Crowds and the lack of support in Europe

One of the espn-br commentators, Mauro Cezar Pereira, wrote an interesting piece about the crowds in europe, with focus on Barça, rm, bayern and dortmund. He was at the camp nou for the barça-bayern game. I've seen people complain about the crowd at Camp Nou here before, so I'd like to know what you guys think about it(google translation with some tweaks, sorry):


The triumph of who played better. Triumph of who knows how to support and cheer. Lessons from ball and stands.

Score in the semifinals, Germany 11 x 3 Spain. The two German representatives in the decision of the Champions League and the Spanish giants again out of the expected European final Real Madrid vs Barcelona. It will not happen, at least this time, reflecting the excellent time experienced by the two major German teams on the field and in the stands.

It's almost pathetic to observe the days before the decisive games in the Bernabeu and Camp Nou, with the press and Spanish clubs earnestly asking the fans to encourage their teams. First because to support the club is obvious function of the fan, second because there was no answer. Supporters of the two most important teams of the country do not know to... cheer.

Reflection of the gentrification of football that hits Real and Barca, as well as the English teams. Stadiums transformed into theaters with audiences replacing fans. Expensive tickets attract rich people, in general not ready to scream, fluttering in the stands. Sitting in numbered seats, follow the collation, leave money in bars, cafes and shops officers. Just do not cheer.

And they don't because they do not know how to support. These people do not have this profile and became almost all of whom go to the stadiums of such clubs. With that, the crowd turned into audience, cold, distant, able to scream goal, to applaud, but absolutely sterile when players on the field need an incentive, a support, an extra force. They have no idea how to give it.

The Germans have the virtue of preserving this aspect. Its stages, labeled as the same "arena" as Munich, have real supporters. Tickets more affordable and people going to the game with flags for the party, ready to shout, sing, jump, vibrate. They also "play" involved giving the support that makes the home field something heavy.

Englishmen have been discussing this for some time. Supporters from countries like Greece, Poland, Turkey and Cyprus dominated stages when visiting England. A group of only 3000 people to overcome 45 000, 75 000 in shouts, whether in Stamfortd Bridge or Old Trafford. It was the same in the Camp Nou. The just over 5000 fans Bayern shouted more than 90,000 barcelonistas.

We're not talking about chartacteristics from this or that people. Cheering had been vibrant in England and Spain. This week I saw the VT Real Madrid 4 x 0 Borussia Monchengladbach for the Uefa Cup in 1986. The Spanish television has spent the last few days remembering big comebacks ("remontadas" as they say) of Real and Barca, hoping that'd happen again.

And on that merengue reaction it was amazing the difference in audience behavior at the Bernabeu. Yes, Real Madrid had a vibrant crowd in the 1980s. Flags, shouts, songs ... The bleachers helped. It's not like that anymore, and on th Nou Camp the feeling of coldness is even greater. The Catalan people, who take pride when it comes to the agenda the idea of ​​independence, does not react for Barça.

It is evident that the shouting of the fans is not sufficient to lead to "remontadas". Bayern were better, they're better now. But the shouts could help, as they helped the German champion in the battle of Munich. Presidents think about money, selling tickets for the higher prices possible. Of course, there is a demand and business, and the good old law of supply and demand is what governs it all.

But football is not just a business. It is above all a passion. And without the screaming of fanatical people and willing to practically give it all for their team, it becomes harder to chase that ball seemingly lost or dispute the split with the opponent. This extra "fuel" was available for only one team in this semifinal, Bayern with their fans.

Because the Germans want to profit too, but still have not abandoned this basic principle of our sport. And real fans, not spectators, are key to this. On behalf of everyone that one day got sun, rain, cheered, suffered, cried and laughed in the stands, in general, it was a triumph of football. Yes, fans also "play"!

What bothers me about the crowd at Barca matches (I've not been to the Camp Nou yet, so this is based on observation on tv/photos, and from friends who go regularly) is that it seems like the club has to tell the crowd how to show support, so it seems forced. The tifo designs/coreo you see at the big matches are club regulated, rather than made by fan groups. It's not unique & the passion/dedication is lacking there. A lot of this might have to do with most of the ultras being banned - not necessarily advocating for their return since some of them caused more trouble than it's worth to have them there, but there have to be some other organized group(s) who can step up.

Also, there's the issue of ticket prices but that seems to be a problem all over Europe. There are probably plenty of people who would love to come out & support their club but can't afford to. It was problematic for example that it cost less money for me to fly from London to Milan than it did for one ticket to Milan v Barca at the San Siro (and this is just based on face value of the ticket, not counting the exorbitant fees from third party sellers).

Then there are the "fans" who leave early just because the team is doing poorly... what a way to show support. You are privileged enough to be able to attend a match, don't ruin it by giving up & turning your back on them. It must be disheartening for the players to see something like that.

Barca fans are absolutely horrible compared to fans of other European teams. Seems like all the upper class/foreign people go to the Camp Nou and don't cheer because they feel it's not bourgeoisie enough.

