GiantKiller
New member
Don't bother.
Sheikh Ya Bootayy
New member
I know what overrated means, it's fairly self explanatory. People are rating both players too highly. Arsenal fans are saying Wilshere will be the best midfielder in the world in a few years, when Thiago and Veratti are about the same age and probably better than he is. And you yourself have just said that Hughes looks "every bit as talented as Wilshere", which is an insane overestimation of his talent. And that's before we get to the people in the media claiming than Barca are mointoring him. Yeah fucking right, course they are!
Just as many people on here hype up Barca youth as we English do their own youngsters. Fact.
Sheikh Ya Bootayy
New member
Reasoned counter argument? Do you class ridiculing other people's posts and posting facepalms etc as reasoned? Wow.
S
Smile
Guest
I made a counter-argument to Jenks at the time he made the riduclous point about Wales producing better talent than England, he played it off. So why bother? How do you even debate something as ridicoulous as that though 
Jenks clearly isn't English (which he claims to be), to say what he did and call every English young player 'overrated' including Wilshere tells me he is more than likely Welsh.
As for hyping up, there's nothing wrong with that. What i don't get (on this forum) when a player clearly has talent this talent gets played off just because where this player is from or what club they play for. For all the dislike of all things English here, 1 thing is for sure we English are probably the most humble fans out there. When one of our teams get beat, we say we got beat. When we get outplayed, we say we get outplayed. Same with our press (for all that gets called here too), it's one of the most humble media's out there in defeat, is other countrys media like that?
The problem is the other home nations (Wales/Scotland/Ireland) outside England don't like the English to feel a bit of pride or optimism before a World Cup and don't like us to feel a bit pride and optimism at our future so play it off, hence why a huge number of Irish/Welsh and Scottish folk are on here aligning themselves with clubs like Barcelona and Spain, so they can jump on the bandwagon, doing this
arty1: at their sucess over England and the PL should it happen.
Jenks clearly isn't English (which he claims to be), to say what he did and call every English young player 'overrated' including Wilshere tells me he is more than likely Welsh.As for hyping up, there's nothing wrong with that. What i don't get (on this forum) when a player clearly has talent this talent gets played off just because where this player is from or what club they play for. For all the dislike of all things English here, 1 thing is for sure we English are probably the most humble fans out there. When one of our teams get beat, we say we got beat. When we get outplayed, we say we get outplayed. Same with our press (for all that gets called here too), it's one of the most humble media's out there in defeat, is other countrys media like that?
The problem is the other home nations (Wales/Scotland/Ireland) outside England don't like the English to feel a bit of pride or optimism before a World Cup and don't like us to feel a bit pride and optimism at our future so play it off, hence why a huge number of Irish/Welsh and Scottish folk are on here aligning themselves with clubs like Barcelona and Spain, so they can jump on the bandwagon, doing this
arty1: at their sucess over England and the PL should it happen.
Jenks
Senior Member
Smile these paranoid delusions you seem to have would be comical if they weren't so creepy. I'm English, I've said nothing to suggest that I'm not, and the only reason you (and you're alone by the way) are saying I'm not English is because in the face of any sort of reasoned arguments you desperately start looking for a ways to dismiss them and avoid any sort of adult debate. My nationality being one distractionary tactic you use, bizarrely bringing up arbitrary points I made in other threads another. You simply lurch from one logical fallacy to another.
I never said Wales produces better talent than England, I said Wales' youth system is not as far behind it's peers as ours is, which it isn't. The Welsh set-up emphasizes technique and ball retention while ours is largely still geared toward kick and rush football. England have better players than countries like Wales and Denmark by virtue of having a much larger population and having much larger clubs with more resources, and little else. Our youth system miles off the pace, and we'll be playing catch-up for the next ten years or so.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. What does that have to do with anything?
I was ridiculing the media for suggesting Barca were monitoring Hughes, not Smile. The thread didn't get personal until Smile went on a bizarre rant claiming that I'm not English, that I haven't watched Hughes, and that he apparently can't take me seriously. It was pathetic to say the least.
I never said Wales produces better talent than England, I said Wales' youth system is not as far behind it's peers as ours is, which it isn't. The Welsh set-up emphasizes technique and ball retention while ours is largely still geared toward kick and rush football. England have better players than countries like Wales and Denmark by virtue of having a much larger population and having much larger clubs with more resources, and little else. Our youth system miles off the pace, and we'll be playing catch-up for the next ten years or so.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. What does that have to do with anything?
