7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

M

MessiCam

Guest
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

Now, let's fast forward to 2018 and what can we expect?
1. we don't have Xavi anymore. Iniesta is a granny and Messi is 30+.
So, on an individual level, a simple logic implies that we won't be even close to 2009's 433, and that we will be way weaker even than 2013's or 2014's 433 in terms of individual skill.
2. about our attacking 433 play, teams will park 2 buses again and we'll face the same good old problems as in late Pep's days or in post-Pep's days when it was painful to watch our sterile 433.
3. our pressure will be poor.
a) because teams figured out how to escape from our pressure
b) because our midfielders are 30+ and they can't run too much
4. we will be prone to counters again, as always
Click to expand...
I think you're oversimplifying things here the same players are expected to play in whichever formation you put forth... Both Iniesta and Messi are playing at a really high level. More so than at any stage in the recent past. Coutinho has been signed, Dembélé is here and Paulinho offers new things in midfield.

So, I am not saying that 442 is perfect.
But it surely is different and somewhat new (for our opponents).
If we'll go back to 433, imo, we can expect EXACTLY the same problems as in all post-Pep's years.
The opponents will play exactly the same against us, and we won't have any new ideas.
We will just pass the ball around the box till death.
Sometimes (against weaker opponents) it will work. But when we'll meet a stronger team, we will be absolutely sterile in attack against their crowded middle around their box.
Click to expand...
But this is happening with the 4-4-2 too. Particularly recently and with no creative wide players in your double pivot workhorse system the centre just gets clogged. With the 4-2-3-1 the double pivot (of which neither is a playmaker) is a parked buses dream because the opposition just press us wide and play counters when the wide men lose the ball which is inevitable.


So, for guys who want 433 back ("because our players will fit well into 433", lol), can you please try to find some TACTICAL solutions how to improve our game:
1. against 2 parked buses and crowded middle around the box
2. how to use flanks better since we can't cross?
3. what to do with our pressure since teams figured us out?
4. how to defend against fast counters in a CL KO matches, in for example: Coutinho-Rakitic-Busquets trio where Coutinho and 3 forwards don't defend and Rakitic and Busquets are 2 turtles?
Add to this at least 1 out of Alba/Roberto bombing forward and we will see 10 counters per match where Busquets-Pique-Umtiti need to defend against 4-5 opponents.
Click to expand...
Why are you laughing?
1. Maybe you can explain how to overcome this in a 4-4-2 as well...
2. Who says we can't cross? Dembélé has already shown that he can put dangerous balls into the box both aerially and low down. Alba too...
3. Again, this is not a problem synonymous with a only 4-3-3.
4. It's a myth that Coutinho and even Dembélé don't defend. And yes, maybe you can explain how a double pivot of 2 turtles is a good idea.

More important than any of the above is finding the best balance for the squad and unfortunately the double pivot sacrifices Messi as well as the midfield. It's pretty evident already. Goals have dried up, midfield is been overrun and teams are playing counters. We're being opened up like a can of peas.
[MENTION=2258]Hamzah[/MENTION]

The reason it makes sense for Messi to play False 9 is that it offers a kill 2 birds with one stone solution. It's a lot easier to establish midfield dominance with his extra body... In a double pivot we're always a CM short even with Messi dropping deep. Also, Suarez, if he has to play doesn't have to play as a left wing. He plays as inside forward attacking the box from the left half space. He'd get plenty of service from Iniesta/Coutinho as well as Messi and Dembélé.
 
BBZ8800

BBZ8800

Senior Member
MessiCam said:
2. Who says we can't cross? Dembélé has already shown that he can put dangerous balls into the box both aerially and low down. Alba too...
4. It's a myth that Coutinho and even Dembélé don't defend.
Click to expand...

About crosses, Dembele can cross.
But to whom will he cross?
To Messi, Iniesta, Coutinho and similar?
We are the shortest top team in the world.

Suarez is the only guy who can get some arial duels.
Then, compare our Cfs with Cfs of RM or Bayern and you will understand why are we onedimensional and they aren't.
This is why I am constantly asking for SOME stronger midfielders and some stronger Cfs.

When you build a team around Cfs like Aguero and midfielders like Coutinho and Iniesta, you can't do anything else but play shortpasses and throughballs through the middle and on the ground.
And then, when the opponents park 2 buses around their box, you are in big troubles.

When you have Cr7 and Benzema upfront, you can play BOTH Barca's shortpassing game and play some crosses.
Again, this is why, imo, in KO matches RM is miles infront of us in terms of options.

"Barca's way of playing" is quite onedimensional.
It is strong and efficient, though.
But when the opponents stop you, we don't have any other ideas.
I love to call Barca's and Pep's style: do the same thing for 100 times in a row and hope for the best.
If it is not working, well, just try to do the same thing for 100 times again and again and hope that it will magically work better this time.
More or less, this is our Plan B since Pep's days. No plan B.
But also, we can't have a plan B due to short and technical players who can play football only in one way.

