1997
1 pre-assist vs Borussia Dortmund in the F in E1 1997
1 pk won vs Monaco in the SF in E1 1998
1 setup vs Croatia in the SF in WC 1998
1 pre-assist vs Manchester United in E1 1999
The above are from my own memory, so if you want to cross check, best to try and find the video highlights of the respective games.
In any case, the above together come to 20 goals he was a contributor to in 23 games in the Semis and Finals of the major international tournaments that he featured in. That's more than either Xavi or Iniesta and approximately close to what Messi's numbers look like, from what I recollect as having counted (cannot find the post right now), when looking at their goal involvement across a similar criteria of games.
Secondly, he did not take all PKs and FKs for Real Madrid, or even most of them, unlike Rivaldo did for Barcelona. Figo took almost all of them, leaving a tiny amount for Zidane, thus drastically impacting his goal numbers as well as assist numbers. Also, Rivaldo did take pks for Brazil e.g., he took the regular time pks against Russia, Uruguay, Turkey and Peru (off the top of my head), so saying he was not a penalty taker for his country is quite the lie. In fact, I find it worrying that the pk point is mentioned for Zidane when he had all of 19 career PKs while it is not mentioned for Rivaldo who had 65 (both including PSOs).
Thirdly, the French NT unlike the Brazilian was not setup to score goals, but was primarily a defensive side. This hindered Zidane's goal and assist output at an NT level.
Considering the above handicaps, Zidane actually did quite well for himself in terms of the numbers he put up, especially at NT level.
Lastly, for the case with Henry, there are a few things that need to be considered,
1) Zidane did assist Henry during the Euro 00 as well, in addition to doing it in WC 06, though the first one was a goal more made by Henry dribbling than the pass from Zidane, which was routine
2) Apart from those assists though, there were a number of opportunities that Zidane provided to Henry which he couldn't capitalise on when playing for the French NT. Ten of these are listed here (although there are definitely more) - http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cr...yer-of-all-time.2001056/page-43#post-31340027
3) Zidane's playmaking had a pronounced indirect effect on Henry's scoring, in that it enabled the same. This can be seen if we look at the matches played by Henry from his debut till his 85th cap (vs Italy in WC 06, when Zidane retired), and look at his gpg while playing with Zidane and without Zidane,
Games featuring both Henry & Zidane - Games 56* / Henry Goals 25 / Henry GPG 0.45
Games featuring Henry but not Zidane - Games 29 / Henry Goals 11 / Henry GPG 0.38
Considering the same numbers as above only for NT tournaments,
Games featuring both Henry & Zidane - Games 18/ Henry Goals 10/ Henry GPG 0.55
Games featuring Henry but not Zidane - Games 6 / Henry Goals 1 / Henry GPG 0.17
Sources -
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/henry-intlg.html
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/zidane-intl.html
So during the time that Zidane was active i.e. till Henry's 85th cap, Henry had a significantly better gpg with him in the team than without him there and this was even more pronounced when playing in NT tournaments.
Thus ultimately, in case of the Zidane-Henry partnership, Zidane definitely did do enough to get more assists for Henry and was also definitely a positive influence on Henry's goalscoring, especially in major NT tournaments.
The fact that Zidane played with DMs isn't exactly a concrete example of any tactical ineptness on his part, since he was a classic 10. The role is kind of lost on the current generation who is used to watching teams play 4-3-3s, but to surmise, a player playing such a role in those days was actually given the task of controlling the tempo of the game and moving the ball vertically/horizontally as required, from a tactical perspective. The DMs were generally used to stop the opposition from playing by recovering balls and cycling them back to their own number 10, to start a new chain of playmaking. Hence the term 'water carrier' as used by Cantona for Deschamps.
Furthermore, if Zidane was indeed so tactically limited, then I really doubt that he would be consistently asked to play such a tactically crucial role (without being dropped mind you for big games, unlike for instance Laudrup who was famously dropped for the 94CL final by a coach like Cruyff) for teams being coached by managers who are themselves considered to be very adept tacticians i.e. guys like Lippi, Ancellotti, etc. One would think, they would notice these fallacies in Zidane's game. Oh, and it isn't as if Zidane never featured in such a role in a big game, since he played as a deep lying playmaker/dm for Juventus in their demolition of Milan at the San Siro in the 96/97 season. It's just that Lippi soon figured out that Zidane was even better as a classic 10.