I was ridiculing the media for suggesting Barca were monitoring Hughes, not Smile. The thread didn't get personal until Smile went on a bizarre rant claiming that I'm not English, that I haven't watched Hughes, and that he apparently can't take me seriously. It was pathetic to say the least.
Sheikh Ya Bootayy
New member
Welsh set-up? Is that some kind of joke? The vast majority of welsh players come from the English set-up and English clubs... Don't think Gareth Bale, Ryan Giggs etc came from TNS (do they even have an academy?).
If you followed the English National game at all you would realise the emphasis has changed dramatically, look at time and money being spent on new coaches and coaching techniques to improve young english technique. Just look at St George's Park as an example of times changing. The improvements won't be seen at senior level for some time for obvious reasons, but to say we are still just kick and rush shows your ignorance.
You actually sound like a 14 year old kid with a thesaurus btw.
S
Smile
Guest
They aren't reasoned arguments though and everything you have said (crazy as they are) i've 'tried' to debate with you and 'tried' to make you see sense, yet you still come out with the same thing, ie:- I'm the one who dismisses debates and avoids what you have say, i wish i bloody did
But if you keep persisting, let's go back and see who really avoids and dismisses. I'll even lay it all out at once for you, so it's right there in your face and see if that penetrates, you said (and i quote):-
Then i replied "Wales not far behind who?"
and you went:-
Then i (and others) replied with
<--- BUT i made a reply to you more or less saying the exact same thing Sheikh Ya Bootayy said above and you never replied to it. YET less than 24 hours later say to me in another thread, it is me who avoids debates (ie on this) and I'M looking for ways to dismiss them, what planet are you on lad? Ramsey/Allen (shite as they are) are all products of English football, so is Gareth Bale. Cardiff/Swansea, Welsh teams by name but all English teams playing in the PL (an English football league) and under FA (English footballing association) rules and regulations. IF Swansea or Cardiff was ever allowed to play in Europe under the PL banner, they wouldn't be representing Wales, they would be representing England and English football. If they won a European trophy it wouldn't be a European trophy for Wales it would be classed as a European trophy for the English Premier League and English football and would have a St Georges cross next to the year when you look it up on Wiki, in the same way Monaco (non French city) are a (and i quote) "a French football club" and Monaco's European Cups counts as European trophy's for French football.. A Spanish flag is in the history books when Barcelona won the Champions League even though the Catalonians don't even class themselves as Spanish and want independence from Spain.
I don't even know why I'm going into that though, but you get the point? Welsh players playing in the ENGLISH football leagues are products of the ENGLISH youth system, taught on ENGLISH soil and have had ENGLISH money invested on them, everything ENGLISH & Welsh nothing, so do you see by you saying all what you did on the Wales being above the England in terms of youth development sounds ridiculous to everyone and should you if (BIG if
) you are English aswell? Football terms the Welsh don't even have an identity, you might aswell call Wales and Scotland 'England's rejects' and 'England's X and Z team', as for Ireland well they just log on ancestry.co.uk and see if any English players who aren't good enough to play for England have any great great great great great grandparents who are Irish.
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S
Smile
Guest
Also the sooner we get past this tiki-taka way as being ‘the right way’ to play football the better. If Wales are trying to emulate Spain then I’m afraid it’s them who are falling behind not England.
What England are trying to do is become more technical whilst not losing the thing that makes us ‘English’ and I believe we are now seeing the results, the Jack Wilshere type footballer, could be a Spanish footballer technically but still has all the qualities a Steven Gerrard type player has and the old English central midfielder.
Same with Will Hughes as per our other disagreement. I see these qualities in him too which is why i compared him to Wilshere, players like McEachran and Cleverley have these qualities too, it's like we have created a new breed of central midfielder that are all very similar in style and is now 'English', you cannot see this though since you are seemingly limited to only appreciate 1 style of football.
What England are trying to do is become more technical whilst not losing the thing that makes us ‘English’ and I believe we are now seeing the results, the Jack Wilshere type footballer, could be a Spanish footballer technically but still has all the qualities a Steven Gerrard type player has and the old English central midfielder.
Same with Will Hughes as per our other disagreement. I see these qualities in him too which is why i compared him to Wilshere, players like McEachran and Cleverley have these qualities too, it's like we have created a new breed of central midfielder that are all very similar in style and is now 'English', you cannot see this though since you are seemingly limited to only appreciate 1 style of football.
Jenks
Senior Member
No, but Allen and Ramsey did. I was also talking more about their national set-up. If you've actually watched the youth teams of England and Wales, you see how stark the difference is.
