Bayern München

[Yannik]

There's evidence. The evidence isn't rigorous? Sure, because there's no systematic (scientific) method of evaluating this.

What Bayern has over Barca:

1) Early European cup success and 1 more CL (although Barca did play in CL finals before Bayern AFAIK. Nevertheless, history remembers winners)
2) Better CL KO record, although part of this is a function of being involved in more tournaments (prior to the rule change) due to being the de facto best team in Germany.
3) Better H2H record if you want to include that

What Barca has over Bayern
1) CL finals wins v Manchester United x 2 and Juventus
2) More impressive trebles
3) More Ballon d'Or Winners and better cast of legends
4) The 09-11 side is considered by more football managers (e.g., SAF, Wenger) and players and less importantly, fans, as one of the best club sides of all time. The only names I've seen along with them are Milan 80s, Ajax 70s, RM 50s, and sometimes ZZ's RM.
5) The difference in CLs in 1. But 4 of our titles have come in a tougher, "modern" era while Bayern has 3 in the same.
6) 26 League titles v Real Madrid, who is the best club of all time.

Stuff like "more impressive trebles" or "tougher era" is just vibes. And quite frankly: I think sides from early 2000s looked great back then, but would shit the bed today. Everything in the sport gradually improves with every decade passing: Speed, strength, nutrition, medicine, tactic, technology, analytics etc

 

[KingLeo10]

Stuff like "more impressive trebles" or "tougher era" is just vibes. And quite frankly: I think sides from early 2000s looked great back then, but would shit the bed today.

It's not vibes. We have to compete with RM and lately AM for a treble. Bayern competes with Dortmund.

On average, Barca faces a higher level of competition than Bayern.

In 14/15, we beat a 92 point RM (CL holders) and AM (CL finalists) in LL and Copa. And then beat City, PSG, Bayern, and Juve in the usual CL format.

In 19/20, Bayern had to go through a meh Dortmund and the only strong opponent in the CL was PSG. Barca in name I guess but terrible as an actual team.

How is this not evidence?

 

[Xaviniesta]

the last time bayern had actual competition in that farmer's league was in 2013 lmao

been hoarding the top players ever since

 

[malvolio]

Lewa, Auba, Perisic, Hummels and then you can make an argument for Pulisic performing significantly better for Chelsea than he did for Dortmund.

perisic i wouldn't call a massive success. maybe because he's just a ok/good player but not top tier.

not many players, when you look at how most of their promising kids are hyped year after year.

 

[Xaviniesta]

It's not vibes. We have to compete with RM and lately AM for a treble. Bayern competes with Dortmund.

On average, Barca faces a higher level of competition than Bayern.

In 14/15, we beat a 92 point RM (CL holders) and AM (CL finalists) in LL and Copa. And then beat City, PSG, Bayern, and Juve in the usual CL format.

In 19/20, Bayern had to go through a meh Dortmund and the only strong opponent in the CL was PSG. Barca in name I guess but terrible as an actual team.

How is this not evidence?

dont forget they had a month off while all the other leagues were still on-going

 

[Yannik]

perisic i wouldn't call a massive success. maybe because he's just a ok/good player but not top tier.

Perisic been one of Inters best players for several years and also played great at Bayern. And Croatia not to forget, especially in that one world cup.

not many players, when you look at how most of their promising kids are hyped year after year.

Dembele, Sahin, Kagawa, Mikhi, G?tze, am I missing anyone?

That makes around 6 players that turned out good (because I forgot to add G?ndogan) and 5 players that turned out bad.
What is supposed to be the norm here? Is there a club where all sales turn out great?

 

[KingLeo10]

By the way, Bayern's 12/13 treble was impressive. Because that Dortmund was strong. And y'all destroyed Barca and Juventus.

But 19/20...nah. It's a good treble but nothing special like the ones for Barca, United (very underrated and could very well be the best of the lot), Inter, Bayern 12/13.

 

[olivis]

It's not vibes. We have to compete with RM and lately AM for a treble. Bayern competes with Dortmund.