You guys shouldn't complain about your crowd. There is no crowd as spoiled as the one that sits around Bernabeu week-in week-out.

What this article fails to address is the nature of the fans in Germany who cheer. German stadiums have standing sections for their dedicated ultra's. These are largely made up of vibrant youth supporters. English teams don't have these dedicated 'singing sections', and neither do Spain to a large extent. Our ultra group become infected with racial undertones, and the same has happened with Madrid's ultra's. As a result ours were banned from the stadium.

Generally speaking most fans at the Allianz will sit and watch their team too, only occasionally joining into the chanting. In fact I could hear the Arsenal support out-singing the Bayern fans when the two sides met.

Ultra groups lead the support in German stadiums but this has not happened in Spain to the same extent because of racism/politics. If we want support similar to that of Germany then we have to re create our ultra support.

On a side note we visited Celtic this year and the support was astonishing, literally 60,000 people singing and jumping along with fantastic tifo organised by the fans. We shouldn't really expect this though as a team like Celtic does not often experience that level of success.

Kerrybai said:

What this article fails to address is the nature of the fans in Germany who cheer. German stadiums have standing sections for their dedicated ultra's. These are largely made up of vibrant youth supporters. English teams don't have these dedicated 'singing sections', and neither do Spain to a large extent. Our ultra group become infected with racial undertones, and the same has happened with Madrid's ultra's. As a result ours were banned from the stadium.

Generally speaking most fans at the Allianz will sit and watch their team too, only occasionally joining into the chanting. In fact I could hear the Arsenal support out-singing the Bayern fans when the two sides met.

Ultra groups lead the support in German stadiums but this has not happened in Spain to the same extent because of racism/politics. If we want support similar to that of Germany then we have to re create our ultra support.

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Yeah, I touched on this in my post above. Not just the racism, but the violence also. One of my best friends in Barcelona, her father is in the Boixos Nois & is banned from the stadium. Quite rightly I might add, he was involved in both the pig's head incident & the death threats to Laporta, so I have no gripes about that. I have no problem with fans chanting against opposing players (as long as they're not racist in tone) but when it gets violent with the potential for people getting seriously hurt, that type of stuff has no place in sport. Also, the Boixos Nois (and Ultras Sur for Madrid) are really the only real organized ultras groups the two clubs have. There are penyas, but they're not the same.

In Italy (and I guess Germany too, but I don't follow the Bundesliga so I have no familiarity with German clubs' fanbases) most clubs have multiple different groups that overall work together. Some are political based (Inter for example have both right-wing & left-wing groups) and some don't care about politics at all. Even the more notorious ones like Irriducibili in recent years haven't been much controversial. Most incidents you hear about now are by individuals or small sections, not entire groups. But anyway, you get the loud support, beautiful tifo, & passion that you just don't see in Spain.

England has the same problem too but it's more to do with the FA trying to make football matches "family friendly" after so many years of hooligan incidents that ruined the country's reputation.

XaviMessiGirl said:

England has the same problem too but it's more to do with the FA trying to make football matches "family friendly" after so many years of hooligan incidents that ruined the country's reputation.

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Interestingly though the Germans have made football into a family friendly commercial event while also creating loud ultra sections. From what I can see the introduction of standing sections have allowed for this. The average cheapest season ticket in Spain is around 230 pounds, and in Germany it is around 200 pounds so ticket prices are not really the issue.

However In Germany these cheap tickets are in the standing sections behind the goals allowing more vocal supporters to gather together, even fans who may not be members of the ultra groups. At the camp Nou I imagine these cheap tickets are way up in the nose bleeds. Of course the cheaper tickets also attract more youth who are more likely to cheer etc. These cheap tickets and standing sections seem to be a result of pressure from ultra groups in Germany, unfortunately for us ours became radical so it's unlikely we will ever see the same sort of support at the Camp Nou unless our ultra group re-invents and attracts more support.

The English situation is more complicated as ticket prices are so high, with the cheapest season tickets at about 470 pounds. This picture sums up English football for me, taken at Sunderland's ground. Thankfully though some games still have great atmospheres. Anfield on Derby day is always great even with 700 pound season tickets and no ultra groups or standing sections.

Since you brought up Anfield - I've always thought Liverpool fans to be some of the most vocal supporters in England. The Kop does whatever they can do while still within the restrictions. You can't say that much about Chelsea fans etc. However, what I found odd - I attended a Liverpool match last season & the crowd was a lot quieter than I was expecting, almost dull. I don't know if it was just that particular match (the team played like crap & the match itself was dull, 1-0 loss) or if it all just seems "bigger" on tv. But then I've also been to an Inter match - granted it was the derby, but still - and the atmosphere in the stadium was fantastic. That is the difference between these "regulated crowds" & the ones that still have a lot of control/freedom. Obviously there has to be some policing of the fans, otherwise you get chaos like you still see in some Eastern European countries for example, but some of it is too much.

And, that picture Modern football.