I know all about the EPPP, St. George's Park and The Future Game Document, I actually made a thread about them. The point is this new generation of coaches and coaching techniques will take at least a decade before we start reaping any rewards. The EPPP was only introduced this season after all, and even then only in part so far.
Weren't you complaining about ridicule a minute ago?
Jenks
Senior Member
Then i (and others) replied with
You're doing now exactly what I've said you've been doing. You're waffling about something that was said in another thread for no good reason. Also, no one laughed at the notion that the Welsh youth set-up is ahead of ours, they laughed at the idea that Ramsey and Allen are better than Cleverley. I never replied because there was nothing to reply to. I know that English clubs take on the bulk of Wales best youngsters, that was never in dispute. I was talking about the Welsh youth set-up, not their clubs. Also, leaving a discussion be is hardly the same as continuing it but substituting proper debate for straw man arguments and ad hominem attacks.
Ramsey/Allen (shite as they are) are all products of English football, so is Gareth Bale. Cardiff/Swansea, Welsh teams by name but all English teams playing in the PL (an English football league) and under FA (English footballing association) rules and regulations. IF Swansea or Cardiff was ever allowed to play in Europe under the PL banner, they wouldn't be representing Wales, they would be representing England and English football. If they won a European trophy it wouldn't be a European trophy for Wales it would be classed as a European trophy for the English Premier League and English football and would have a St Georges cross next to the year when you look it up on Wiki, in the same way Monaco (non French city) are a (and i quote) "a French football club" and Monaco's European Cups counts as European trophy's for French football.. A Spanish flag is in the history books when Barcelona won the Champions League even though the Catalonians don't even class themselves as Spanish and want independence from Spain.
I don't even know why I'm going into that though, but you get the point? Welsh players playing in the ENGLISH football leagues are products of the ENGLISH youth system, taught on ENGLISH soil and have had ENGLISH money invested on them, everything ENGLISH & Welsh nothing, so do you see by you saying all what you did on the Wales being above the England in terms of youth development sounds ridiculous to everyone and should you if (BIG if
Football terms the Welsh don't even have an identity, you might aswell call Wales and Scotland 'England's rejects' and 'England's X and Z team', as for Ireland well they just log on ancestry.co.uk and see if any English players who aren't good enough to play for England have any great great great great great grandparents who are Irish.
Youth development starts much earlier than club involvement, it starts with the footballing culture of the country, which is maintained with the youth national teams and to some extent in the clubs themselves. Do you have any knowledge of how Wales have their kids play at youth levels at all? You should watch them. They play progressive, expansive, passing football, while England are still playing with variations of kick and rush and picking the athletes over the technically gifted. If Wales had the resources and the population of England, then they'd be well ahead of us right now. Our youth set up is a joke, but thankfully with recent changes to the youth coaching modules, small-sided games and de-emphasis on winning at all costs that should start to change.
S
Smile
Guest
I’m waffling on because you said I never challenged you on the discussion when I ‘mentioned’ it in this thread, now you see I did, I’m glad we’ve cleared that up
As for your other point, I’ve said on here before English football is a wide range of football styles all rolled into 1, there is nothing to change in our mentality and there is nothing to change in our footballing culture and I for 1 we don’t want our footballing culture to change. If everyone started to try and play tiki-taka football is finished and Spain would still remain supreme because they will be the best at it. Also you’re still persisting that ‘Wales are ahead of us’ ahead of us in what? Once again, football is not just 1 style. Let me tell you, Brazilian kids of tomorrow started doing tiki-taka instead of the thing that makes them Brazilian, Brazilian football is finished and it would be them who are falling behind as they would be trying to emulate a style which they would always be 2nd best at.
The key is becoming more technical whilst still keeping the same qualities that make us, us (in England's case that is not kick and rush I might add).
I disagree about development starting much earlier than club development too, clubs pick players up as young as 9-12, all you can do with a child before that age is put a ball at their feet and tell them to have fun, what you are saying is try and do is teach a little kid to do joined up writing before they can even write, it doesn’t work like that, not in the western world anyway. If we become a nation like China and how they are trying to create Olympic robots, that would be awful and would lose the true meaning what football is all about.
For me development and football education starts at club level (10 to 21) and I am seeing a change in this area, surely this new wave of technically gifted English players tell you that? And once again have we had any problems producing technically gifted players in the past, no? Then not an awful lot needs changing does it?