As for the anecdote regarding Nedved, well, when Zidane left for Real Madrid, Juventus used that money to not only buy Nedved, but Buffon and Thuram as well (so it wasn't just Nedved's effect which helped them achieve success). And even after that, they still reached only one CL final vs the two reached during Zidane's time. Domestically as well, in both their tenures Juventus have 2 Serie A titles (since the other 2 for Nedved were revoked due to Calciopoli, but then Zidane's Juventus ended up losing 2 Serie A titles i.e. in 99/00 and 00/01, in controversial circumstances on the last day of each of those two seasons as well, so it evens out).
Zidane v Ronaldo started in 97/98, wherein they competed for the Serie A and World Cup titles. Guess who won both of them, and no R9 was not injured in the Serie A that season but the next, though he did suffer from that seizure during the World Cup final. And yes, obviously the 2006 World Cup helped Zidane's popularity and his performance against Brazil was a major influence on fans watching at that time, but that was simply a result of the improbability of it, considering that a 34 year old bossed a game involving a 2 time former Ballon d'Or winner, the reigning Ballon d'Or winner and the soon to be anointed Ballon d'Or winner. So the rivalry wasn't manufactured post retirement, but was a product of the two best players of that generation being pitted against one another in two separate world cups and a league campaign.
Lastly, there was a time before Ronaldo got injured when he was absolutely unplayable and definitely and rightly considered the best player in the world, above even Zidane. But it is also true that at that time Zidane was not at his peak yet, which he reached during the 2000-2002 period. Sadly, Ronaldo was injured by then and thus a direct comparison of the players at their peaks was never made possible.
For a player who didn't do much in world cup 98, it surely is surprising that he was the highest rated offensive player (2nd highest overall behind Thuram) with minimum 5 games played, by kicker magazine (a relatively dependable source for NT tournament player ratings) for the 98 World Cup. Source - http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/wm/spiele/weltmeisterschaft/1998/topspieler-der-saison.html or that the Argentinean EL Grafico magazine considered him to be their player of the tournament. Source - http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/how-good-was-zidane-in-wc98.1992390/page-5#post-28566702
As for entire seasons where Zidane shined throughout, you can have your pick of 95/96 (33 goals+assists out of 88 goals scored by the team) , 00/01 (20 goals+assists out of 72 goals scored by the team) and 02/03 (29 goals+assists out of 141 goals scored by his team). His teams might have ended up short on trophies in those seasons, except in case of 02/03 when they won La Liga, but statistically, his impact on his team's goalscoring in those seasons is easily comparable to the consistent best that Iniesta can offer. And in case of seasons wherein Zidane played for offensively weaker teams, it actually makes his contributions more valuable to his team's fortunes.
All that the above list shows is that if Zidane didn't absolutely take control and win the final for his team by scoring goals, they generally lost it (apart from the Euro 00 final and even there he had better overall stats than both Henry and Totti, both of whom are considered to have had a better game than him by his detractors and were the respective motms for their teams). Which shows how the "he always played with superior teammates" argument is also a bit of a fallacy (at least for cup finals).
In any case, if you hold say Xavi to that same scale, for instance, and give him the same handicap with regards to his teammates, he would have a lot lesser volume of major trophies to show for all his brilliant play, considering that he never scored in any major final. Point is, that you have to understand that Zidane was a midfielder, and so scoring was not always possible for him. And if his teammates also did not score from the chances he provided for them, it was hardly his fault. He was definitely not "invisible" in all those games you listed, as for instance I pointed out in case of Euro 00, or as is the case for the 97 CL final wherein he hit the post and also had a pre-assist. Thus there are some clear hyperboles in that above mentioned list almost like saying Xavi was invisible for the WC 2010 final.
For your reference, below is a list of big game goals by Zidane -
Stage Tournament Year Goals
Final European Cup 2002 1
Semi Final European Cup 2003 1
Semi Final European Cup 2002 1
Semi Final European Cup 1998 1
Semi Final European Cup 1997 1
Semi Final Euros 2000 1
Final World Cup 2006 1
Final World Cup 1998 2
Semi Final World Cup 2006 1
Source - http://www.averageopposition.com/2013/02/top-50-big-game-scorers-some-findings.html , which is a blog that has a compilation of players' goals scored in major international tournament finals and semi finals and awards points accordingly to said players (Zidane is 5th in that list btw).