Edit: While it's a little overboard/hyperbolic (it was posted on an ultras-oriented website), this video kinda sums it up. Our club sponsored tifo makes an appearance

XaviMessiGirl said:

Since you brought up Anfield - I've always thought Liverpool fans to be some of the most vocal supporters in England. The Kop does whatever they can do while still within the restrictions. You can't say that much about Chelsea fans etc. However, what I found odd - I attended a Liverpool match last season & the crowd was a lot quieter than I was expecting, almost dull. I don't know if it was just that particular match (the team played like crap & the match itself was dull, 1-0 loss) or if it all just seems "bigger" on tv. But then I've also been to an Inter match - granted it was the derby, but still - and the atmosphere in the stadium was fantastic. That is the difference between these "regulated crowds" & the ones that still have a lot of control/freedom. Obviously there has to be some policing of the fans, otherwise you get chaos like you still see in some Eastern European countries for example, but some of it is too much.

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Liverpool have the loudest fans in England with sound levels hitting 97 decibels. http://epltalk.com/2011/05/13/top-20-loudest-football-grounds-in-premier-league/

Your point about regulated crowds sums it up for me. In England crowds have become so regulated that they are scorned for standing up. However in Italy I wouldn't say things are ideal either. On one hand the vocal support and tifo's are great but on the other hand there is a serious hooligan factor present in Italy, or at least that's what I'm lead to believe? Whether it's racist chanting or stabbing opposing fans it's not good for the clubs. Attendances are down all across Italy and I think that many regular fans prefer to watch on tv now as hooliganism can be a problem. I could be wrong about that though maybe the problems are not as bad as I think.

Germnay have perfected the balance between regulation and freedom of their fans. The English could learn a lot from them, as could the Spanish.

Edit: I forgot to mention the video. Seating for me is what has largely killed atmospheres Their is a small campaign in England to bring back terraces. Clubs like Liverpool could use them as a cheap way to increase capacity but sadly past events make it a very divisive issue.

There is actually this campaign in England to protest the high ticket prices, which is a start. They plan to protest at the FA Headquarters on fixture release day. Don't know how much good it will do (probably none), one can only hope though. I'm moving to the UK next year, naturally I think I'll then be able to travel to more matches than I can from all the way over here in California, but if the prices continue to get more & more outrageous it won't be very many. Like I said, plane ticket costing less than match ticket = ridiculous.

As for terraces, of course I know all about Hillsborough and other awful disasters which eventually led to all-seater stadia, at the same time though it was largely caused by OVERCROWDING of the terraces & the police not doing a good enough job, letting people in w/o tickets, etc. If it was better policed & the proper safety precautions taken (sturdily built & properly maintained, an enforced maximum capacity, etc), I'm sure terraces could exist again with little incident.

Re: trouble in Italy, yes there are still incidents with racism, but again like I said it's largely done by individuals or small sections of people, most of the big ultras groups in Italy nowadays actually publicly denounce racism. Same with the violence, which tends to increase the further south in the country you go. Let's say I would rather run into a Milan ultra in a dark alley than Napoli one. But I don't think attendances are down due to fears of hooliganism, I think it is mainly due to the affordability factor (for some clubs, stadia are nearly empty for Coppa Italia matches except for one or two sections, that's how bad it has gotten).

I'm sure one story you might remember from recently were the Spurs fans that were attacked in Rome, the perpetrators I believe turned out to be a group of a mixture of Roma & Lazio fans, it wasn't pinned to any one organized group. In short there will always be idiots looking to cause trouble (look what happened with Newcastle & Millwall supporters recently, and this was in England), who might hide behind ultras mentality to "justify" their actions. But overall, GENERALLY, I don't think particular groups are the cause of the problems themselves (anymore) - in Italy at least. Of course I'm not familiar with groups for every club in every country.

It's an interesting debate though which could really be a topic in itself. To be honest most people think it's odd for an American to talk so much on this subject, but I know a couple people who sit in Curva Nord at Inter matches so I care about it a little more I guess - though at the same time you could perhaps call it a bias.

I attended Liverpool vs Udinese with a buddy of mine, i was a neutral. The stadium was near full & ridiculously quiet, infact all i could hear was about 1,000 Udinese fans going nuts, they were quite funny to observe.

When me & Lindsay went to watch Milan vs Barcelona at San Siro, i'm quite the reserved type so i never imagine myself getting up & shouting/chanting or w/e but kind of out of character i found myself doing it The atmosphere was great though.

The atmosphere at Anfield is crap but when they want to turn it on, then there aren't many better.

Ode to Django said:

When me & Lindsay went to watch Milan vs Barcelona at San Siro, i'm quite the reserved type so i never imagine myself getting up & shouting/chanting or w/e but kind of out of character i found myself doing it The atmosphere was great though.

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You were pretty quiet at the other match we went to though

XaviMessiGirl said:

You were pretty quiet at the other match we went to though

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yeah i suppose lol, fodder seats

Ode to Django said:

yeah i suppose lol, fodder seats

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Nah you were just scared of the big bad interisti