7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

I think the only way we can play the fantastic four will be to play a 4231 like how we did vs girona at home last season.

Mats---Semedo, Pique, Umtiti, Alba---Rakitic, Busi---Dembele, Messi, Coutinho---Suarez

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we only played this lineup like only 3 times last season.

soul24rage said:

I think the only way we can play the fantastic four will be to play a 4231 like how we did vs girona at home last season.

Mats---Semedo, Pique, Umtiti, Alba---Rakitic, Busi---Dembele, Messi, Coutinho---Suarez

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think we only played this lineup like only 3 times last season.

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Is this what you are suggesting for our current available players?


You don't see the issue with that formation/personnel?

Respekt_III said:

Is this what you are suggesting for our current available players?
View attachment 8157

You don't see the issue with that formation/personnel?

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no no, that formation is not what i'm suggesting. EDIT: put Coutinho on the LW, Messi as the CAM and Dembele as the RW. Put Rakitic and Busi a lot closer together.

for some reason I can't upload an image so go to minute 9:37 on this youtube video. That's the formation/lineup that I am suggesting to bring the best of the fantastic four

[youtube]u7SP3NGQyu4[/youtube]

soul24rage said:

no no, that formation is not what i'm suggesting.

for some reason I can't upload an image so go to minute 9:37 on this youtube video. That's the formation/lineup that I am suggesting to bring the best of the fantastic four

[youtube]u7SP3NGQyu4[/youtube]

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This is 442 with Coutinho & Dembele on the sides that we played at the end of last season, many here hated it

khaled_a_d said:

This is 442 with Coutinho & Dembele on the sides that we played at the end of last season, many here hated it

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we only tried the 4231 with coutinho and dembele on the sides for like 3 games last season and one of them was one of the very few games last season in which it was entertaining (Girona at home). The other two was also good if i can recall correctly.

I'm not suggesting we play this lineup/formation but as of this moment this is the formation that I think brings the best of those 4 attacking players, attacking and defensive wise.

EDIT: a quick search on google showed me that the other two games was Leganes at home and Deportivo at away last season.

soul24rage said:

we only tried the 4231 with coutinho and dembele on the sides for like 3 games last season and one of them was one of the very few games last season in which it was entertaining (Girona at home). The other two was also good if i can recall correctly.

I'm not suggesting we play this lineup/formation but as of this moment this is the formation that I think brings the best of those 4 attacking players, attacking and defensive wise.

EDIT: a quick search on google showed me that the other two games was Leganes at home and Deportivo at away last season.

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I think it is the same line up when Iniesta was rotating with Dembele/Coutinho too.
I am not saying I dislike it, actually I am surprised we aren't using it more this season. But the forum here seem to be allergic to 442 line up. Doubt calling it 4231 change that

khaled_a_d said:

This is 442 with Coutinho & Dembele on the sides that we played at the end of last season, many here hated it

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I think this would be more like a 4-4-1-1 in defence though.

soul24rage said:

no no, that formation is not what i'm suggesting. EDIT: put Coutinho on the LW, Messi as the CAM and Dembele as the RW. Put Rakitic and Busi a lot closer together.

for some reason I can't upload an image so go to minute 9:37 on this youtube video. That's the formation/lineup that I am suggesting to bring the best of the fantastic four

[youtube]u7SP3NGQyu4[/youtube]

Click to expand...

The 4-2-3-1 on the left side is a major issue as its incredibly vulnerable on the counter attack. If Alba makes overlapping/is caught out of position when we lose the ball we are in major trouble (as they're all slow). If you keep alba from making those runs in that formation we lose the width and would need it from Dembele/Couthinho but then they'd be too far apart from suarez/messi etc. This formation would be more effective imo with another winger with higher a higher work rate (malcom?).

For it to even be remotely effective against better sides you'd have to expect a high defensive workload from Messi, Dembele & Coutinho, which just isn't going to happen or be effective.

edit: I think the 4231 is slightly different to a normal 442 though, its also dependent on the tactics employed by the manager with the positions the players take up and which area's they cover.

Respekt_III said:

The 4-2-3-1 on the left side is a major issue as its incredibly vulnerable on the counter attack. If Alba makes overlapping/is caught out of position when we lose the ball we are in major trouble (as they're all slow). If you keep alba from making those runs in that formation we lose the width and would need it from Dembele/Couthinho but then they'd be too far apart from suarez/messi etc. This formation would be more effective imo with another winger with higher a higher work rate (malcom?).

For it to even be remotely effective against better sides you'd have to expect a high defensive workload from Messi, Dembele & Coutinho, which just isn't going to happen or be effective.

edit: I think the 4231 is slightly different to a normal 442 though, its also dependent on the tactics employed by the manager with the positions the players take up and which area's they cover.

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For me, we always face problems with counter attacks whatever formation we line up with. We always push our fullback up to create width so that's the risk we always take. But I agree that if we were to play the 4231 with those attacking 4, Coutinho and Dembele have to be incredibly disciplined, have good workrate, and defend their width properly whenever we lose the ball because suarez and messi are not gonna defend.