On average, Barca faces a higher level of competition than Bayern.

In 14/15, we beat a 92 point RM (CL holders) and AM (CL finalists) in LL and Copa. And then beat City, PSG, Bayern, and Juve in the usual CL format.

In 19/20, Bayern had to go through a meh Dortmund and the only strong opponent in the CL was PSG. Barca in name I guess but terrible as an actual team.

How is this not evidence?

On a historical point of view this isn't so much the case though. Bundesliga has diminished over the past 20 years but in the 70's were definitely the strongest league in the world and in the 80's were better than the Spanish league too.

What Bundesliga lacks is a 2nd powerhouse.

 

[Xaviniesta]

By the way, Bayern's 12/13 treble was impressive. Because that Dortmund was strong. And y'all destroyed Barca and Juventus.

But 19/20...nah. It's a good treble but nothing special like the ones for Barca, United (very underrated and could very well be the best of the lot), Inter, Bayern 12/13.

i rate the 12/13 bayern team more than the current one as well. if they had this current version of lewandowski then they would have been a top 2 team of all time.

 

[Yannik]

i rate the 12/13 bayern team more than the current one as well. if they had this current version of lewandowski then they would have been a top 2 team of all time.

Well I'd have to agree.
2013 was certainly more complete. The lack of Lewandowski was at least countered with Robbery, the defense is vastly superior, Neuer is still Neuer, Alaba was balling and Heynckes > Flick.
Lewandowski and Kimmich would walk into the 2013 side though, they are that good.

 

[Joan]

Jupp's treble was certainly more impressive than this one, subjectively speaking. It remains one of the best, most effective teams I've seen. Winning other less important titles is nice, but don't pay much attention to it myself.

Speaking of international successes, Bayern has certainly outdone Barca. So have Madrid, Milan, ane Liverpool. Barca failed at getting the most out of its golden generation. Looking back at it, at least three all time greats were part of the team: Messi, Iniesta, and Xavi. And the rest wasn't far behind. I believe Alves will be remembered as an excellent player in his position, so will happen with Busquets and Puyol. Not to go any further. Madrid did more with theirs, even though it was a weaker team by all standards.

 

[Barcilliant]

My God. As a club Barca have underachieved and Bayern have over achieved.
The amount of stars and talent we've had over the years we should have at least 2 more Cl.
Our problems are
Lack of a solid defense. Too attacking at times
Entitled attitude
Not enough physicality and over reliance in the passing game.

 

[Luftstalag14]

Better just deal with it, Bayern has outdone you as a club.

What is even the point of this post? Because they won their sextuple? So? They have won one more CL than us too, where were you last year? You guys have won many more CLs than us, so? What are we supposed to do? Cry? Fill out applications to become Bayern fans and shout that mia san mia scheisse and better yet, become fucking Madridistas because they have more trophies than us?

Outdone us as a club? haha, what the heck does that mean? What are the fans of those clubs who have got less trophies or even no trophy at all supposed to do? They don't mean anything?

What a silly post.

 

[KingLeo10]

I see people have assembled here with the "we wasted our golden generation".

3 CLs, 5 league titles, 4-5 CDR, 2 trebles between 08 and 15 (where we had Messi, Xavi, Iniesta) is wasting a generation now? Maybe if your only criterion is CL trophies.

Madrid in their golden era won 4 CL and 1 league title in 5 years.

Pool in their golden era have won 1 CL and 1 league in 3.5 years so far.

Bayern have won 2 CL over the last 12 years of their 2 golden eras.

 

[Joan]

Barca's team was one of the very best. Whatever way you choose to look at it. Others mentioned bellow that, if you ask me. Madrid's team, the best one among the group, doesn't come close to Barca's prime. And yet they outdone us badly in the CL. League titles are important, but that's rarely the major objecive with such a team. Valverde did well to win the league back to back, Koeman's title would be an achievement. For Pep's team, was a bare minimum. We could've gotten more out of it.