4. About Dembele and Coutinho defending.
Coutinho is defending like Denis currently.
And Dembele and tackling shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, for now. It is so awkward to watch him trying to defend.

And as Hamzah said, how will we play 433 when Messi wants to play in the middle?
In short when you sum everything:
1. Messi in the middle
2. Coutinho, Dembele and Messi not defending
3. opponents will park 2 buses and we don't have a plan B against 2 buses
4. opponents know how to handle our pressure
5. opponents mastered counters against 433
6. our individual quality is weaker than in 2009 or 2011
= basically, you can only get a bad copy of Pep's 433

If people are dreaming about glory days and how we could play as good as back then in 433, imo, that is almost impossible and will never happen again.
If you are satisfied with some bad copy of a former 433, then fine.
But that way, we could also play 442 or something else, because a poor copy of 433 won't be much stronger than other current formations.
 
J

Jombi

New member
BBZ8800 said:
About crosses, Dembele can cross.
But to whom will he cross?
To Messi, Iniesta, Coutinho and similar?
We are the shortest top team in the world.

Suarez is the only guy who can get some arial duels.
Then, compare our Cfs with Cfs of RM or Bayern and you will understand why are we onedimensional and they aren't.
This is why I am constantly asking for SOME stronger midfielders and some stronger Cfs.

When you build a team around Cfs like Aguero and midfielders like Coutinho and Iniesta, you can't do anything else but play shortpasses and throughballs through the middle and on the ground.
And then, when the opponents park 2 buses around their box, you are in big troubles.

When you have Cr7 and Benzema upfront, you can play BOTH Barca's shortpassing game and play some crosses.
Again, this is why, imo, in KO matches RM is miles infront of us in terms of options.

"Barca's way of playing" is quite onedimensional.
It is strong and efficient, though.
But when the opponents stop you, we don't have any other ideas.
I love to call Barca's and Pep's style: do the same thing for 100 times in a row and hope for the best.
If it is not working, well, just try to do the same thing for 100 times again and again and hope that it will magically work better this time.
More or less, this is our Plan B since Pep's days. No plan B.
But also, we can't have a plan B due to short and technical players who can play football only in one way.

4. About Dembele and Coutinho defending.
Coutinho is defending like Denis currently.
And Dembele and tackling shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, for now. It is so awkward to watch him trying to defend.

And as Hamzah said, how will we play 433 when Messi wants to play in the middle?
In short when you sum everything:
1. Messi in the middle
2. Coutinho, Dembele and Messi not defending
3. opponents will park 2 buses and we don't have a plan B against 2 buses
4. opponents know how to handle our pressure
5. opponents mastered counters against 433
6. our individual quality is weaker than in 2009 or 2011
= basically, you can only get a bad copy of Pep's 433

If people are dreaming about glory days and how we could play as good as back then in 433, imo, that is almost impossible and will never happen again.
If you are satisfied with some bad copy of a former 433, then fine.
But that way, we could also play 442 or something else, because a poor copy of 433 won't be much stronger than other current formations.
Click to expand...

We'll play 433 all the time once your dear Griezmann arrives. No turning back then. It will be 433 and you'll rip your hair out.
 
Raketa10

Raketa10

Senior Member
Jesus Christ, the Bible has fewer letters than BBZ8800 posts. If there is some kind of competition in longest posts on the internet BBZ8800 would win it without a doubt.
 
MagIX

MagIX

Senior Member
BBZ8800 said:
About crosses, Dembele can cross.
But to whom will he cross?
To Messi, Iniesta, Coutinho and similar?
We are the shortest top team in the world.

Suarez is the only guy who can get some arial duels.
Then, compare our Cfs with Cfs of RM or Bayern and you will understand why are we onedimensional and they aren't.
This is why I am constantly asking for SOME stronger midfielders and some stronger Cfs.

When you build a team around Cfs like Aguero and midfielders like Coutinho and Iniesta, you can't do anything else but play shortpasses and throughballs through the middle and on the ground.
And then, when the opponents park 2 buses around their box, you are in big troubles.

When you have Cr7 and Benzema upfront, you can play BOTH Barca's shortpassing game and play some crosses.
Again, this is why, imo, in KO matches RM is miles infront of us in terms of options.

"Barca's way of playing" is quite onedimensional.
It is strong and efficient, though.
But when the opponents stop you, we don't have any other ideas.
I love to call Barca's and Pep's style: do the same thing for 100 times in a row and hope for the best.
If it is not working, well, just try to do the same thing for 100 times again and again and hope that it will magically work better this time.
More or less, this is our Plan B since Pep's days. No plan B.
But also, we can't have a plan B due to short and technical players who can play football only in one way.

4. About Dembele and Coutinho defending.
Coutinho is defending like Denis currently.
And Dembele and tackling shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, for now. It is so awkward to watch him trying to defend.