In addition to the above, below is a list of his indirect goal involvements in big games drawn as per the same criteria as above,
So, if you consider direct assists as per the big games that the blog is counting, he has,
1 vs Slavia Prague in the SF in E3 1996
2 vs Ajax in E1 in the SF in E1 1997
1 vs Manchester United in the SF in E1 1999
1 vs Barcelona in the SF in E1 2002
And, if you also consider pks won, pre-assists and setups, all leading to goals, he has,
1 setup vs Ajax in the SF in E1 1997
1 pre-assist vs Borussia Dortmund in the F in E1 1997
1 pk won vs Monaco in the SF in E1 1998
1 setup vs Croatia in the SF in WC 1998
1 pre-assist vs Manchester United in E1 1999
The above are from my own memory, so if you want to cross check, best to try and find the video highlights of the respective games.
In any case, the above together come to 20 goals he was a contributor to in 23 games in the Semis and Finals of the major international tournaments that he featured in. That's more than either Xavi or Iniesta and approximately close to what Messi's numbers look like, from what I recollect as having counted (cannot find the post right now), when looking at their goal involvement across a similar criteria of games.
First of all, Zidane did not always play as an AM for RM. Especially during 03/04 and 04/05, he was mostly forced out wide (to the left), to accomodate Beckham in the center of midfield, since Figo would not relinquish his right midfield spot, even though he could play on the left side almost just as well. Rivaldo on the other hand played as a forward as well as an AM and sometimes a LW.
Secondly, he did not take all PKs and FKs for Real Madrid, or even most of them, unlike Rivaldo did for Barcelona. Figo took almost all of them, leaving a tiny amount for Zidane, thus drastically impacting his goal numbers as well as assist numbers. Also, Rivaldo did take pks for Brazil e.g., he took the regular time pks against Russia, Uruguay, Turkey and Peru (off the top of my head), so saying he was not a penalty taker for his country is quite the lie. In fact, I find it worrying that the pk point is mentioned for Zidane when he had all of 19 career PKs while it is not mentioned for Rivaldo who had 65 (both including PSOs).
Thirdly, the French NT unlike the Brazilian was not setup to score goals, but was primarily a defensive side. This hindered Zidane's goal and assist output at an NT level.
Considering the above handicaps, Zidane actually did quite well for himself in terms of the numbers he put up, especially at NT level.
Lastly, for the case with Henry, there are a few things that need to be considered,
1) Zidane did assist Henry during the Euro 00 as well, in addition to doing it in WC 06, though the first one was a goal more made by Henry dribbling than the pass from Zidane, which was routine
2) Apart from those assists though, there were a number of opportunities that Zidane provided to Henry which he couldn't capitalise on when playing for the French NT. Ten of these are listed here (although there are definitely more) - http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/cr...yer-of-all-time.2001056/page-43#post-31340027
3) Zidane's playmaking had a pronounced indirect effect on Henry's scoring, in that it enabled the same. This can be seen if we look at the matches played by Henry from his debut till his 85th cap (vs Italy in WC 06, when Zidane retired), and look at his gpg while playing with Zidane and without Zidane,
Games featuring both Henry & Zidane - Games 56* / Henry Goals 25 / Henry GPG 0.45
Games featuring Henry but not Zidane - Games 29 / Henry Goals 11 / Henry GPG 0.38
Considering the same numbers as above only for NT tournaments,
Games featuring both Henry & Zidane - Games 18/ Henry Goals 10/ Henry GPG 0.55
Games featuring Henry but not Zidane - Games 6 / Henry Goals 1 / Henry GPG 0.17
Sources -
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/henry-intlg.html
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/zidane-intl.html
So during the time that Zidane was active i.e. till Henry's 85th cap, Henry had a significantly better gpg with him in the team than without him there and this was even more pronounced when playing in NT tournaments.
Thus ultimately, in case of the Zidane-Henry partnership, Zidane definitely did do enough to get more assists for Henry and was also definitely a positive influence on Henry's goalscoring, especially in major NT tournaments.