I also agree that 4231 and 442 is slightly different. Last season, when we were attacking, I felt that it was more of a 4231 as Suarez was responsible for creating space vertically and grabbing the attention of the CBs while Messi stayed behind to attack the space Suarez created for those little cutbacks usually made by Alba. Only when defending was it a 442 imo.

soul24rage said:

For me, we always face problems with counter attacks whatever formation we line up with. We always push our fullback up to create width so that's the risk we always take. But I agree that if we were to play the 4231 with those attacking 4, Coutinho and Dembele have to be incredibly disciplined, have good workrate, and defend their width properly whenever we lose the ball because suarez and messi are not gonna defend.

I also agree that 4231 and 442 is slightly different. Last season, when we were attacking, I felt that it was more of a 4231 as Suarez was responsible for creating space vertically and grabbing the attention of the CBs while Messi stayed behind to attack the space Suarez created for those little cutbacks usually made by Alba. Only when defending was it a 442 imo.

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I agree we've always faced issues with counters, that's why i suggested a winger instead of Coutinho as he could cover for Alba with his pace, Something busqets/coutinho cant do. It obviously wont stop all counter attacks but would make them less effective against us. Just think of what a Spurs/Liverpool could do on the counter with that type of set up. I also dont think coutinho or Dembele have the stamina for that role (but that might be ok since malcom can come in as a sub?).

To be honest its a tough position to be in but i do agree that Messi is best in that cam/floating role so we should cater to him first and foremost. I'm just not sure having them all on the field at the same time will work. It's also one of the reasons i though Eriksen would of been a better fit for our situation than coutinho as he can play the CM much better then coutinho can.

I think coutinho would be able to fill the CAM position easily when Messi needs a rest. Coutinho's shot is also a major weapon so IMO the CAM/LW positions are the only real viable positions for him currently.

edit: i should add that if we want him to learn to be more of a CM we need to start playing him there so he can develop his game. I know he's not great there, but longer term it might be a major benefit to the team i guess.

Bernardo Silva used to play RW in his early career and at Monaco. He was a mix between RW and CAM who was one of Monaco's less hardworking players without the ball. Similar profile to Coutinho, the difference is that Coutinho is right footed and prefers the left wing. Bernardo Silva is slowly becoming a complete midfielder under Pep. Look at his defensive contribution against Liverpool !

3 successful tackles
4 interceptions

Best defensive stats on the field, better than any other player on the pitch ! He was everywhere, always running (14km!) and pressuring the opponent and even Liverpool's GK. Even Vidal or Rakitic (someone's favorite tall, strong and thug workhorses) never looked so impressive defensively this season ! And Bernardo did that against one of the best teams in Europe.
We're talking about small, "weak", 1,70m and 60kg "schoolboy" Bernardo Silva !

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION] that's what I'm saying: a great coach could probably turn Coutinho into a complete midfielder.

And also one interesting thing: Coutinho had far better defensive stats at Liverpool than at Barça ! Coutinho's defensive stats at Liverpool were better than Bernardo's at Monaco.

How do you explain that ? Why did Coutinho become useless since he plays under Valverde ? Coincidence ?

Funny thing is that KDB and David Silva both were wingers/CAM too before Pep made them evolve and turned them into complete all around midfielders !

That's all well and good but they didn't spend 140m on him, did they. It also took a fairly long time before Bernardo was moved to the middle (making a lot of sub appearances on the wing for most of last season). It Also works for city because of the tactics employed, their fullbacks don't really make the runs in behind and prefer to fill in midfield which keeps them less exposed.

Coutinho isn't useless he's just not as effective as other options currently. We got absolutely extorted for him...

Oh yeah, i hope that a coach will teach Coutinho to be everywhere, to defend, to press and to run 14km each match like a crazy.
It's clearly achievable and inherent to the player's profile.

MagIX said:

Oh yeah, i hope that a coach will teach Coutinho to be everywhere, to defend, to press and to run 14km each match like a crazy.
It's clearly achievable and inherent to the player's profile.

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Never said that. Bernardo was the ultimate workhorse yesterday. There is 0 CM's or even DM's working as hard in Barcelona as Bernardo did last night. But if Bernardo, the small, weak, short schoolboy can be PL's greatest workhorse in the PL's biggest match, Coutinho can for sure play in the midfield and have a decent defensive contribution under good management who can motivate and convince his players.

I find it funny that I have to defend Coutinho against you dweebs when at first I was one of the rare Barça fans who was against his buy because I know how important discipline is to play in Barça midfield. I don't get impressed with a few long range goals and some joga bonito shit. Now that he's here, I'm looking for settlement and telling that we need to develop him and optimize his potential to the fullest and y'all be like "no he'll never work hard, it's a dead thing, we prefer to give up". Little weak man mentality, just like your dear coach Valverde.

We're not the ones pushing a narrative here, I would also say that you are choosing an extreme outlier as an example.

Coutinho is actually the one not pushing himself, he's been given chances and just hasn't taken them. I totally agree that Valverde isn't the coach to help players develop their game however considering his experience he should understand what he needs to do to develop those skills without Valverdes input.

FYI some people can hit a wall in relation to fitness.

Now when Dembouz is on fire let's start panicking over Coutinho. Typical barcaforum. All footballers have good and bad periods, he didn't forget how to play football and yes he can play in 4-3-3 and he can play in midfield and I have no doubts he will be much better in the second part of the season. The biggest problem majority of our players have is Valverde and not the lack of ability to adapt to different positions. Give him to Pep and he would be able to play as a winger or midfielder and he would be superb in both positions.