And as Hamzah said, how will we play 433 when Messi wants to play in the middle?
In short when you sum everything:
1. Messi in the middle
2. Coutinho, Dembele and Messi not defending
3. opponents will park 2 buses and we don't have a plan B against 2 buses
4. opponents know how to handle our pressure
5. opponents mastered counters against 433
6. our individual quality is weaker than in 2009 or 2011
= basically, you can only get a bad copy of Pep's 433

If people are dreaming about glory days and how we could play as good as back then in 433, imo, that is almost impossible and will never happen again.
If you are satisfied with some bad copy of a former 433, then fine.
But that way, we could also play 442 or something else, because a poor copy of 433 won't be much stronger than other current formations.
Click to expand...

Great post, exactly what I also think and also written (but not so well as you did)
You have highlighted very important points. For exemple our eternal problemm = crosses: I hope we did not buy Dembele as winger so that he can cross.....It is our eternal problem: the opponents close the middle with 10 players and let us play on the winger and cross.... who care ? only Suarez is good in the air! easy job for the defenders
And the problems to play a 4-3-3 with Messi Suarez Dembele Couthino Iniesta........good luck to Valverde
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
BBZ8800 said:
About crosses, Dembele can cross.
But to whom will he cross?
To Messi, Iniesta, Coutinho and similar?
We are the shortest top team in the world.

Suarez is the only guy who can get some arial duels.
Then, compare our Cfs with Cfs of RM or Bayern and you will understand why are we onedimensional and they aren't.
This is why I am constantly asking for SOME stronger midfielders and some stronger Cfs.

When you build a team around Cfs like Aguero and midfielders like Coutinho and Iniesta, you can't do anything else but play shortpasses and throughballs through the middle and on the ground.
And then, when the opponents park 2 buses around their box, you are in big troubles.

When you have Cr7 and Benzema upfront, you can play BOTH Barca's shortpassing game and play some crosses.
Again, this is why, imo, in KO matches RM is miles infront of us in terms of options.

"Barca's way of playing" is quite onedimensional.
It is strong and efficient, though.
But when the opponents stop you, we don't have any other ideas.
I love to call Barca's and Pep's style: do the same thing for 100 times in a row and hope for the best.
If it is not working, well, just try to do the same thing for 100 times again and again and hope that it will magically work better this time.
More or less, this is our Plan B since Pep's days. No plan B.
But also, we can't have a plan B due to short and technical players who can play football only in one way.

4. About Dembele and Coutinho defending.
Coutinho is defending like Denis currently.
And Dembele and tackling shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, for now. It is so awkward to watch him trying to defend.

And as Hamzah said, how will we play 433 when Messi wants to play in the middle?
In short when you sum everything:
1. Messi in the middle
2. Coutinho, Dembele and Messi not defending
3. opponents will park 2 buses and we don't have a plan B against 2 buses
4. opponents know how to handle our pressure
5. opponents mastered counters against 433
6. our individual quality is weaker than in 2009 or 2011
= basically, you can only get a bad copy of Pep's 433

If people are dreaming about glory days and how we could play as good as back then in 433, imo, that is almost impossible and will never happen again.
If you are satisfied with some bad copy of a former 433, then fine.
But that way, we could also play 442 or something else, because a poor copy of 433 won't be much stronger than other current formations.
Click to expand...

You're overthinking things. I can easily make an argument that it is Madrid who are one dimensional because their attacks are focused on crosses. They've been caught out numerous occasions this year just by somebody putting Marcelo and Carvajal in their pockets. Benzema is not a good header of the ball but Ronaldo is though.

And I think you're getting away with the whole Pep Barça thing. Nobody expects us to play like that. We just don't have the personnel to do it in that fashion and that team was by a country mile the best club team ever assembled.

The reason so many of us want the 4-3-3 back (not Pep's 4-3-3 but the 4-3-3 from earlier in the season) is because our midfield and ability to dominate games in that area is greatly diminished with this double pivot. I say double pivot because Valverde has used 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1 recently and it just hasn't worked out. I think you'll be the first to admit that. We're being overrun in midfield and I've never seen as many counters attacks per game as I've seen recently.

Messi's output has gone to the shitter, Alba and Roberto as the sole suppliers of width are running themselves to death, Iniesta as a wide player is expected to now cover large amounts of ground, Paulinho is not being used as a box to box player any longer where he can make runs off Messi. Gomes is also playing in wide areas... The 4-3-3 False 9 from earlier in the season was a lot better in terms balance than this shit show we have going now. The only players that can be happy with the double pivot are Rakitic and Suárez.
 
M

MessiCam

Guest
MagIX said:
And the problems to play a 4-3-3 with Messi Suarez Dembele Couthino Iniesta........good luck to Valverde
Click to expand...

So where do they play in a 4-4-2? Playing a different formation doesn't mean you can field an extra player...
 
DonAK

DonAK

President of FC Barcelona
His house is right next to Suarez and Messi's and Suarez said Messi had great security.

Those guys must be professionals lol. In broad daylight too.
 
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