Jenks
Senior Member
I never said anything about tiki-taka or Spain. I said they play a more progressive and possession based system. Even if that's not one you'd want at senior level, it's certainly one that's much more conducive to player development than direct football is. Yes we should aim to be more technical, and that's partly the point. If you look at some of the English youth teams over the years (slightly less so now), they are made up of kids that are built like men. The emphasis has not been on technical ability or tactical awareness like it has in Wales, it's been on athleticism. That's why we've done quite well in youth competitions where physique will take you a long way, and fall apart at senior level where it won't. It's certainly changing for the better at the moment, but I'd hesitate to declare any sort of "wave of technically gifted English players" right now. We have Wilshere who is a top prospect and technically sound, then slightly lesser players like Welbeck and Sterling, but the volume of talent really isn't there, not when you compare us to other countries anyway.
Huh? We've had absolutely huge problems producing technically gifted players in the past and more so present, that's why so many radical changes have had to have been made. The system until very decently was about 10-20 years behind everyone else's. Players have been taught to get the ball from back to front as quickly as possible for the sake of playing the numbers game, English players on the whole have then gone on to lack fundamental skills that in other countries are taken for granted. How many English mid-fielders can dribble, control tempo, create space for themselves and are comfortable in possession? Scholes and Wilshere, and few else. We've had a set up geared to a simplistic system of fast wing play and direct football that simply doesn't cut it at the highest levels, that's why England get found out at major tournaments and have traditionally been so incapable of keeping the ball.
S
Smile
Guest
England have always put a lot of emphasis on the physical side of the game in the past I’ll give you that, but that is only due to the physical demands of the Premier League, that cannot change or we’d just be Arsenal, but there needs to be a balance. To me you just seem to really underrate our coaching, we take 15/16 year old foreign kids and turn them into some of the best players in the world, even our own are some of the best players in the world in their area of expertise.
As for England not producing technical players in the past, how old are you? You must be young. Just take a look in the legend thread to see a few. In the 60’s/70’s/80’s and 90’s there have been a wide gulf of English players with fantastic technical ability, the problem has been last 10 years but even then we have produced players who have stood out on the world stage & have decided outcomes in the biggest stages there is in football (Champions League finals).
I put England not producing recent times just as dry spell, more so than something actually wrong at grass roots, Brazil have also gone through a dry patch, yet with the new wave of Brazilian players coming through there’s light at the end of the tunnel, same with England, Spain will have one one day (they have in the past).
As for England’s failures in the past was that actually to do with talent or more so being unlucky in semi-finals and quarter-finals on penalty shootouts? Some occasions even getting to penalty’s with a man down or controversial decision’s such as goals being disallowed/hand of gods. For all the times we got to penalties against Germany’s & Argentina’s England was never outplayed, always gave as good as we got and SHOULD have won. So with a bit more luck England could have had at the very least a European Cup and another World Cup last 20 years, so all this says to me England can and DO compete and nothing drastically needs changing, the only time England have looked pathetic is at the last World and European Championships. What needs to change is us practicing penalty’s or seeing a bloody witch doctor or something to change our fortunes.
As for England not producing technical players in the past, how old are you? You must be young. Just take a look in the legend thread to see a few. In the 60’s/70’s/80’s and 90’s there have been a wide gulf of English players with fantastic technical ability, the problem has been last 10 years but even then we have produced players who have stood out on the world stage & have decided outcomes in the biggest stages there is in football (Champions League finals).
I put England not producing recent times just as dry spell, more so than something actually wrong at grass roots, Brazil have also gone through a dry patch, yet with the new wave of Brazilian players coming through there’s light at the end of the tunnel, same with England, Spain will have one one day (they have in the past).
As for England’s failures in the past was that actually to do with talent or more so being unlucky in semi-finals and quarter-finals on penalty shootouts? Some occasions even getting to penalty’s with a man down or controversial decision’s such as goals being disallowed/hand of gods. For all the times we got to penalties against Germany’s & Argentina’s England was never outplayed, always gave as good as we got and SHOULD have won. So with a bit more luck England could have had at the very least a European Cup and another World Cup last 20 years, so all this says to me England can and DO compete and nothing drastically needs changing, the only time England have looked pathetic is at the last World and European Championships. What needs to change is us practicing penalty’s or seeing a bloody witch doctor or something to change our fortunes.
To produce 3 or so technical players every decade does not mean you are producing technical players, look at Spain,Italy,france, Argentina to name a few even their second division players are technical good, that what it means to produce players thus you have a much deeper poll to pick from unlike England that produce a few and everyone shits themself when one looks good and call them the next whoever.
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